Ardnar

Lets talk about race!

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Hello my dear hunter friends!

 

For new expansion I'm comming back to Burning Legion EU, horde side.

 

Since im standing in front of race choosing problem i wanted to talk a little about current state of racial-hunter-dps matter.

 

First of all i was thinking about choosing Orc. Lets look now at Orc:

 

-Blood Fury - dps cooldown - Sounds good, isnt it? But im not sure how strong will it be at start of WoD and how it will look in later patches.

 

- 1% pet damage - I'm afraid its not too much.

 

Now lets look at second race. I was considering Blood Elf:

 

-1% critical chance - well, finaly other race then stinky dogs (no offense Worgen players - i just dont like Worgens) recived my favourite racial.

 

Arcane torrent - 15 focus generation - 2 min CD.

 

Trolls, trolls, trolls...

 

-15% berserker buff - tempting, but i dont feel it.

 

Yes, we can sit here and talk about how those character look. Maybe some of you care about lore. I simply dont. I'm gathering my old team and all i care is DPS. 

 

Whats your opinion?

 

And please, dont write like - roll blood elf, they are so cute. Or roll Troll, they overcame Garrosh!

 

Really guys I want to discuss with you about math, about straight DPS!

 

Lets talk! smile.png

Edited by Ardnar

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So, for Horde, at level 100, only including DPS-relevant racials

Orc
 

  • 1% pet damage

    Decent for BM, not really much for SV or MM, if this impacts Stampede and Dire Beast, its even stronger
     
  • Blood Fury - 345 AP for 15 second on 120 sec CD

    Comes out to an average of 43 AP, which is equivalent to 43 Agility in WoD

 

Troll

 

  • Beserking - 15% for 10 seconds on 180 sec CD

    Comes out to an average of 0.8% Haste overall, which is the same as about 80 Haste, assuming 100 Haste per 1%

 

Blood Elf

 

  • 1% Crit

    Comes out to approximately 112 Crit, assuming 112 Crit pet 1%
     
  • Restore 15 Focus every 120 sec

    Hard to quantify this in terms of DPS, but it's the equivalent to restoring 1 Focus every 8 seconds
     

Goblin
 

  • 1% Haste

    Comes out to approximately 100 Haste, assuming 100 Haste per 1

 

Pandaren

 

  • +100% to food buff

    As of now, it appears that the best food is the +75 buff for any one of the secondary stats (Crit, Haste, Multistrike, etc.).  So this racial ends up providing +75 to the secondary stat of your choice.

     

Tauren

 

  • +2% Crit Damage

    Hard to quanitfy in terms of stats, but if somebody can do so, feel free

     

Forsaken

 

  • 1932 to 2244 Shadow damage proc

    To quantify this, I would need to know the ICD, whether or not it can proc from DoTs, and the scaling, if any

     

So, in summary:

Orc: 1% pet damage, 43 AP/Agility
Troll: 80 Haste
Blood Elf: 112 Crit, 1 Focus every 8 seconds
Goblin: 100 Haste
Pandaren: 75 Haste/Crit/Mastery/Multistrike/Versatility
Tauren: 2% Crit Damage
Forsaken: 1932 to 2244 Shadow damage proc

Seeing how valuable Crit is for all three specs, I would definitely rank BE at the top right now.  Personally, I would rank as follows:

Blood Elf > Orc (BM) >= Goblin > Troll > Pandaren > Orc (SV/MM) > Forsaken > Tauren

EDIT - Pandaren may end up overtaking Troll if your spec values a different secondary stat far more than Haste.  Survival, for example, may get more out of 75 Multistrike on Pandaren than 80 Haste on Trolly (overall).  Same goes for MM and Crit.

Edited by Atrais

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Thats great comparison Atrais!

 

Maybe someone have different point of view?

 

I must say Atrais, i totaly agree with you at this point!

 

Still looking, still ready to listen your opinion guys. :)

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Thats great comparison Atrais!

 

Maybe someone have different point of view?

 

I must say Atrais, i totaly agree with you at this point!

 

Still looking, still ready to listen your opinion guys. smile.png

 

Keep in mind, much of this could change based on different stat weights.  If one or more specs end up valuing Haste much more than Crit at some point, 100 Haste from Goblin could easily outweight 112 Crit from BE.  It will always be in a state of flux. 

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I personally feel that Blood Elf might be the way to go from a raid utility and DPS perspective (I have Blood Elf, Orc, Troll and Worgen Hunters). Not only from the fact the 1% Crit is (currently) beneficial for all Hunter specs, but my main reason for leaning towards Blood Elf is because of Arcane Torrent; specifically the often unmentioned part of this ability:

 

 

Silence all enemies within 8 yards for 2 sec and restore 15 of your Focus.  Non-player victim spellcasting is also interrupted for 3 sec.

