Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
Phonoi

Subtlety Offhand

11 posts in this topic

This is my first time posting here, so pardon me if this is considered a trivial post, but it has been bugging me for a quite awhile and I am curious if there is an answer to my question.

 

Previously while browsing these forums, I have seen a couple of statements where subtlety's offhand is called a "stat stick", or Phemos' Double Slasher is considered equivalent or better than Ko'ragh's Boot Knife. I realize this is Highmaul gear, and things have changed, but I am still left wondering whether my following assumption is correct.

 

Given that Honor Among Thieves now procs off of the rogue's auto attacks as of patch 6.0.2, wouldn't a faster weapon, i.e., a dagger, be more optimal then a slower weapon, i.e., an axe?

 

Obviously, a few other factors would come into account when determining the offhand weapon, such as the stats present on it. I would imagine the mastery/multistrike on Phemos' Double Slasher would outweigh the haste/versatility on Ko'ragh's Boot Knife, even if the dagger is able to sneak in a few more Honor Among Thieves procs. However, given an axe and a dagger of similar stats, would my assumption/question prove correct and make the dagger better then the axe?

 

Again, excuse me if this is a trivial question, but I have been rather curious about this and have just gathered the courage to post here to confirm/deny my hypothesis using a more experienced rogue's knowledge.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

HaT will be proccing on cooldown - you have an entire raid full of people who are critting all the time to provide you with the extra point. Your autos make no difference at all

 

Your Sub offhand should be picked based on 1) weapon dps and 2) stats

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

just went sub today and checked out some training dummy numbers, this is funny. I put my Hansgar's forgehammer (heroic) in my mainhand, kept my boot knife (normal warforged) in OH and did more dps, using hemo as my main cp builder, then the two daggers. I'm certain that is not as intended.

 

I was going to use the hammer in my OH because shadowcraft says to, but in the end after banging on the training dummy the two daggers (one is oregorger's normal mode 665) gave me the higher dps.

 

My first day on sub and I could just suck at it right now but I found that interesting. I do see other sub rogues using an OH fist weapon from kargath

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's probably an anomaly due to the fact that you aren't in a group. Perhaps the faster OH swings were critting more frequently so you got more out of your HaT.

In raid that shouldn't be the case. Plus, Hemo as main cp builder doesn't Multistrike for your bleeds to tick down like BS does

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Again, it's all about what gives the most dps and the best stats, in that order. So higher ilevel > better stats > type of weapon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I remember when I was leveling this rogue, 2008, hemo was the main cp builder if memory serves, for sub, still costs less energy so I found myself getting a ton of more hits in. I went in on the raider dummy again with the hammer in my main hand and used hemo as the builder and still ended up with higher dps and damage done over a mh dagger.

Even on the damage tab under "attack" in the character tab it showed dps numbers suggesting about 2k more each weapon that way.

Unfortunately shadowcraft will not let me sub in a hammer on my mh so I can't show it from there, but I have to admit that it's intriguing enough that I am going to go into lfr with it and check out the numbers and log it, maybe even on a normal run on gruul or something, not sure on heroic I'd risk it lol but still it does have me very curious.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes it costs less energy, but:

  1. Hemo only does more damage than BS when the bleed ticks very close to the full duration
  2. BS does more damage any time that Find Weakness is on the target
  3. When BS multistrikes, it gives one instant tick of Rupture, which triggers a high amount of damage that ignores armor instantly

Assuming that you're playing Sub properly, you will always have Rupture on the target since it's your hardest hitting skill by far, and the more times that it gets to tick during a fight will increase your dps significantly. 

 

The reason that Shadowcraft doesn't let you have anything but a dagger in your main hand is because you need one to cast BS, which is better according to every Theorycraft and Simulation out there.

 

I'm honestly not sure how many other ways it can be explained to you

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes it costs less energy, but:

  1. Hemo only does more damage than BS when the bleed ticks very close to the full duration
  2. BS does more damage any time that Find Weakness is on the target
  3. When BS multistrikes, it gives one instant tick of Rupture, which triggers a high amount of damage that ignores armor instantly

Assuming that you're playing Sub properly, you will always have Rupture on the target since it's your hardest hitting skill by far, and the more times that it gets to tick during a fight will increase your dps significantly. 

 

The reason that Shadowcraft doesn't let you have anything but a dagger in your main hand is because you need one to cast BS, which is better according to every Theorycraft and Simulation out there.

 

I'm honestly not sure how many other ways it can be explained to you

 

 

The last line there, not exactly necessary man.

 

All I know is contrary to those theorycrafting numbers, and yes I have rupture up (again with the cheap shots, I love you guys) the numbers tell a different story - and I just find it very interesting. 

