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[Feral] Paloro's How to Guide

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I have to admit i'm quite confused by that spreadsheet. 

Gear 1 total (158) was obtained from 64+94 and Gear 2 total (167) was obtained from 85 + 82, right? It won (but with inferior stats) despite the socket that would give +50.

But if you did:

Gear 1 - (64x4,08) + (94x3,36) = 579,96

Gear 2 - (85x3,64) + (82x1,82) = 458,64

Then gear 2 would lose but since it has socket it would be 458,64 + 204 = 662,64. Gear 2 would end up being the better choice.

 

I must be looking at the spreadsheet the wrong way.

Edited by Kiryela

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Your math is correct.  I don't have that particular spreadsheet in front of me, but it seems that the cross multiplication of the secondary value didn't happen in the "hidden" cells that I set up.

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I've been using Claws of Shirvallah/Incarnation for dungeons. I like being able to dispel enrages, poisons, curses and CC adds without shifting, and it simplifies the rotation a lot (with these lower gear levels, getting a BT-charged Rip is a small miracle). Incarnation is the real difference-maker anyway. So if I was to stick with CoS for raiding, what would the stat priority be?

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I've been using Claws of Shirvallah/Incarnation for dungeons. I like being able to dispel enrages, poisons, curses and CC adds without shifting, and it simplifies the rotation a lot (with these lower gear levels, getting a BT-charged Rip is a small miracle). Incarnation is the real difference-maker anyway. So if I was to stick with CoS for raiding, what would the stat priority be?

 

Single Target:

Crit>Multi=Vers=Mastery>Haste

 

Multiple Target:

Mastery>Crit=Multi>Vers>Haste

 

 

None of the talents really change up the stat priorities.  Because boss fights are very very rarely true "patchwerk" style, I aim to gear as:

Crit>Mastery>Multi=Vers>Haste

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I've mained druid since MoP and played balance til 6.0, levelled to 100 and felt like I had a good feeling for things, but I'm still unsure on a few things.

 

During incarnation, Rake's initial damage is higher than shred and should be used instead of shred til incarnation is down, yeah? How would BT be used optimally then? Outside incarnation I try to use it on either rip/rake or rake/rip, but during incarnation I guess it's just gonna be 'wasted' on a rake after the FB/Rip?

 

The other question is regarding the opener; Prowl into rake, incarnation  + berserk, rake til 5 cp -- Then what? I'm kinda assuming FB since rip would be a waste, since it'll only be up for maybe 3 seconds before it's refreshed with a bloodtalons?

 

Sometimes my rotation works wonders and other times I end up with 2 seconds left on predatory swiftness, 20 energy spare and 4 combo points. Is it 'normal' to miss bloodtalons due to energy starvation or am I completely messing up? I assume the (2) set energy regen is gonna help out with this issue but I've got terrible performance anxiety despite being at least close to 20k dps as of now.

 

On a slightly less important note, has any math been done on bloodtalon usage? Two empowered rakes worth more than one empowered thrash on x targets and a  single rake etc. I think my biggest problem coming into feral from balance is how much each spell weighs, though I guess that's somewhat simple to figure out, but it'd probably help a bit in your guide.

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During Incarnation, if you have enough mastery that your Rake is out-damaging Shred, then yes that would be the correct thing to do.  I find that very difficult though, especially with the itlvl that can currently be obtained.  Also, you should remember that your first Inc will be when the boss is >80%hp and you get the +50% crit to Shred.  So, just use Shred ;)

 

At current gear levels, Rip and FB are close (with Rip just a little ahead), but as we get more mastery the gap will widen.  Only refresh Rip if you are in BitW and it will have a higher damage percentage.

 

Missing Bloodtalons?  If you only have 2 seconds on PS, why aren't you using HT?  The 2 stacks last you 30 seconds, so you will have plenty of time for your energy to regen.

 

That's a good question for Thrash...I'll have to look into it later because I have personally just been using them on Rakes (different targets).  *My guess would be that it would have to be 7+ targets for it to be a benefit though given how hard Rake hits.

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@paloro

 

I could use a lot of help on my feral. I get the ideal rotation and I mostly get how to execute it but I seem to fail. At 630 im told i should be pulling 20k and I barely reach 15k. This is by using lunar inspiration. When I try to use blood talons I drop to almost 12. Using TF and BT my rake will do like 7k and my rip is doing 3 for  a total of ten. Using lunar inspiration rake does 4.5k rip does 3.8 and lunar does like 2.8k, So I end up doing like 11-12k in dots vs 10k which adds up as fight goes on.

 

I know with omen of clarity you can wait until you have 4 combo points to cast ht to proc bt but I never seem to have enough energy. After I use my finisher, im at 0 energy and can't build up the 4 combo points fast enough and i miss my omen proc. Are you supposed to pool full energy before casting a finisher? Even then fb will drain my extra energy anyways. I see other feral druids using bt and doing great dps but i seem to fall behind :(

 

Please advise

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It seems you have a bit of a misunderstanding of the BT rotation.  

