Damien

Restoration Shaman 6.2

33 posts in this topic

This thread is for comments about our Restoration Shaman guide.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey Vix,

 

Question for you re: Resto Shaman stat priority.  I agree with you that Mastery is the best secondary stat, but how did you come up with Multistrike being number two?  As far as I can tell, Multistrike is similar to Crit in that it grants extra throughput, but lacks the benefits of granting mana gains from Resurgence.

 

At level 100, 110 crit = 1% crit rating and 66 multistrike = 1% multistrike rating. Multistrike is cheaper, but also less effective since a critical heal doubles the value of the heal (heal size x 2.0), and a multistrike heal only multiplies it by 1.3, or 1.6 if you want to take into account that there are two chances to proc a multistrike.

 

For example, lets just say you have a 10K heal. If a crit procs, that heal = 10k x 2 = 20k. If both multistrikes proc, then you get 10K + 3K + 3K = 16k total.

 

What does this mean? The crit heal gave 10K extra throughput, and the multistrike heal gave 6K extra throughput. 6/10 = 0.6, and lo and behold, 66/110 (the stat values needed to obtain 1% multistrike and crit) also = 0.6. In terms of raw stat values, this means that crit and multistrike are completey equal in terms of throughput gained per point. However, crit has the added benefit of granting mana regen from resurgence, and multistrike does not.

 

In my book, stat priority is: Mastery > Crit > Multistrike > Haste.

 

Am I completely missing something about multistrike?

 

Thanks!

 

Amika <Might> Zul'jin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Excellent question!

 

I don't disagree with your approach--in terms of an isolated investment, the gain per point would be equal. So, even basic intuition would suggest that with Multistrike providing no benefit to regen, Crit would be better because it increases Resurgence procs by some amount greater than zero.

 

But, there are a couple issues that arise with this line of thinking. First, it assumes sufficient time in which to cast the additional heal. It's a fair presumption, one that I don't think this is going to be an issue in Mythic raiding, but I bring it up because time is an inherent part of evaluating stat weights (and can significantly impact rotational stat evaluations). But, again, in an isolated environment, the worst case the two stats are equal; the best case is that Crit moves ahead.

 

The second, and the larger issue, is what happens when you start looking at Crit and Multistrike in a dependant environment. (This is similar to the interrelationship of Crit and Mastery that I went to such lengths to analyze back in Cataclysm). While you can invest all your stats in Crit and have zero Multistrike, the inverse isn't true; all players have base crit. So, all multistrikes have potential to crit, even if it is at the base value of 5%. Thus, the calculation of your average heal would have the following components:  Total Heal = Base Heal + Critical Heal + (Multistrike1 + Multistrike1 Crit) + (Multistrike2 + Multistrike2 Crit). This is a careful departure from the situation where you look at each investment in isolation. When I ran the calcs this way, Multistrike did pull ahead of Crit in terms of average throughput. Hamlet's HealerCalcs actually corroborates on the raw throughput--hooray!

 

Lastly, it's worth remembering that Resurgence gains are comparatively minor in Warlords. Whereas in Mists, CH crits returned a whopping 22% of the base cost of the spell, in WoD you're only going to see a 5% return on critical strike. (Healing Wave returns 40% of base; Healing Surge returns 12%). So, when you're looking at a "raid healing rotation" which is dominated by CH, your sustainability isn't going to be significantly impacted by Resurgence. The counter to this is, of course, that Crit will overly benefit your "conservative single target rotation", and allow you to essentially tread water while waiting for the next period of burst. 

 

TL;DNR: at the end of it all, the answer both Stoove and I were left with was: it's very, VERY close. Which is an incredibly heartening idea given that WoD is a world without reforging, because it means that you shouldn't be overly concerned if you have the option of upgrading a Crit piece with a Multistrike piece or vice versa. 

 

Stoove actually put together a great post on this topic recently as well: http://stoove.wordpress.com/2014/11/03/statlords-of-shamanor/. It's worth a read and explains, in good detail, how the current stat recommendations were derived.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One thing I'd like to add is that the theorycraft community doesn't entirely seem to agree yet on the issued of Crit and Multistrike. Vixsin noted that Hamlet's Healercalcs spreadsheet agrees with both her and my own analysis, but Hamlet and Dayani have both said (on their podcast) that Multi and Crit are "mathematically the same", which is contrary to Vixsin's reasoning and my own published calculations.

 

So, although the matter is under discussion right now, that has actually caused us to inspect our stat recommendations much more carefully than we otherwise would have.