Just because it goes against spreadsheet formulas doesn't mean it can't be actually working. I don't know why but really if it improves my numbers in a raid, then I don't care.

Of course if it is really just a weirdo anomaly, I am fine with that as well.

Edited by gonlaz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They weren't intended as cheap shots, sorry if you took them that way

 

I don't know what your gear level is like, but if for some reason you have no Multstrike and very little Mastery it's possible that you don't see the same results as other people, but you really don't want to be building bad habits

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You are comparing a 680 weapon with a 665 weapon under non-raid conditions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Similar Content

    • By Ohba
      Hey everyone!
      I'm a long time rogue, looking for a new place to hang out. I'm former cutting edge raider, but for the last year I've been playing more casually due to IRL commitments. What I'm looking for atm is a guild that raids somewere between 21:00-22:00 until 00:00, 2-3 day per week. I look for a guild that is doing mythic raiding.
      I'm atm alliance but I'm willing to transfer server and faction for the right guild, so everything is of interest!
      Thanks, Ohba
      For more info or a chat u can reach me at Ohba#2534
    • By Ithok
      If you are swedish, looking to raid 2-3 days a week, looking for a very social, fun but still competitive mythic guild, then look no further, we are the guild for you. Thank you for taking the time to learn more about us.
      About us:
      Geek Squad is a swedish guild that has been around for many years. We are currently focusing on mythic raiding and our goal is to always clear the current content before the release of the next tier. The guild is composed mainly of former hardcore raiders who can't play as much as in our younger days but who still want to play, have fun and have a good progression. Since we raid only 2 days a week we expect our raiders to have a high attendance and to be well prepared for current content. 
      Raid schedule:
      Wednesday Optional Hc clear: 19-When we are done
      Thursday: 19–22
      Sunday: 18-22
      We never extend beyond these raiding hours.
      What do we expect from you:
      - Swedish speaker; as the guild solely consists of swedish players we expect you to have a good understanding of the swedish language and be able to communicate on both voicecom and chat.
      - Attendance; as we only raid 2 days a week and keep a tight roster of raiders (not more then few on the bench at time) so being there and available even if not selected for certain boss is very important
      - Maturity; as the average age in Geek Squad is a bit above most guilds we would prefer if you are as well. We are a bunch of guys with families, jobs and real lives outside of the game and we understand all that comes with it. However if you are to commit to raiding with us we want you to be in it for the long haul. We focus on having fun with the game while also maintaining a competitive attitude, we hope you want to be a part of and contribute to that.
      - Social skills; be communicative, enjoy the game, let us know in advance if something is going to interfere with your raiding schedule so that we can plan accordingly. In our own modest opinions we have one of the best guild environments you can be a part of and we want to bring in more people who can positively contribute to that.
      - Know your class inside out and how to perform it to its maximum. Be able to take constructive criticism
      What can we offer you:
      - Stable guild; the guild has been around for a long time and we have no plans to slow down now.
      -We always try to bring the players that will give us the most chance of killing a boss on progression fights, this means you will have the same chance as everyone else of competing for a spot.
      - Experienced and motivated players; most of our raiders have played the game for a long time (vanilla/tbc) and are still highly motivated to get the most of the raiding time that we have together. If you are to join us we expect you to do everything you can to further those goals.
      - Occasional alt raids, not mandatory. Totally optional for people who want a little bit more raiding on side with their alts
      PROGRESS:
      Emerald Nightmare: 7/7
      Trial of Valor: 2/3
      Nighthold: 8/10 (10/10 HC farming on off days)
      RECRUITMENT:
      We are currently looking to extend our roster with 2-3 players and are looking for the following classes:
      Rogue
      Elemental Shaman
      Warlock
      Frost DK
      Balance Druid
      We don't have an application form as we feel that is an old and inefficient way of doing recruitment. Instead we focus on interviews as well as going through a bit of logs. We don't expect you to consistently parse in the 90% but at least showing that you know your class well.
      As for which classes we are looking for we are quite flexible at the moment as we currently have a good class balance already so we are mainly interested in you as a player rather than your class/specc. With that said we do specifically want a resto shaman and a rogue a bit more than anything else.
      If you are interested feel free to contact us.
      How to apply:
      To apply contact Ithok#2898, Krebb#2944, kebban#21852 or whisper an officer ingame.
      Thanks for reading and hope to hear from you soon!
    • By HiddenInShadowz
      Hey guys I have been having some dps issues on my outlaw rogue. I have 906 ilvl but I am usually one of the lowest dps. I have only been focusing on the ilvl of the gear and not really the stats so I am thinking that that is the problem. Any tips would be greatly appreciated thanks!
    • By Damien
      This thread is for comments about our Miracle Rogue Deck List Guide.
    • By Damien
      This thread is for comments about our Aggro Rogue Deck List Guide.