 

Granted, it's on the DR list so it shares DR with other similar abilities. But a small AoE Silence/Interrupt?? Yes please!! :)

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I personally feel that Blood Elf might be the way to go from a raid utility and DPS perspective (I have Blood Elf, Orc, Troll and Worgen Hunters). Not only from the fact the 1% Crit is (currently) beneficial for all Hunter specs, but my main reason for leaning towards Blood Elf is because of Arcane Torrent; specifically the often unmentioned part of this ability:

 

 

Granted, it's on the DR list so it shares DR with other similar abilities. But a small AoE Silence/Interrupt?? Yes please!! smile.png

 

Great addition, I was focusing primarily on DPS, but that AoE silence can be really clutch if saved for the right moments, and of course it is great in BGs for those pesky healers :)

If we are discussing utility racails, we should point out the following as well:

 

Tauren:  AoE stun, can be better in some situations than AoE silence

Goblin: Rocket boost, basically a reverse disengage, can be useful for burst movement (e.g. getting to a Malk puddle, getting behind adds during Noru test phase, getting to a Sha prison)

Pandaren: Single-target stun, less fall damage (but you should be ignoring fall damage anyways with Disengage)

Forsaken: WoTF, remove Fear/Sleep/Charm every 180 sec, probably not that useful in PVE, but deserves a mention regardless

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What food buff is Panda using in this case for MM?  If Crit is our best stat for MM, not sure how Troll with its ~80 Haste and Panda with its ~75 Crit are beating out BE

 

Best MM Races:

 

63bj2U9.png

 

Best BM Races:

 

zPizm2R.png

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What food buff is Panda using in this case for MM?  If Crit is our best stat for MM, not sure how Troll with its ~80 Haste and Panda with its ~75 Crit are beating out BE

 

All Agi food. Gotta think about kill times. Besides, look at the difference. It doesn't even matter what race you play. Panda - BE is about 60 DPS lol.

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All Agi food. Gotta think about kill times. Besides, look at the difference. It doesn't even matter what race you play. Panda - BE is about 60 DPS lol.

 

Of course, the difference between the Top and Bottom is ~1%, just confused, mathematically, how it was possible.  I realize now your sim is based off right now, where Agi food is best, while I was assuming WoD, where Crit food is best (for MM at least), and of course kill times could increase the value of beserking, i.e. when the fight is < 3 min.  I get it now smile.png

Edited by Atrais

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Of course, the difference between the Top and Bottom is ~1%, just confused, mathematically, how it was possible.  I realize now your sim is based off right now, where Agi food is best, while I was assuming WoD, where Crit food is best (for MM at least), and of course kill times could increase the value of beserking, i.e. when the fight is < 3 min.  I get it now smile.png

 

No problem :) Sorry for the confusion.

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Best MM Races:

 

63bj2U9.png

 

Best BM Races:

 

zPizm2R.png

 

Does there happen to be a SV version of this? Undead SV's racial will do increased damage from mastery and should go off more often due to dots

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Does there happen to be a SV version of this? Undead SV's racial will do increased damage from mastery and should go off more often due to dots

 

I believe TotG (undead racial) has an ICD, so even with DoTs, there is a limit to the # of procs per minute you are going to get.  Also, while SV Mastery should technically increase this damage, unless you are running a full mastery build (which would lose a ton of DPS based on current stat priority), you aren't likely to increase that damage by more than 12%-14%.  That means is TotG added 1% to your DPS, SV Mastery would add another .1%.  It's not nothing, but I doubt it moves them very far up the rankings.

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I believe TotG (undead racial) has an ICD, so even with DoTs, there is a limit to the # of procs per minute you are going to get.  Also, while SV Mastery should technically increase this damage, unless you are running a full mastery build (which would lose a ton of DPS based on current stat priority), you aren't likely to increase that damage by more than 12%-14%.  That means is TotG added 1% to your DPS, SV Mastery would add another .1%.  It's not nothing, but I doubt it moves them very far up the rankings.

Really? I have 27% Mastery just from gear right now so that's odd but you are right it's a small amount, but at the same time all the races are barely different so it might be enough to put them towards the lead. It's not much a difference regardless but would be interesting to see.

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Really? I have 27% Mastery just from gear right now so that's odd but you are right it's a small amount, but at the same time all the races are barely different so it might be enough to put them towards the lead. It's not much a difference regardless but would be interesting to see.

You have 27%? What gems are you using?  I'm 579 and only have about 14% Mastery when buffed, and it's possible you have some SoO pieces with more Mastery than me, but 27% seems really high.

I think the ICD is going to be the real limiting factor, even if your Mastery was 100%, TotG can only proc so often.  I'm sure Niix can run the same Sims above for SV and confirm.

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You have 27%? What gems are you using?  I'm 579 and only have about 14% Mastery when buffed, and it's possible you have some SoO pieces with more Mastery than me, but 27% seems really high.

