Phonoi

Subtlety Offhand

Sign in to follow this  

11 posts in this topic

This is my first time posting here, so pardon me if this is considered a trivial post, but it has been bugging me for a quite awhile and I am curious if there is an answer to my question.

 

Previously while browsing these forums, I have seen a couple of statements where subtlety's offhand is called a "stat stick", or Phemos' Double Slasher is considered equivalent or better than Ko'ragh's Boot Knife. I realize this is Highmaul gear, and things have changed, but I am still left wondering whether my following assumption is correct.

 

Given that Honor Among Thieves now procs off of the rogue's auto attacks as of patch 6.0.2, wouldn't a faster weapon, i.e., a dagger, be more optimal then a slower weapon, i.e., an axe?

 

Obviously, a few other factors would come into account when determining the offhand weapon, such as the stats present on it. I would imagine the mastery/multistrike on Phemos' Double Slasher would outweigh the haste/versatility on Ko'ragh's Boot Knife, even if the dagger is able to sneak in a few more Honor Among Thieves procs. However, given an axe and a dagger of similar stats, would my assumption/question prove correct and make the dagger better then the axe?

 

Again, excuse me if this is a trivial question, but I have been rather curious about this and have just gathered the courage to post here to confirm/deny my hypothesis using a more experienced rogue's knowledge.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

HaT will be proccing on cooldown - you have an entire raid full of people who are critting all the time to provide you with the extra point. Your autos make no difference at all

 

Your Sub offhand should be picked based on 1) weapon dps and 2) stats

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

just went sub today and checked out some training dummy numbers, this is funny. I put my Hansgar's forgehammer (heroic) in my mainhand, kept my boot knife (normal warforged) in OH and did more dps, using hemo as my main cp builder, then the two daggers. I'm certain that is not as intended.

 

I was going to use the hammer in my OH because shadowcraft says to, but in the end after banging on the training dummy the two daggers (one is oregorger's normal mode 665) gave me the higher dps.

 

My first day on sub and I could just suck at it right now but I found that interesting. I do see other sub rogues using an OH fist weapon from kargath

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's probably an anomaly due to the fact that you aren't in a group. Perhaps the faster OH swings were critting more frequently so you got more out of your HaT.

In raid that shouldn't be the case. Plus, Hemo as main cp builder doesn't Multistrike for your bleeds to tick down like BS does

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Again, it's all about what gives the most dps and the best stats, in that order. So higher ilevel > better stats > type of weapon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I remember when I was leveling this rogue, 2008, hemo was the main cp builder if memory serves, for sub, still costs less energy so I found myself getting a ton of more hits in. I went in on the raider dummy again with the hammer in my main hand and used hemo as the builder and still ended up with higher dps and damage done over a mh dagger.

Even on the damage tab under "attack" in the character tab it showed dps numbers suggesting about 2k more each weapon that way.

Unfortunately shadowcraft will not let me sub in a hammer on my mh so I can't show it from there, but I have to admit that it's intriguing enough that I am going to go into lfr with it and check out the numbers and log it, maybe even on a normal run on gruul or something, not sure on heroic I'd risk it lol but still it does have me very curious.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes it costs less energy, but:

  1. Hemo only does more damage than BS when the bleed ticks very close to the full duration
  2. BS does more damage any time that Find Weakness is on the target
  3. When BS multistrikes, it gives one instant tick of Rupture, which triggers a high amount of damage that ignores armor instantly

Assuming that you're playing Sub properly, you will always have Rupture on the target since it's your hardest hitting skill by far, and the more times that it gets to tick during a fight will increase your dps significantly. 

 

The reason that Shadowcraft doesn't let you have anything but a dagger in your main hand is because you need one to cast BS, which is better according to every Theorycraft and Simulation out there.

 

I'm honestly not sure how many other ways it can be explained to you

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes it costs less energy, but:

  1. Hemo only does more damage than BS when the bleed ticks very close to the full duration
  2. BS does more damage any time that Find Weakness is on the target
  3. When BS multistrikes, it gives one instant tick of Rupture, which triggers a high amount of damage that ignores armor instantly

Assuming that you're playing Sub properly, you will always have Rupture on the target since it's your hardest hitting skill by far, and the more times that it gets to tick during a fight will increase your dps significantly. 

