linduc

Living bomb vs Frost bomb

19 posts in this topic

Hey,

In your MoP mage guides you say:

At the moment, Living Bomb is the best choice for single-target DPS, thanks to the 1-second global cooldown that it triggers.

Frost Bomb should be used when you are dealing with 6 enemies or more.

Nether Tempest is currently undertuned and does not perform as well as the other two talents.

According to simcrafts - and my own tests - it seems Frost Bomb deals much more damage. I'd like to ask you what are your reasons to choose Living Bomb instead of Frost Bomb for all spec.

Thanks,

linduc

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A new version of Simcraft was released yesterday or last night, so I went to check it out after reading your post.

I simmed all 3 specs, with all three choices of Tier 5 talents: spell_mage_nethertempest.jpgNether Tempest, ability_mage_livingbomb.jpgLiving Bomb, and spell_mage_frostbomb.jpgFrost Bomb. It turns out that they're now all viable in single-target damage (the difference is like 1%). So I updated the guides to reflect this.

Also, spell_arcane_arcane03.jpgInvocation seems to have become the Tier 6 talent of choice for Fire Mages and the Fire Mage guide has been updated accordingly.

So, thank you for posting your question :)

To answer your question, at the time I did the tests, Living Bomb turned out to be better. The problem with the beta is that it changes too often for us to re-run the tests at every build. We're trying out best, but there's only so much we can do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Invocation is so odd.. If its over-powered, it forces good mages to evocate FULLY every 40 seconds, but if its underpowered (or even overpowered by 1% or some small margin) then it will never get used, because of the simplicity of spell_shadow_detectlesserinvisibility.jpIncanter's Ward and spell_mage_runeofpower.jpgRune of Power

Though, I think Incaters ward will be more preferred regardless for movement heavy fights.

Edited by krazyito65

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for your quick reply. It seems to me there is a bigger difference between these two spells.

And you also say:

For multiple-target damage, Living Bomb will be most suited for when you are fighting between 2 and 4 (or 5) enemies.

Living bomb's target cap is 3 enemies. And the Inferno Blast spreads it to up to 2 nearby enemies.

I didn't tested the Living bombs' explosion damages on multiple targets, I only made one target tests. But I think there are no a lot of raid boss encounters with many targets constantly. This is the other reason why Frost Bomb is better choice (I think).

Fire mage tier 1 talents: If you choose PoM, wouldn't it be better if you use PoM+Pyroblast combo in every 90 seconds? Just because of the Pyroblast dot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Living bomb's target cap is 3 enemies. And the Inferno Blast spreads it to up to 2 nearby enemies.

I didn't tested the Living bombs' explosion damages on multiple targets, I only made one target tests. But I think there are no a lot of raid boss encounters with many targets constantly. This is the other reason why Frost Bomb is better choice (I think).

Let's make a comparison. I'll take the tooltips as they appear on my level 90 Mage.

  • ability_mage_livingbomb.jpgLiving Bomb does 27,830 damage over 13.17 seconds. It explodes for 22,372 damage dealt to up to 3 enemies within 10 yards (including the enemy who was afflicted with Living Bomb).
  • spell_mage_frostbomb.jpgFrost Bomb has a 1.32-second cast, a 8.78-second cooldown, and deals 52,708 damage to the target after 4.39 seconds, and 26,354 damage to all targets within 10 yards (excluding the enemy who was afflicted with Frost Bomb).
If there 2 enemies, it takes 2 seconds exactly to apply Living Bomb on both of them (by casting it twice). Each Living Bomb will do 27,830 + 2x 22,372 = 72,574 damage. So you get to do 145,148 damage by spending 2 seconds casting and you can repeat it every 13.17 seconds.

For the same number of enemies, you will do 52,708 + 26,354 = 79,062 damage with Frost Bomb with a 1.32-second cast and you get to do it only once every 8.78+1.32 = 10.10 seconds.