I think the ICD is going to be the real limiting factor, even if your Mastery was 100%, TotG can only proc so often.  I'm sure Niix can run the same Sims above for SV and confirm.

Apparently I have 40 mastery from gems but that's only a ~2.7% increase (I'm 540 ilvl) also I'm talking buffed since I looked while I had a hydra out and didn't realize it. 

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Niix, how did you get your sim numbers?  I had done the same thing this weekend, looking at T16M, T17H, and T17M and I came up with Blood Elf on top.  I simmed the races again to make sure there hasn't been any simcraft updates that change what I'm seeing.

 

For my sims, I just change the race= to the appropriate race. Since Arcane Torrent, Berserking, and Blood Fury are all in the actions list, I've assumed that simcraft is automatically handling the race change for me.  When I do that, I get the following numbers, which are different from yours.

 

M9jGLV9.png

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You have 27%? What gems are you using?  I'm 579 and only have about 14% Mastery when buffed, and it's possible you have some SoO pieces with more Mastery than me, but 27% seems really high.

I think the ICD is going to be the real limiting factor, even if your Mastery was 100%, TotG can only proc so often.  I'm sure Niix can run the same Sims above for SV and confirm.

 

I am 588 and unbuffed I have 34.26% - buffed I have 47.13% and no, I'm definitely NOT gemming Mastery at all.

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I am 588 and unbuffed I have 34.26% - buffed I have 47.13% and no, I'm definitely NOT gemming Mastery at all.

 

Interesting, I must have gear with less mastery than you guys, bc I just confirmed in AMR, 14% buffed

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Interesting, I must have gear with less mastery than you guys, bc I just confirmed in AMR, 14% buffed

 

Buf

 

Niix, how did you get your sim numbers?  I had done the same thing this weekend, looking at T16M, T17H, and T17M and I came up with Blood Elf on top.  I simmed the races again to make sure there hasn't been any simcraft updates that change what I'm seeing.

 

For my sims, I just change the race= to the appropriate race. Since Arcane Torrent, Berserking, and Blood Fury are all in the actions list, I've assumed that simcraft is automatically handling the race change for me.  When I do that, I get the following numbers, which are different from yours.

 

M9jGLV9.png

 

Niix's sim was for current content, where best food buff is Agility, as opposed to Tier 17, where best food buff is Crit.  This accounts for why Panda is so much lower in your sim.  Troll Beserking value is dependant on how long the fight lasts.  A fight that lasts for 2 minutes has a much better Beserking uptime than a fight that lasts for 3 minutes, so that can skew Trolls' numbers.  Outside of those two, your ranks seem to mesh decently with Niix's, although he has Tauren a bit higher

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Just for fun, I ran some numbers on what the Troll Beserking Racial is worth in terms of Haste % based on how long the fight lasts:

 

(Assumes 15% Haste for 10 sec every 3 minutes, with perfect usage)

ebbCbGk.png

 

EDIT - Same done for Orc Blood Rage:

 

(Assumes 345 AP for 15 second on 120 sec CD, with perfect usage)

8MbUahX.png

 

  Edited by Atrais

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Niix's sim was for current content, where best food buff is Agility, as opposed to Tier 17, where best food buff is Crit.  This accounts for why Panda is so much lower in your sim.  Troll Beserking value is dependant on how long the fight lasts.  A fight that lasts for 2 minutes has a much better Beserking uptime than a fight that lasts for 3 minutes, so that can skew Trolls' numbers.  Outside of those two, your ranks seem to mesh decently with Niix's, although he has Tauren a bit higher

 

I just now simmed for T16M and have Panda on top, so it looks like you're correct about the food buff.  

For the Fight Length, I had the standard 450s +/- 20%, which is about 7.5 min.  If Niix is using a shorter fight length, which would seem correct given how easy the current content is, then yeah, Troll should move higher (and Orc).

My main concern is what will be best, come WoD.  From my sim, it appears that it will be Blood Elf, with Troll being 0.08% and Orc 0.28% behind.  Not a big difference.  The problem for me is that I've got my buddy in one ear yelling about giving away free DPS and a Blood Elf in the other whining that "I can't cast that yet!".

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I just now simmed for T16M and have Panda on top, so it looks like you're correct about the food buff.  

For the Fight Length, I had the standard 450s +/- 20%, which is about 7.5 min.  If Niix is using a shorter fight length, which would seem correct given how easy the current content is, then yeah, Troll should move higher (and Orc).

 

 

 

I'm not sure what is standard for simming fight times, but 7.5 min is a very long fight.  I'm not sure 7.5 min is really a good reflection of real raid fight times.

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I'm not sure what is standard for simming fight times, but 7.5 min is a very long fight.  I'm not sure 7.5 min is really a good reflection of real raid fight times.

 

The point that I was trying to make was that the races simply have a very very small amount of effect on your DPS. You should be whatever race you enjoy the most unless you care about .5% DPS, and at that point I assume you're running your own sims.

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