 

When we say to cast HT, we don't mean to hard cast (shifting forms and waiting the 2 seconds for the cast to go off).  It is meant to use the Predatory Swiftness (PS) proc you gain from casting a finisher which grants an instant cast HT.  PS lasts 8 sec (I think, don't have the info handy), so you will indeed want to pool some energy before using a finisher.

 

FB costs 25 energy and can take an additional 25 (total of 50 energy for max damage).  If you pool to say, 95, you would be left with 45 energy after using FB.

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It seems you have a bit of a misunderstanding of the BT rotation.  

 

When we say to cast HT, we don't mean to hard cast (shifting forms and waiting the 2 seconds for the cast to go off).  It is meant to use the Predatory Swiftness (PS) proc you gain from casting a finisher which grants an instant cast HT.  PS lasts 8 sec (I think, don't have the info handy), so you will indeed want to pool some energy before using a finisher.

 

FB costs 25 energy and can take an additional 25 (total of 50 energy for max damage).  If you pool to say, 95, you would be left with 45 energy after using FB.

 

I'll play some more today. I guess my issue is I am used to dps that burns resources as quickly as possible. Even worse is lately on my rogue im running combat which is smash sinister strike as fast as your hands can carry you biggrin.png i stared at the log from uhhh noxxics simulations and it says like 45% of my time should actually be waiting for things, but I get antsy >_< 

 

Also out of curiosity paloro, what is the talent setup you yourself use? 

Edited by demonardvark

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I use Incarnation and Bloodtalons almost exclusively.

 

Council style fights I will be switching to LI though.

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During Incarnation, if you have enough mastery that your Rake is out-damaging Shred, then yes that would be the correct thing to do.  I find that very difficult though, especially with the itlvl that can currently be obtained.  Also, you should remember that your first Inc will be when the boss is >80%hp and you get the +50% crit to Shred.  So, just use Shred wink.png

 

Did they bake that 80% HP thing into shred? I thought you always had that double crit chance while in Inc.

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They were supposed to.  I suppose since Ravage had been removed and with Incarnation....they just made it from prowl/stealth. 

 

Makes it even more of an obvious choice to use.

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During Incarnation, if you have enough mastery that your Rake is out-damaging Shred, then yes that would be the correct thing to do.  I find that very difficult though, especially with the itlvl that can currently be obtained.  Also, you should remember that your first Inc will be when the boss is >80%hp and you get the +50% crit to Shred.  So, just use Shred wink.png

 

That's a good question for Thrash...I'll have to look into it later because I have personally just been using them on Rakes (different targets).  *My guess would be that it would have to be 7+ targets for it to be a benefit though given how hard Rake hits.

 

 

 

Wanted to ask you about these two statements as they have come in conflict with my research and understanding.

 

Where do we get crit bonus to shred above 80%? I know that was part of ravage, but that is not part of current shred tooltip or any ability in the book I can see. Can you please refer me to the source of that.

 

Also, from my math, in 3+ targets you would always want to use a BT empowerement on a thrash over the rakes, and at 2 targets it's virtually equal (This is all on the assumption that you are not in incarnation at the time). I can post the math if you like, it's done based on my stats but since they both scale off of mastery it should be correct regardless of what your gear is like.

 

Edit: just saw above your convo with krazy about the shred. My bad, should have noticed that. It doesn't appear that they migrated that over, instead giving us the general buff to shred whilst stealthed.

Edited by Bradykin

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Bradykin, if you don't mind, please post those numbers.  I'd like to take a look at them to verify + add priority lists for multi-target in the guide.

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Bradykin, if you don't mind, please post those numbers.  I'd like to take a look at them to verify + add priority lists for multi-target in the guide.

 

 

Ok, well this is going off of my personal stats:

 

Rake for me does 2264 initial damage and 11320 damage over its duration, for a total of 13584 damage for one cast. 

Thrash does 1783 initial damage and 6370 damage over its duration, for a total of 8153 damage to each target for one cast.

 

Obviously, that would be modified by buffs, mastery, and so on (I took this measure completely unbuffed) but they should scale up the same way with both stats: they are both bleeds and scale from attack power. So to the best of my knowledge, this should remain consistent for everybody.

 

Now, the question was how to spend your two bloodtalons stacks in this 2 target scenario. Well, I think everyone agrees that you are casting all three of these spells, so we can ignore entirely that thrash costs more, it is not relevant for this scenario. So we have three different damage sources:

 

Rake 1 will do 13584 damage unbuffed

Rake 2 will do 13584 damage unbuffed

Thrash will do 8153 * 2 = 16306 damage unbuffed

 

Thrash is the highest damage dealer of the group. Therefore you would want to use bloodtalons on it and one of the rakes, to receive the optimal damage

 

It is worth noting: If the scenario deems it viable, Rip hit's harder then rake, and benefits more from bloodtalons. But it will be a weird moment when you try to buff thrash and rip with the bloodtalons, sometimes will work, sometimes won't be feasible.

 

I don't see any error with the math here to my knowledge, but if I am missing something obvious, I would love to know.