 

Haste is still an open topic as well. In terms of pure throughput it's quite superior to either Crit or Multi (and inferior to Mastery), but there are considerations to be made for mana spending which so far hasn't been accounted for in published work. This is because such a problem is "quite nontrivial", as scientists like to say, which means that you are unlikely ever to find a properly satisfying Ultimate Answer.

 

Ultimately, the stat priority we have recommended (and will revise in the approach to WoD) is extremely carefully considered in the full knowledge of these problems and will shift as and when the theorycraft changes direction.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not to mention the value of getting that casted heal out "quicker" regardless of throughput, more of a pvp thing but still as (almost impossible to measure) value in pve

 

For crit and mutistrike (ignoring mana regen) its safe to say because they are close and scale off each other the "right" answer will be to ballance them to some degree

 

That all said because mastery is no 1, Gems and enchants will probably go there, and we will probably prefer warforged, and gemmed and maybe even gear with terrciary stats before we need to even worry about choosing between crit and mastery

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, the power of math! Thank you very much Vixsin and Stoove for your responses. I also really enjoyed reading your "Statlords of Shamanor" writeup Stoove, although now my head hurts just a bit smile.png The time you have both taken to math these things out is greatly appreciated.

 

As a "touchyfeelycrafter", after taking all this into consideration, I like the idea of Mastery > Multistrike = Crit > Haste for the first tier of WoD. Personally, I'm placing Haste low on the priority list simply because of the inevitable HPM concerns for the first tier, when we all feel a little mana starved.  Haste is lovely if your mana regen can support it, but in a mana-conservative environment I think I'll lean towards the free throughput of the other secondary stats.

 

Finally, it certainly is reassuring to believe that no matter what combination of secondary stats get thrown our way, we'll be able to make good use of them.

 

Thank you once again for taking the time to respond!

 

Amika <Might> Zul'jin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Responding to discussions like this is absolutely a pleasure, and thanks for your compliments!

 

I know that a lot of people who have tested raiding more rigorously than I have on the Beta are saying that Haste will be too low on their personal rating just for the mana concerns. I'm not sure whether I'm being optimistic here - perhaps I anticipate changing my rotation much more than those who playtested might already have.

 

Also, stay tuned for more maths which will try to take account of some of the mana issues we've discussed. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the guide says wow_icon_spell_shaman_elementaloath.jpgAncestral Swiftness gives you an emergency heal if you combine it with wow_icon_spell_nature_healingwavelesser.Healing Wave. I would think it better to use wow_icon_spell_nature_healingway.jpgHealing Surge as it has more base healing power, and its free of mana cost.

 

also you can make wow_icon_ability_shaman_condensationtoteCloudburst Totem expire when you want it, if you don't have some other important totem up at the time with wow_icon_spell_shaman_totemrecall.jpgTotemic Recall. maybe you can add this as somebody might find it usefull to know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Question: 

 

I haven't had a single Echo of Elements procc when using healing spells. Is it possible that the Skill only proccs of Damage-Skills?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I haven't had a single Echo of Elements procc when using healing spells. Is it possible that the Skill only proccs of Damage-Skills?

 

EotE procs from healing spells just as much as it procs from damage. The only caveat is that you must be in combat to proc EotE, which is obviously not a problem with damage spells. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For me, Mr Robot is recommending Mark of Bleeding Hollow over Mark of Shadowmoon.  Have there been any changes, or is Mr Robot simply weighing stats differently?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For me, Mr Robot is recommending Mark of Bleeding Hollow over Mark of Shadowmoon.  Have there been any changes, or is Mr Robot simply weighing stats differently?

 

Depends on how desparate for mana you are, and I don't have a feel for that in raids yet. AMR would be correct for throughput, but sub-optimal if you need the mana to sustain healing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The talents are outdated. Elemental Blast is a really good choice now, with 1000 spirit from 250 and 500 in a random stat. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd like to ask about the new set pieces coming with BFR.

 

They have quite a high amount of multistrike mixed in them. Is there going to be a probable change in stat priority once the set bonuses come into effect? It seems like Blizzard is trying to push multistrike onto everything Shaman related.

 

To this moment I was able to run on 0 MS and 0 Vers, this will not be the case with the new gear.

 

Will the gear optimization just get harder? Or will we probably adapt to different stats?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The talents are outdated. Elemental Blast is a really good choice now, with 1000 spirit from 250 and 500 in a random stat.

 

I updated the values, which I had forgotten to update when WoD was released.

