Akraen

Some Guidance on L90s - Alternative use of Incanter's Ward

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Out of 60 sec, you have 58 sec, or 2 gcds being used on one channel. Let's be generous to IW here and say 57 sec and 3 gcds (round up) to allow for lag or low haste (people forget the value of haste to invoker's energy uptime).

 

You can't calculate any specific value to using Invocation over IW. But what you can do is start with a formula like this:

 

DPPE(IW) = 60 * AVG[ DPS(Frostbolt) + DPET(FoF) + DPET(FFB) ]

Ignore LB/NT, or it gets confusing. You can use weighted averages if you want a more specific number, but this works.

DPET(IE) = 57 * AVG[ DPS(Frostbolt) + DPET(FoF) + DPET(FFB) ]

DPPE means Damage Per Passive Effect, basically DPET but you don't actually hit a button for it.

 

So hypothetically, around ilvl 570 it will work out like this (icicles included, 6% and 15% buffs included):

DPPE(IW) = 60 * AVG[ 143793 + 224888 + 306450 ]

DPPE(IW) = 13,502,620

 

DPET(IE) = 57 * AVG[ 156003 + 243982 + 332471 ]

DPET(IE) = 13,916,664

 

So in one minute, you'll lose roughly 2.975% DPS by using Incanter's Ward passive.

 

This also means, that procs & cooldowns aside, if you struggle to maintain a 95% uptime on Invoker's Energy, you might as well swap over to Incanter's Ward and use it strictly passively.

 

This is also a useful L90 talent for arcane if you can't stand the RoP.

 

For fire:

AVG[ DPS(Fireball) + DPET(Pyroblast) + DPET(Inferno Blast) ]

 

For arcane:

AVG[ DPS(Arcane Blast) + DPET(Ar. Barrage) + DPS(Arcane Missiles) ]

 

Plug in your stats here to get the numbers needed for the above formulas to help guide you on calculating the difference between the talents.

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If someone is struggling to keep 95% uptime on IE, that might as well just stop raiding... biggrin.png

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Did you not see my Analysis Week posts? I'd say a majority of mages out there don't meet the mark.

 

I'd rather see people switch to IW and focus on playing well in other regards, learning Alter Time (much bigger yield) and mastering the rest of the class before reintroducing RoP or Invoc to their rotations.

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Nice post Akraen.

 

It took me a while to figure out what you were trying to say with the post, so in case anyone else is strugling, here's the easyread version:

 

This post will help Frost Mages choose between Invocation and Incanter's Ward as your level 90 talent.

 

If you use Invocation, your spell damage is increased by 15%, but you need to spend around 3 seconds every minute to reapply the buff, so you can only cast damaging spells 57 seconds out of every minute.

 

If you use Incanter's Ward just for the passive effect, your spell damage is only increased by 6%, but you can cast spells every second (60 seconds out of every minute).

 

In other words, Invocation will let you cast fewer spells every minute, but they will hit harder.

 

Akraen's math shows that if you have near-perfect uptime on Invocation (up for 95% of the encounter), you will do around 3% more dps by using this talent over Incanter's Ward. If you are not good at keeping up the buff, or if encounter mecanics prevent it, it will be more useful to use Incanter's Ward just for the passive effect.

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Ok, lets get mathy again.

 

I tested this out with some arcane numbers, and I think I found out that even though your formulas are correct, they are overly complicated, and the same results can be found in a much simpler way.

 

When I did my tests, I assumed that I would cast two runes every minute, so the formula would be the same, more or less. It was a bit of a pain to figure out which numbers I should use for Blast, Barrage and Missiles, since they change depending on how many Arcane Charges I have. In my first try, I used the following:

 

AVG[ DPS(Arcane Blast 1 charge) + DPS(Arcane Blast 2 charges) + DPS(Arcane Blast 3 charges) + DPS(Arcane Blast 4 charges) + DPET(Ar. Barrage 4 charges) + DPS(Arcane Missiles  4 charges) ]

 

I tested this with the numbers from the Lhivera page with my own stats, and then compared the numbers with 57 second to cast when using Rune and 60 seconds when using Ward.