Here, I think it's better to do 145,148 damage with 2 seconds of casting every 13.17 seconds than 79,062 damage with a 1.32-second cast every 10 seconds. The reason why I think so is because you will fill the rest of the rotation with much less damaging spells, so the longer you can spend casting highly damaging spells, the better.

If there are 3 enemies, it takes 2.32 seconds to apply Living Bomb on all of them (1.0-second initial cast of Living + 1.32-second cast of Fire Blast to spread it). Each Living Bomb will do 27,830 + 3x 22,372 = 94,946 damage. So you get to do 284,838 by spending 2.32 seconds casting and you can repeat it every 13.17 seconds.

For the same number of enemies, you will do 52,708 + 2x 26,354 = 105,416 damage with Frost Bomb with a 1.32-second cast and you get to do it only once every 8.78+1.32 = 10.10 seconds.

Here, I still think Living Bomb is better, as each second spent casting brings you more DPS than for Frost Bomb.

If there are 4 enemies, Frost Bomb does 131,770 and once again brings you slightly more DPS by second spent casting than Living Bomb, but once again, I think that spending more time casting highly damaging spells is important, so I'd go for Living Bomb.

If there are 5 enemies or more, Frost Bomb is the clear winner. I'll update the guide to reflect this.

Fire mage tier 1 talents: If you choose PoM, wouldn't it be better if you use PoM+Pyroblast combo in every 90 seconds? Just because of the Pyroblast dot.

It is, thanks for suggesting it Posted Image

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry if it looks like I don't want to accept your arguments and I'm just wasting your time. But all the simcrafts (http://simulationcraft.org/) use Frost Bomb for all spec. I tried both spells and the results were convincing.

Your numbers are clear and theirs as well. Now, I just have to figure out what to do... :)

Thanks for your time, and you are doing a great job here. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry if it looks like I don't want to accept your arguments and I'm just wasting your time. But all the simcrafts (http://simulationcraft.org/) use Frost Bomb for all spec. I tried both spells and the results were convincing.

Your numbers are clear and theirs as well. Now, I just have to figure out what to do... Posted Image

Thanks for your time, and you are doing a great job here. Posted Image

I'm not sure just how well you can test multiple-target damage with simcraft. How did you test?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. You are right about 2-4 targets, and I accepted it. I was talking about the single target dps. According my own tests (not as optimal as simulations, but I won't do a perfect timed best rotation ever) on raid dummies Frost Bomb did about 6-8% more damage than Living Bomb. That's why I prefer Frost Bomb.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I did some simulation last night and all specs simmed very close.

  • Arcane: 125k (Nether Tempest), 124k (Living Bomb), 126k (Frost Bomb)
  • Fire: 127k (Nether Tempest), 126k (Living Bomb), 126k (Frost Bomb)
  • Frost: 124k (Nether Tempest), 122k (Living Bomb), 124k (Frost Bomb)
3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, as I said, I couldn't do as perfect as simulations could. But I'm glad we could discuss it, and thanks for your help. :)

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm glad I could help. And it's also important to take simulation results with a pinch of salt. The simulation tools are written by human beings, so there's always room for error ;)

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Regardless of what the sims say, in practice, changing from Living Bomb to Nether Tempest made my DPS on a dummy go from 33k to 40k consistently and without effort. I don't think the three talents are created as equal as everyone seems to think... Not sure if there's a tooltip bug preventing proper math from being done, or my gear situation (pretty normal 405 gear) or what. But this is easily the single biggest change I've ever seen on any of my characters, just from one talent change. I mean I did a good 30 minutes on that dummy to be sure. Nether tempest OBLIDERATES Living Bomb.

Edited by TelFiRE

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If there are 3 enemies, it takes 2.32 seconds to apply Living Bomb on all of them (1.0-second initial cast of Living + 1.32-second cast of Fire Blast to spread it). Each Living Bomb will do 27,830 + 3x 22,372 = 94,946 damage. So you get to do 284,838 by spending 2.32 seconds casting and you can repeat it every 13.17 seconds.