 

The reason that Shadowcraft doesn't let you have anything but a dagger in your main hand is because you need one to cast BS, which is better according to every Theorycraft and Simulation out there.

 

I'm honestly not sure how many other ways it can be explained to you

 

 

The last line there, not exactly necessary man.

 

All I know is contrary to those theorycrafting numbers, and yes I have rupture up (again with the cheap shots, I love you guys) the numbers tell a different story - and I just find it very interesting. 

Just because it goes against spreadsheet formulas doesn't mean it can't be actually working. I don't know why but really if it improves my numbers in a raid, then I don't care.

Of course if it is really just a weirdo anomaly, I am fine with that as well.

Edited by gonlaz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They weren't intended as cheap shots, sorry if you took them that way

 

I don't know what your gear level is like, but if for some reason you have no Multstrike and very little Mastery it's possible that you don't see the same results as other people, but you really don't want to be building bad habits

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Similar Content

    • By Violentravi
      Hello,
      The Sworn is recruiting DPS.  We are a Horde guild on Arthas and our current progression is 4/9 Mythic TOS.  We only raid two nights a week, Tuesday and Wednesday from 9:05 PM until 12:05 AM Eastern.  Currently, our main goal is to push Mythis TOS progression versus clearing farmed content, please keep this in mind if you wish to join us.
      From you, we would expect 100% attendance during your trial period; after that if you cannot make a raid or will be late it is mandatory to keep the raid leader updated.  In order to continue making good progression while raiding only two nights a week, we expect that you know your class inside-out and will research any bosses you are unfamiliar with prior to raids.
       If you are interested, you can either reply to this thread and link your most recent combat logs for review or hit me up on battlenet, Violentnacho, recruiting officer (violentravi#1826.
      Thank you for your consideration
      Xoxo
      Violentnacho
    • By Fodia
      When I started playing again after several years off, I chose the wrong weapon/artifact chain for my Ret Paladin.  I choose Truthguard instead of Ashbringer.  So I am at 105 with Truthguard now and I was told by Bliz several levels ago that I could swap weapons at some point although I was not told how or when. I don't use Truthguard in play now just a normal weapon and seem to do ok. What must I do?
      From Blizzard -  "I understand you are contacting us about your starting artifact weapon! I know it would be frustrating wanting to use Retribution and the Ashbringer and getting the Truth Guard by mistake. I made this same mistake on my Shaman. I was anxious to get the Doom Hammer and didn’t realize I was required to use the Enhancement spec. I do have some information to share with you.
      The bad news is, once an artifact is selected, there’s no changing that. Luckily, you’re not stuck with this forever. You’ll need to go through some of the story line with the Truth Guard, but once you hit level 102, you’ll be presented with the option to pick up the other 2 artifact weapons. From there you will be able to use any one you’d like. ^_^"
    • By HansHolger
      Hallo everybody,
      I have a question about transmoging.
      I would love to use the silent Assassin set on my Monk, i that possible? I know that i can wear the t13 from druids, but not sure about that special rogue set.
      https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/transmogrification-rogue-challenge-mode-set
      Thank you in advance
      HansHolger
    • By weedle
      1. can i do comparable ( to subtlety ) damage as assasination rogue? what is difference in %?
      2. shadowcraft shows me that subterfuge is 25k dps more than nightstalker, is it real?
      3. simcraft shows me, that my dps now as assasination is 25-30k less than subtlety ( 55 and 59 artifact level ), will it be the same gap when i get 59 assa artifact, or subtlety damage is always higher?
    • By MarcHethrusWaters
      Maximum Effort is a new guild on Cenarion circle (A). I was the raid leader for my guild for a long time and we built up a strong raid team. Due to do some dis-agreements between me and the guild leader I was forced to leave. But luckly enough a lot of my team followed me! We're working to build a guild focused around team work and group progression. We love doing mythics, raids, talking and theory crafting about the game!
      We have a very strong-core raid group, capable of clearing heroic and doing some mythic but we're just missing a few people to round it out!
      Raid nights.. Tue/wed 6-830pm server (9:30-11:30 est) Off night Monday 6-830pm server (9-11:30 est)
      Looking for.. -Any and all dps specs
      - Non pally or holy priest healer!
      All raid mats and needs are covered by guild, we run personal look just for the ease of it.
      My btag is Hethrus#1504 if you have questions or wish to try out!