 

The result: Using Ward would be a 2.977% dps loss.

 

I tested again with my stats and a simpler formula:

 

AVG[ DPS(Arcane Blast 4 charges) + DPET(Ar. Barrage 4 charges) + DPS(Arcane Missiles  4 charges) ]

 

The result: Using Ward would be a 2.975% dps loss.

 

Since the point is to compare the percentages between the two talens, I tested a much simpler solution to finding this number. Assuming a fictional base dps of 100, the two talents can be compared as follows:

 

DPPE(IW) = 60 * 106 = 6360

DPET(IE/RoP) = 57 * 115 = 6555

 

When looking at these numbers, damage loss by using IW passive is 2.975%

 

In your post you said that

You can't calculate any specific value to using Invocation over IW

 

 

But I believe that is exactly what you ended up doing :) Using IW over the other two talents will be a 3% damage loss, if you can keep RoP or IE at near-perfect uptime.

 

I have never as much as dabbled in any form of theorycrafting, so please correct me wherever I might be wrong.

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You still can't. This is a very simplified model for the impact of scaling up spells with an upkeep buff.

 

It is much more complicated to add in DPM calculations of Frozen Orb, Arcane Power, Icy Veins (takes calculus for this one), Combustion, Ignite/Icicles (calculus again), and the Mage Bombs. Trinket procs complicate it even more, and don't even try to contemplate Alter Time :)

 

The real model is far more complex. I just reduced it down to the influence of the upkeep buffs on direct actions that are always available to the caster.

 

I predict the real difference to be around 5%, +/- 3% depending on timing/RNG.

 

While your further reduction provides an accurate number, I find it best to illustrate the actual impact on spells, or people just flat-out won't believe me. Or maybe I'm just too conditioned by MMO-Champion posters, I expect their pitchforks and trolls with each post I make there :P

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If someone is struggling to keep 95% uptime on IE, that might as well just stop raiding... biggrin.png

 

But I dont use Internet Explorer anymore :(

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Yea, I know it's a simplified model, but I just wanted to make it even simpler, so people didn't have to start doing the bigger calculations. And if you had just posted the formula I found, I would probably have asked how you found it smile.png So of course it's not definate that the damage loss is exactly 3%, but the fact that this model shows it fairly close really surprised me.

 

A bit more math, I looked at the mana regen for Arcane as well, since that is kinda important for us. RoP gives 75% extra mana while standing in the rune. IW gives 65% mana regen as passive effect. This means that the breakpoint for IW passive to give better mana regen than IW is at 0,65/0,75 = 0,86, or 86%. If there's a fight where you are unable to stand in your rune 86% of the time, the IW passive will actually give more mana regen than the rune over the entire fight.

 

I tried out IW on Thok HC today, and it worked out great, I had to be a little more careful at the beginning of phase ones, but the phase twos went much smoother than when I used rune.

 

(btw, did IW always give this much passive mana? I literally just noticed this today because of this discussion)

 

Edit: also, I don't think the Icy Veins community is that pitchforky :)

Edited by Gambolputty

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Yea, I know it's a simplified model, but I just wanted to make it even simpler, so people didn't have to start doing the bigger calculations. And if you had just posted the formula I found, I would probably have asked how you found it smile.png So of course it's not definate that the damage loss is exactly 3%, but the fact that this model shows it fairly close really surprised me.

 

A bit more math, I looked at the mana regen for Arcane as well, since that is kinda important for us. RoP gives 75% extra mana while standing in the rune. IW gives 65% mana regen as passive effect. This means that the breakpoint for IW passive to give better mana regen than IW is at 0,65/0,75 = 0,86, or 86%. If there's a fight where you are unable to stand in your rune 86% of the time, the IW passive will actually give more mana regen than the rune over the entire fight.