 

I'd like to ask about the new set pieces coming with BFR.

 

They have quite a high amount of multistrike mixed in them. Is there going to be a probable change in stat priority once the set bonuses come into effect? It seems like Blizzard is trying to push multistrike onto everything Shaman related.

 

To this moment I was able to run on 0 MS and 0 Vers, this will not be the case with the new gear.

 

Will the gear optimization just get harder? Or will we probably adapt to different stats?

I'll let Stoove reply to that smile.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmm. I can't really decide between Cloudburst Totem and High Tides. I have read several guides about that and I am still using Cloudburst Totem. Before we get our tier 17 set 4 bonus (then High Tides is the choice), it is a difficult to decide..

 

Currently I am not using much Chain Heal so I think Cloudburst is better choice, but I am not sure..

 

This guide's default choice is Cloudburst so I guess I will keep it for now..

 

Has there been any changes past month? I see this guide has not been updated for a while.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd like to ask about the new set pieces coming with BFR.

 

They have quite a high amount of multistrike mixed in them. Is there going to be a probable change in stat priority once the set bonuses come into effect? It seems like Blizzard is trying to push multistrike onto everything Shaman related.

 

To this moment I was able to run on 0 MS and 0 Vers, this will not be the case with the new gear.

 

Will the gear optimization just get harder? Or will we probably adapt to different stats?

 

Here's my understanding of the BRF Tier gear: the additional casts of Chain Heal will not proc Multistrikes. So that would imply that Multistrike won't become overpowered due simply to the 2pc set bonus.

 

The second part of this is about set itemization; I don't think that Multistrike will get any *better* without a significant change implemented to our mechanics, which I think is unlikely. Mastery and Haste will still be our best throughput stats, but we might be forced into having a wider spread of stats (i.e. more Multistrike and Crit). I don't really see us changing our playstyle much in the face of different itemization, except for being slightly happier to heal people on high hp.

 

Hmm. I can't really decide between Cloudburst Totem and High Tides. I have read several guides about that and I am still using Cloudburst Totem. Before we get our tier 17 set 4 bonus (then High Tides is the choice), it is a difficult to decide..

 

Currently I am not using much Chain Heal so I think Cloudburst is better choice, but I am not sure..

 

This guide's default choice is Cloudburst so I guess I will keep it for now..

 

Has there been any changes past month? I see this guide has not been updated for a while.

 

Set bonuses aside, CBT and HT are roughly on par - I find it better to spec CBT by default and switch into HT for those fights where I can find a really good use for it. CBT is really such an efficient talent that I'd advise learning to use that over HT. Note also that you have to do quite a lot of Chain Heals in one fight for HT's throughput to start to outstrip CBT's - a number which I just can't afford at the moment.

 

The guide does not currently need to be updated as far as I know. Very little has changed since it was last updated.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Question about T6 talents.

 

Your guide says to take primal elementalist unless you have mana problems. However, while you give a good description of Unleashed Fury, you don't say why to either never take it, or when it would be more useful than Primal Elementalist or Elemental Blast.

 

Why should I never take Unleashed Fury?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think so Unleashed Fury would be better on any situation except when you need to do Chain Heal a lot (assuming you are also using High Tides) or big heal on someone with low hp. Primal Elementalist gives you a passive 10% healing done when you pop em out and Elemental Blast Spirit for mana regen.

 

What I think so far is the Imperator fight on heroic/mythic where Unleashed Fury along with Chain Heal/High Tides could be useful.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can you please update this guide? it still references siege of orgrimmar and from looking at the top resto shamans and how they heal, seems to be outdated

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The guide could use some serious updating, most of the justification for talents comes from SoO fights and at this point it's suggesting talents that most of the top tier resto shamans are disagreeing with. I'd say default Astral Shift, Windwalk Totem, Call of the Elements, Ancestral Swiftness, Rushing Streams (Conductivity for a handful of minimal movement fights), Elemental Blast, High Tide.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Question about T6 talents.

 

Your guide says to take primal elementalist unless you have mana problems. However, while you give a good description of Unleashed Fury, you don't say why to either never take it, or when it would be more useful than Primal Elementalist or Elemental Blast.

 

Why should I never take Unleashed Fury?

 

It seems like this part wasn't update recently.

The most 'to-go' talent in tier 6 now is Elemental Blast due to spirit and secondaries buffs that it provides. 

You definitely can play with Unleashed Fury when taking CBT in tier 7. Crits from HS empowered with UF+UL charge the totem very nice. It is valuable for empowering HW too.