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The one thing you are forgetting about is the cost associated with each ability.  The DPE in your scenario would be

 

Rake:

13584 (damage) / 35 (energy) = 388

 

Thrash (2 targets):

16306 (damage) / 50 (energy) = 326

 

Also, remember that this is assuming that both dots will completely expire.  I'll try to set-up a datasheet soon to map all this out.  Just really busy right now :(

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The one thing you are forgetting about is the cost associated with each ability.  The DPE in your scenario would be

 

Rake:

13584 (damage) / 35 (energy) = 388

 

Thrash (2 targets):

16306 (damage) / 50 (energy) = 326

 

Also, remember that this is assuming that both dots will completely expire.  I'll try to set-up a datasheet soon to map all this out.  Just really busy right now sad.png

 

Here's the thing though: In this scenario where you are cleaving both targets, you will want to cast all of these spells, regardless of bloodtalons. So therefore, where you send the bloodtalons has nothing to do with the dps.

 

In 2 person cleave fights, rake is more energy efficient then thrash, I agree. But the thrash is good enough to use, and hits harder, and therefore should get the bloodtalons buff.

As for the dots fully running out, as thrash has a shorter duration, that would mean that in a shorter fight it is more likely to get it's full use then rake it, meaning that would have no effect on the directing of bloodtalons.

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Here's the thing though: In this scenario where you are cleaving both targets, you will want to cast all of these spells, regardless of bloodtalons. So therefore, where you send the bloodtalons has nothing to do with the dps.

 

The bolded section is where I'm getting confused.  Yes, you will want to have all your bleeds up....but why wouldn't you want to maximize the efficiency of your resource?

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The bolded section is where I'm getting confused.  Yes, you will want to have all your bleeds up....but why wouldn't you want to maximize the efficiency of your resource?

Forgive me, that was a horribly worded sentence that flat out had a typo. Let me try again:

 

Let's pretend bloodtalons is not up, and you are going to cleave stuff. Thrashing two targets, then raking both targets, are all energy-efficient options compared to our other choices. You would then begin a single target rotation and try to multidot, etc.

 

So regardless of bloodtalons, you are going to cast thrash, and you are going to cast 2 rakes. Now lets add bloodtalons into the equation. All of those bleeds are still worth using, and since you are using them, you would want to buff whichever ones hit hardest. Thrash is the mathematically hardest hitting of those three abilities, followed obviously by a tie between the rakes. Since the thrash is the harder hitting ability, you would want to give it the 30% buff from bloodtalons, since it is multiplying a larger number.

 

As you said, you want to have all your bleeds up, and want to make the most of your resources. You are considering two resources here: energy, and bloodtalons stacks. You are spending the 120 energy to use your dots, and want to combine that most effectively with your two bloodtalons stacks to get the most damage.

Edited by Bradykin

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As you said, you want to have all your bleeds up, and want to make the most of your resources. You are considering two resources here: energy, and bloodtalons stacks. You are spending the 120 energy to use your dots, and want to combine that most effectively with your two bloodtalons stacks to get the most damage.

 

This makes a lot of sense.  Perhaps we are in a KISS (keep it simple, stupid) situation here.  Theoretically, I can't dispute that Thrash will have more damage on 2 targets then 1 Rake.

 

There is something that keeps me from doing this in a raid however (especially in this low of gear levels).  That something is combo points.  Not generating another one of your vital resources (from Thrash) puts a huge strain on the rest of your rotation.  Am I trying to complicate it too much?

 

*Edit: Not sure how much this matters to you, but SimCraft's action lists show to only use Thrash on OoC procs or if Thrash is in Pandemic.

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This makes a lot of sense.  Perhaps we are in a KISS (keep it simple, stupid) situation here.  Theoretically, I can't dispute that Thrash will have more damage on 2 targets then 1 Rake.

 

There is something that keeps me from doing this in a raid however (especially in this low of gear levels).  That something is combo points.  Not generating another one of your vital resources (from Thrash) puts a huge strain on the rest of your rotation.  Am I trying to complicate it too much?

 

*Edit: Not sure how much this matters to you, but SimCraft's action lists show to only use Thrash on OoC procs or if Thrash is in Pandemic.

 

This is a fairly KISS situation, I agree. I'm going to be running a lot of feral math and stuff over this weekend, after talking to Stenhaldi and getting some pointers. If you like, I would be happy to share my work with you once I am....well, certain i'm not being a blabbering moron.

 

And in terms of the thrash straining combo points, it 100% does. That is something that ferals need to learn when they CAN use it without damaging their rotation, and when it is too much of a risk.

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Helooooo, I have a question!

Ok, so, we're about to start the boss fight, i've prepotted and popped my incarnation, I'm at 5cp with a lengthy duration on my berserk? Should I use Tiger's fury and Rip here? Wouldn't it be more beneficial to just use bite, quickly get to 5cp again and us tiger's fury AND bloodtalons to buff my rip, this would also mean that I'm using tiger's fury with 7/8s left on berserk, this is more optimal no? 

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