 

I tried out IW on Thok HC today, and it worked out great, I had to be a little more careful at the beginning of phase ones, but the phase twos went much smoother than when I used rune.

 

(btw, did IW always give this much passive mana? I literally just noticed this today because of this discussion)

 

Edit: also, I don't think the Icy Veins community is that pitchforky smile.png

yes, it give mana regen when you don't have its damage increasing bufff up :)

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@Gamolputty really made this easier to understand what u meant akrean haha
i have question about semi-related thing about this

 

Let's say i get meta proc and on 0 sec (so before its gone) i do evocation althought i have like 5 sec left of invoke's energy

would that be dps loss or its better to do evocation on 2 sec before invoke's energy goes off despite the fact i lost meta gem proc and my casting time will be longer?

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Hi all,

 

So I've lurked around for a while, but figured I would make a contribution here (please feel free to correct me if i'm wrong):

 

To simplify things, since the lvl 90 talents increase spell DAMAGE and not int/spellpower, we don't need to grab exact values on our spells at all, since they will modify everything by the same amount.

 

The equations up top can be simplified to (assuming 0 haste for a 3s evocation cast time):

 

60/63 * 1.15 * DPS = 1.0952 DPS (or a 9.52% increase from base DPS)

Compared to 1.06, or 6% increase from base DPS for Incanter's Ward.

 

This makes a 3.3% drop in DPS to switch to Incanter's Ward from Invoker's Energy (assuming perfect uptime on the spell damage buff)

 

The thing to look at is at what skill level is switching to incanter's ward from invoker's energy a dps increase.

 

36 seconds of buff with a 3s evocation for 39s dps "cycles"

36/39 * 1.15 * DPS = 1.0615 DPS

 

60 seconds of buff with 37 seconds of no buff and a 3s evocation for 100s dps "cycles"

[60/100 * 1.15 * DPS] + [37/100 * 1 * DPS] = 1.06 DPS

 

What is shown above is that unless you are using evocation more then 24 seconds early or more then 37 seconds late (~60% uptime), you will lose dps by switching.

 

I propose that the margin of error on keeping up the buff from evocation is large, that it would pretty much never be a dps increase to switch to invokers energy and keep it on passive, regardless of player skill.

 

(I've got this all on a spreadsheet if anyone wants to see the numbers)

 

PS - Blackd,

 

If my numbers are correct, an evocation with the meta is about equal in dps per "cycle" as a non buffed one (at 50%haste - 2s evocation) if you cast it up to 13 seconds before the buff expires.  So I would keep early casting evocation when the meta proc ends, even up to 12 or so seconds left on Invoker's Energy.

 

*Sorry about formatting and such, I'm pretty much a forum noob.*

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Since 5.4, rune is much more flexible and IW ceases to be a viable option.

 

IMOYMMV.

 

If you're going to grandstand be sure to define your terms. Define "viable" in your mind.

 

See, because the thing is, a lot of mages I analyze from LFR up to heroics and everything in between struggle to maintain even 70% uptime on Invoker's Energy, which tells me that the inferior but passive talent is most certainly viable.

 

Yes, obviously, if you're good at your uptimes there is no reason to use IW. However, it's a practical alternative for those learning or finding it too frustrating/difficult to get high uptime on Invoker's.

 

Also wtf is IMOYMMV, "In Manchester's Ossuary Your Mom Meticulously Vacuums?" Unless you're on a phone from ten years ago I don't see the reason to come up with such ridiculous acronyms.

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Also wtf is IMOYMMV, "In Manchester's Ossuary Your Mom Meticulously Vacuums?" Unless you're on a phone from ten years ago I don't see the reason to come up with such ridiculous acronyms.

 

Nice to see that I'm not the onyl one who didn't get that acronym, so I am not tooo old :)

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Hi guys.