Maybe things will change with getting more tier bonuses and higher ilvl deeper in expansion, but PE is definitely not the best choice for now. It was back in MoP, but now you can hardly find resto shaman who prefer it over EB or UF.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Similar Content

    • By Damien
      This thread is for comments about our Vyr Archon Wizard Build Guide.
    • By Damien
      This thread is for comments about our Zunimassa Gargantuan Witch Doctor build guide.
    • By Damien
      This thread is for comments about our Natalya/Marauder Sentry Demon Hunter build guide.
    • By Damien
      This thread is for comments about our Marauder Cluster Arrow Demon Hunter Build Guide.
    • By Stan

      Summary of the latest Q/A with Game Director Ion Hazzikostas about Patch 7.3.5 and beyond.
      Watch Now
      No questions about WoW Classic will be answered in this Q/A. In BfA, the Azerite system adds depth and customization that was used for Tier sets. For Battle for Azeroth, a lot of art variety will be added to the armor. There will be 1 appearance per armor type though, but more variety across zones. For transmog collectors it means more customization. There will be unique trinkets from raids. Azerite armor from raids will provide properties that can be found only in raids. Assembling people and maintaining schedule needs to feel worthwhile and properly rewarding. Patch 7.3.5 TL;DR: We'll see zone scaling, Legion epilogue quest content, Ulduar Timewalking and a preview of the new Silithus battleground (Seething Shore). In BfA, the focus shifts from racial identity to the faction conflict. Unlocking Allied races is more story-driven. Reputation barriers will be lifted. Doing the campaign should suffice. Heritage armor is restricted to races. More Allied races will be added in the future, but they want to add those that make sense story-wise first. Hunched races - Orc is the big one here. From the early beginning, we saw Thrall / Saurfang that had proper posture and it was a repeated request and they totally understand it. Darskpear Trolls will remain hunched - it's a part of the troll silhouette. Zandalari Trolls are upright though. Prestige system in BfA? They're looking at how the feeling of progression has been in Legion and are re-evaluating a lot of stuff. They want to make sure Prestige rewards are still available. Artifact skins in BfA  will be spec-restricted. Far fewer Legendary items will be seen in BfA, Blizzard will make them where it makes sense. As of now, they have no specific Legendaries in mind. No plans to change the Mythic raid size at the moment. The raid structure remained the same in Warlords, Legion and the trend will continue in BfA. They want to explore an option to enable Mythic cross-server raiding sooner. The team feels that Tomb of Sargeras was too difficult on Mythic difficulty. A few months after Antorus opens, there will be nerfs to Aggramar and Argus the Unmaker on Mythic. Is Aman'Thul's Vision personal loot? There's value in preserving discovery. We'll see in two weeks. When Mythic Antorus opens (Dec 5), you'll be able to get Mythic rewards up to +15. Order Hall Cache rewards will be retroactive.  Will Titanforging still allow you to get Mythic quality gear in Normal raids? Yes. It's about the moment of surprise. While you can still get a lucky drop, the Mythic raider is in all cases better geared than that lucky player. Odds of Titanforging will be looked into. They think it's happening too often. The idea of upward loot scaling is being carried forward. The hard cap on Titanforging would limit progression. World PvP will be revitalized in BfA. Creating a space where players who are looking for PvP can more reliably run across each other is the priority right here. Some players don't want to server transfer, yet they are stuck on servers with faction imbalance. The current thinking is to preserve the identity of RP-PvP communities. Legion is the expansion that brought the biggest class changes to World of Warcraft. It's jarring to come back only to see your class vastly reworked. Demonology will see a significant rework and Survival Hunter (the execution of the fantasy will be looked into). In terms of class changes, a good analogy would be Wrath of the Lich King to Cataclysm transition, minus removing 20 points of talents and adding 3 abilities to every class. Class buffs provide utility and they are returning in BfA. Some Artifact traits will be made baseline or baked into talents. For example Stormkeeper is a new Elemental Shaman talent available in BfA. Removing drawbacks from abilities is an area they are the most hesitant to entrench. What's happening with Hati for BM? It won't be carried forward. It's tied to Titanstrike.  It's cool to have multiple pets up as BM. and it's definitely something they could expand upon in the future. Improving animations is a long-term effort. New Warlock animations should be ready for the BfA pre-patch. Relics diluted the excitement of weapon rewards. The plan is to go back to regular weapon drops. The Underlight Angler will be carried forward, unlike other Artifacts. 50 characters per account limit will probably not be increased, but they're listening to community feedback.