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LobbyBoy

Ret Raid CD in WoD

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Well I replied to it, wordily, acknowledging the topic along with pointing out some more flaws.

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I don't get why all that utility isn't enough. You bring about as much as a warlock, which is only really a cost saver, and a newly limited portal.

If you got anything new, they'd have to take away something else.

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yes but at least a warlock brings insane dps as compared to a ret's mediocre (unless you were born of a god)

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@Hybrys

Melee dps isn't very popular in SoO raids (and this won't change in WoD imo).

My guild is raiding 10 man and for most boss fights only one melee is designated.

 

So which to choose?:

  • Rogue: High dps / Smoke bomb
  • Shami: Med dps / Blood lust ...
  • Warri: High dps / Rallying Cry
  • Retri: Med dps 

Most dps classes have some raid cds so why shouldn't Ret keep theirs?

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While Ret won't have a raid CD (Devo), their Hand of Sacrifice comes in handy a lot in a 10m environment. I've also seen our Ret paladin use Selfless Healer and have an instance Flash of Light save some raiders life in the past.

 

But I do agree that it would be nice to have every class be equiped with an overall Raid offensive or defensive CD.

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But here comes into effect what Dakshisb tried to explain:

Why keep struggling with ret when you can have HoS and others from Prot or Holy?

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yes but at least a warlock brings insane dps as compared to a ret's mediocre (unless you were born of a god)

Right, but we don't yet know what a warlock or a ret pally brings to the DPS table.  Saying that you don't bring enough DPS to warrant not having more powerful CDs isn't valid, especially before Beta Tuning.

 

@Hybrys

Melee dps isn't very popular in SoO raids (and this won't change in WoD imo).

My guild is raiding 10 man and for most boss fights only one melee is designated.

 

So which to choose?:

  • Rogue: High dps / Smoke bomb
  • Shami: Med dps / Blood lust ...
  • Warri: High dps / Rallying Cry
  • Retri: Med dps 

Most dps classes have some raid cds so why shouldn't Ret keep theirs?

Why do you so easily dismiss multiple melee AND the value of the Ret cooldowns as they are?

 

On Thok, we use a Ret and Warrior, and the Ret tosses out three-four BoPs and three-four Sacs.  The Warrior does 2 Rallys and 1-2 Demo banners.  This is BEFORE their extremely valuable usage on Siege/Paragons/Garrosh as Sac/BoP machines.  And we also run a Prot/Holy pally.  So we have the three of them, coordinating for all that Hand-y goodness.

 

BoP is ridiculously OP.  Sac is crazy good, especially when we're going back to a day and age of tank damage mattering. Freedom even has it's moments.

 

If I was a raid leader, I'd take a Pally that knows their spells at a 10% DPS loss any day of the week.

 

 

Using your same logic, what does a Boomkin bring to the table in WoD?  They lost Tranq.

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I totally agree: BoP and Sac are really powerful. Thankfully Prot and Heal can use it too.

But why should Ret not be allowed to use DA any more?

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I totally agree: BoP and Sac are really powerful. Thankfully Prot and Heal can use it too.

But why should Ret not be allowed to use DA any more?

Because you already have extremely powerful cooldowns.  You're not going to stack Prot and Holy pallies because of their CDs, you're going to have them based on their strengths (Prot being CD-stacking machines, Holy being fast and hard tank healing.)

 

Ret will maintain it's niche (Burst + mid-AoE), as well as it's CDs (BoP/Sac/Freedom), and still fit in well within a raid.

 

Why do you require more?

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If a group of people are picking a raid team composition, they won't purposely pick prot paladins over any other tank because of HoP and HoS. Prot would have to be the better tanking class for survivability for that, since that's pretty much what matters most. Healing I'd say holy's would be sought out for those ablities in a 25 man, but in a 10man you'd only get one.

 

I don't think the argument should be ret vs going holy/prot, but ret vs boomkin/shadowpriest/ele shaman. (AKA hybrids)

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while BoP and sac are very powerful the problem is they are exactly what devo isn't, a single target cd. Devo is a raid-wide damage reduction cd ALONG with anti-interrupt, which will also go into the fact that ret is an incredibly weak class in pvp (not as represented as many other classes) and while yes this has mainly stayed on a pve track, I think we should look at exactly what ret loses and where.

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while BoP and sac are very powerful the problem is they are exactly what devo isn't, a single target cd. Devo is a raid-wide damage reduction cd ALONG with anti-interrupt, which will also go into the fact that ret is an incredibly weak class in pvp (not as represented as many other classes) and while yes this has mainly stayed on a pve track, I think we should look at exactly what ret loses and where.

The only reason Ret isn't in PvP more often is because of their cooldown stacking balance (Amazingly powerful for 20 seconds, then limp) and the relative power of Warriors (which WoD should be fixing.)

 

The overall changes and reduction in CC should make Ret even more viable, as they're keeping their stun and it'll be one of the longest in the game.

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