You finally forced this lurker to register with this discussion.

Akraen was very careful in his wording in the orginal post: using Incanter's Ward ON PASSIVE is about a 3% dps loss. Since then though, many people have been repeating that without the qualifier, which is no longer accurate.

As most of you are aware, when you actually use IW you put a barrier which absorbs a small amount of incoming damage (which, I read, takes precedence over Ice Shield), and based on how much damage there was, gives up to a 15% damage boost. The result is the math works out quite differently.

If we assume fights with fairly regular and predicable damage coming in - like heroic norushen or phase 2 of Galakras - then let's assume that we can use IW up to 2 times a minute. During this time, we'll have 60 GCDs.

2 - GCDs will be spent on casting IW

2x25 - GCDs will be spent at casting with 15% buff

8 - GCDs will be benefit from the 6% passive effect

Thus:

50/60*1.15 + 8/60*1.06 = 1.0996

This 9.96% increase is actually greater than the 9.5% of Evocation. With full boss co-operation and full uptime of the 15% buff, 25/26*1.15 = 1.1057 (10.57% increase). At only 1 per minute, you're looking at about an 8% dps increase (or only a 1.5% loss).

There are several assumptions here of course. First is the obvious - there needs to be steady incoming damage. Second, not absorbing the full amount is a disaster - you do not get the 15% and you lose your 6% passive - but let's be honest and if you're forced to interrupt the evocation channel to move out of a void zone you have the same problem.

All these assumptions are of course on the assumption of a 6 second cast every 2 minutes of Evocation. But this number reduces with haste. Somewhere around a 3-4 second channel it will pull ahead of IW which is GCD capped.

There is another benefit to IW though, and that is the shield. It doesn't stop much damage, but sometimes every little bit helps to keep you alive sometimes.

So whichever talent people choose, they can usually make it work to give comparable numbers. It all comes down to preferred play style and the boss you're currently working on.

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I think that 95% of arcane mages would agree that RoP is the go to talent, what i'm interested in knowing is that in a heavy movement fight, where you may have to re-cast RoP say more than twice a minute, would the passive IW be better over the course of the whole fight? 

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Nice to see that I'm not the onyl one who didn't get that acronym, so I am not tooo old smile.png

Sorry, been away for a bit; in my opinion, your mileage may vary. Not a gaming term and I sometimes forget when I use it. And I am the old one.biggrin.png

 

I also apologize if I appeared to be grandstanding. Sometimes I just give short answers and don't qualify my data. I have tried back and forth, and I have not gotten the same performance from IVE. However, I finally got some upgrades and was able to respec closer to the haste cap and have noted a definite difference. Perhaps it is time for me to stop being lazy and stubborn and trying again.wink.png

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some fights IW is clearly better ..... iron jugg for example. Other fights as well when the aoe dmg cycles are predictable and coincide with IW cd.

but for sure, anyone using invocation on iron jugg is 100% doing it wrong in absolutely every way shape and form. Just use your head. Most of the time IW great, but sometimes it's the go to.

btw I'm talking about heroic iron jugg. IW may not be the best for normal, I don't remember normal and what it's like / the differences.

thok is also a fight where IW is obviously the go to talent.

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some fights IW is clearly better ..... iron jugg for example. Other fights as well when the aoe dmg cycles are predictable and coincide with IW cd.

but for sure, anyone using invocation on iron jugg is 100% doing it wrong in absolutely every way shape and form. Just use your head. Most of the time IW great, but sometimes it's the go to.

btw I'm talking about heroic iron jugg. IW may not be the best for normal, I don't remember normal and what it's like / the differences.

thok is also a fight where IW is obviously the go to talent.

 

IW is not a "must go to talent" anywhere.

 

It's an alternative.

 

Also, at the bottom of your comments, there is an Edit button. Use that effectively, in order to avoid triple posting.

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