Sorry if it's a noob question, but is it better - as you suggest - to instantly spread Living Bomb / force secondary effects on others with Inferno Blast as Fire than to wait for crits and force insta-Pyros? Even at the first application of LB I usually don't spread it instantly, but wait for a crit. Do you have any suggestions?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry if it's a noob question, but is it better - as you suggest - to instantly spread Living Bomb / force secondary effects on others with Inferno Blast as Fire than to wait for crits and force insta-Pyros? Even at the first application of LB I usually don't spread it instantly, but wait for a crit. Do you have any suggestions?

If there are 2 adds next to your LB target, it is definitely worth spreading. The evidence is more or less in your quote. I like to think it would theoretically be a higher damage gain since the explosion hits 3 targets (assuming there are 3 targets when it explodes, we are talking about AoE here right? kinda sorta?).

~Sage

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you have 3 mobs on you, LB all three and you don't need to spread w/Inferno. If there are 1-2 more than the 3 you tagged, go for an Inferno.That's the way I play it (until someone shows me the error of my ways!).

Also keep in mind that 10, yards is a lot smaller than what most "see" in-game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you have 3 mobs on you, LB all three and you don't need to spread w/Inferno. If there are 1-2 more than the 3 you tagged, go for an Inferno.That's the way I play it (until someone shows me the error of my ways!).

Also keep in mind that 10, yards is a lot smaller than what most "see" in-game.

I don't understand why, in your first case, you wouldn't just spread with inferno? I mean, it is 1 less GCD, it means the explosion is sooner (by up to 2 seconds), it's simpler to do and you get additional damage (inferno blast damage on a single target > the 1 tick of LB).

I just don't follow why more than 3 mobs makes it suddenly work Inferno Blasting, but just 3 you do it the less efficient way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you have 3 mobs on you, LB all three and you don't need to spread w/Inferno. If there are 1-2 more than the 3 you tagged, go for an Inferno.That's the way I play it (until someone shows me the error of my ways!).

Also keep in mind that 10, yards is a lot smaller than what most "see" in-game.

It is much better to simply living bomb 1 target and Inferno Blast with Glyph of Fire Blast if the targets are close together (10 yards). The only reason to separately cast Living Bombs would be if you had 2-3 targets further than 10 yards apart.

Also note that Living bomb is capped at 3 targets total, no matter how you apply it (separate casts or with Glyph of Fire Blast).

Damien keeps the mage rotations very up to date and I would highly recommend reviewing them if you have questions.

http://icy-veins.com...downs-abilities

Edited by Vladamyr

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have recently changed from LB to NT (as a Fire mage) and im not looking back - i have noticed a considerable difference in my dps. and especially my aoe dps (still absolutely no way I could keep up with a monk - but its 'better'). Highly recommend.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have recently changed from LB to NT (as a Fire mage) and im not looking back - i have noticed a considerable difference in my dps. and especially my aoe dps (still absolutely no way I could keep up with a monk - but its 'better'). Highly recommend.

I mean to try tonight a proper test but I have found frost bomb to be the best so far. I'm going to run some dummy tests and I'll edit this to see what I find.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Similar Content

    • By hjp
      Who are we?
      Volatile are a group of mostly ex-mythic raiders, looking to get back into mythic raiding. We cleared through Nighthold heroic a number of months ago and need some more people in order to jump into mythic. Besides raiding our friendly bunch of members enjoy running mythic+ on daily basis, helping out with world quests among other things. Our discord is usually filled with members for daily banter and weekly fun. If you enjoy all that, you most certainly will enjoy your stay in Volatile.
      Who are we looking for?
      We're primarily looking for ranged DPS to fill out the roster. At this time we are full on tanks and healers.
      Tanks - Closed
      Healers - Closed
      Ranged DPS - MM Hunter, Warlock and Shadow Priest but all classes will be considered
      Melee DPS - Closed
      Overall we're looking for people with a good knowledge of their class/spec who know how to improve their gameplay. Being fairly thick skinned and being able to accept constructive criticism, as well as the occasional jab from some of our more 'outspoken' members, is a big plus too.
      When do we raid?
      We raid two times a week as standard, we often have an additional raid day if necessary. See raid times below. 
      Thursday: 8pm - 11pm (Server time)
      Monday: 8pm - 11pm (Server time)
      Tuesday: 8pm - 11pm (Additional day)
      Application process:
      We believe the best way to get to know if someone is right for the guild is just to have a chat, rather than go through a long application process. So we'll have a chat, look at logs and possibly run some M+ to get to know each other. If you're interested in joining our mythic raid team, contact any of the following:
      Contact us:
      GM: 
      Xadel#2609, Xadel (ingame)
      Council: 
      Òops#2597, Drainphase (ingame)
      Passive#2900, Malenky (ingame)
      Ohajay#2606, Draconem (ingame)
      Hjp#21650, Phynn (ingame)
    • By molodirazz
      All applications will be reviewed and considered however if you are playing a class/spec combination we need then your chances of joining will be higher.
      A little bit of info about us:
      We are a group of friends and serious raiders on EU Twisting Nether looking to recruit skilled like-minded players into our roster for Mythic Legion raids and onwards. We will offer a sociable and fun raiding environment while maintaining a strong desire for progression. Our Discord is very active and we encourage all members to chat and play together not only for raids. The guild formed late March 2016 and fully cleared 13/13 Mythic Hellfire Citadel pre nerf shortly after. We've since been improving our world ranking every tier.
      We currently raid 3 days per week on Mythic: Wednesday, Sunday and Tuesday 19:15-22:15 server time. While it is not a lot we try to make the most out of our time. We run optional heroic/normal/alt/previous tier raids during off days in which raiders are welcome to come to. Our members also play other games outside raid times together where anyone is welcome to join(LoL, Dota, HotS, Overwatch etc.).
      Our loot system for Mythic is RC Loot Council.
      What we expect from you:
      - We are a raiding guild with only a 9 hour per week schedule so you are expected to attend and be ON TIME! However we understand things can come up sometimes but please let us know.
      - Be able to speak and understand the English language and not be afraid to communicate with other members during raids.
      - Actively doing dungeons/world quests to improve your gear and artifact weapon.
      - Have a strong understanding of the current raid tier and be able to play your class to it's potential.
      - Always come to raids prepared(i.e. bringing food and potions, etc).
      - Come fully gemmed and enchanted with the correct stats for your class and spec.
      - Access to Discord and a working microphone.
      - Have a computer that can handle 20 man raiding and a good, stable internet connection.
      - Exorsus Raid Tools, Weakauras2 and RC Loot Council addons installed. We may ask you to install others.

      If you have any further questions please contact us at battletags: Vims#21684 Azkey#21565
      To apply please visit our guild website: http://asylum-tn.enjin.com/recruitment
      __________________________________________________________________________
      Requirements to be considered into current main raids:
      - 905~ ilvl
      - 50+ traits.
      - 8 or more mythic kills in NH.
      - Exceptions to the requirements may be made.
      _____________________________________________________________________________
      We're currently looking for the classes below but may consider other classes as well.
      Druid: Balance.
      Hunter: BM.
      Mage: Frost.
      Warlock: Affliction.
      Any and all applications will be considered.
    • By Vlad
      This thread is for comments about our Secret Mage Standard Un'Goro Deck.
    • By Vlad
      This thread is for comments about our Freeze Mage Standard Un'Goro Deck.
    • By Underclocked
      Okay, so i got a 3rd legendary for my frost mage, Sephuz's Secret, the issue is that I have the crafted legendary shoulders and Lady Vashj's gloves equipped. My stats: Crit 33%, Haste 23%, Mastery 32%, and Vers 4%. When I equip the ring, my crit and haste bump quite a bit up, and i lose a bit of mastery (because the gloves i use as a replacement have crit and haste too). Should I keep gloves on for their equip bonus, or should i replace them with Sephuz's for the stats and ilvl increase? I know my crit will be above the soft cap with ring, but i can swap gems and enchants for haste ones as noted on the guide.
      ~Thanks, Underclocked