Heroes of the Storm Tyrael

[Erathis 53]

7 minutes ago, Leadblast said:

so much for your Tyrael knowledge huh

You know this makes you look very insecure yes?

In any case, forgive me for not memorizing details for a talent that practically never shows up in competitive and thus I almost never see used.  The talent tool tip does not say it grants Unstoppable and I didn't have a chance to test it because I'm at work.

Care to answer the question asked then?  Does Tyr win or does the Butcher?

[Leadblast 28]

52 minutes ago, TSRD said:

You know this makes you look very insecure yes?

Why would I be insecure? Unlike you, I have played this hero like hundreds of times before.

I think I stung a nerve on you and now you're the insecure one.

Now ask yourself, if you had kept your mouth shut, would that have happened?

 

To answer that question, I've never seen this scenario in that both heroes would charge at each other with their respective skills. So I have no idea of what would happen. What I do know is that it would be incredibly dumb of a Tyrael player to 1v1 duel a Butcher just like that, so I wouldn't cast Judgement on him, UNLESS I actually had teammates behind me to back me up in case that Butcher tries to cast Lamb + Brand on me. Then again, if the Butcher saw that I was actually not coming alone at him, and he was alone, he probably wouldn't charge at me either. And if we both were along with our allies in a big teamfight, I would probably find a better target for a Judgement than a Butcher.

But yes, Judgement is unstoppable once it gets going, past this 0.75s time window, before he starts dashing at the target. While he is unstoppable, some abilities like Zagara's Devouring Maw CAN still stop him in the middle of the dash. If other enemy heroes get in his way while he's dashing they just are knocked aside, this is in the skill's description, and I've seen it several times already, so that's a fact. Also it's still very much possible to interrupt Tyrael in the 0.75s time or cancel his Judgement altogether during that time by becoming untargetable (with cloaking abilities for instance).

Edited January 19, 2018 by Leadblast
"Thousands" was a gross overestimation of my actual time playing this game, it's about a single year, but enough time to have played Tyrael several hundreds of times before, anyway.

[MurkyFelix 51]

2 hours ago, Leadblast said:

Why would I be insecure? Unlike you, I have played this hero like hundreds of times before.

I think I stung a nerve on you and now you're the insecure one.

Now ask yourself, if you had kept your mouth shut, would that have happened?

Usually the person who first insults tends to be insecure about something relating to the topic, especially when about knowledge of something. Regardless of any insecurities running around here; I doubt it's common knowledge that the heroic does make Tyr Unstoppable during his charge/dash since the tooltip doesn't state it and personally; I've yet to see that heroic in action myself. Anyway; since the question couldn't be answered; see below;

2 hours ago, TSRD said:

Does Tyr win or does the Butcher?

To my knowledge and by definition; since there's a stun at the end of both respective abilities (and they're both Unstoppable during the dash) it would depend on:

1) The implementation of the abilities.

If the devs had implemented it as such that being Unstoppable and applying the stun were two separate things then who ever hits first would lose in the following sequence; charging while cc immune -> not being cc immune and attempting to apply stun onto target who is cc immune -> getting stunned. Though the concept of hitting first is quite iffy due to the second dependent condition below..

2) Timing and connection

If your connection to the server is worse than the other persons'; you'll probably lose. And by timing I mean the computation/adjustment of the pathing for tracking (again client/server bits)

Since hitting first should be out of the question (assuming good connections); they will hit each other at the same time so again it'd depend on the implementation. In short; if the Unstoppable and stun are at separate times (NB for both heroes); then they both are stunned (and knocked away in Butchers' case). If they're Unstoppable until the entire ability ends then no stuns (and Butcher again gets pushed)

As for a situation where this is plausibly possible; Tyreal get targeted by Butcher during the channeling and Tyreal has targeted Butcher. 

Sadly this isn't down the heroes's spec or anything and gets nitty-gritty into implementation that is hidden from us (sorry to administrators for off-topicness). Please note this is speculation based on logic and other bits.

TL;DR - They need to update that tooltip badly as cc immunity is kinda huge

[Leadblast 28]

3 minutes ago, MurkyFelix said:

Usually the person who first insults tends to be insecure about something relating to the topic, especially when about knowledge of something. Regardless of any insecurities running around here; I doubt it's common knowledge that the heroic does make Tyr Unstoppable during his charge/dash since the tooltip doesn't state it and personally; I've yet to see that heroic in action myself.

It's kind of hard for me to believe that you've never, ever seen Tyrael's Judgement in action before, unless you have a really short time of playing this game, and if so, you're really in no position whatsoever to question me, or imply that I'm insecure about my knowledge of the character (which is not the same as implying that I've already known everything). 

In any case, it wouldn't have been THAT hard to make a test yourself and come up with this:

[Leadblast 28]

I'm giving the situation a test (Tyrael vs Butcher AI in Try mode). It seems that Judgement wins over Ruthless Onslaught, but I'm not quite sure if the abilities were cast simultaneously. I have cast Judgement while Butcher was charging at me and I'm still stunning him (while not being stunned myself by Onslaught). Probably because Judgement is an heroic?

Also, while Tyrael does stun Butcher without being stunned, Tyrael still eats the Onslaught's damage. I even died once in the dashing animation (yes, my ghostly form was for a split second in a dashing posture before I moved it).

Edited January 19, 2018 by Leadblast

[MurkyFelix 51]

13 hours ago, Leadblast said:

It's kind of hard for me to believe that you've never, ever seen Tyrael's Judgement in action before, unless you have a really short time of playing this game, and if so, you're really in no position whatsoever to question me, or imply that I'm insecure about my knowledge of the character (which is not the same as implying that I've already known everything).

I've never seen a real player play TLV either (except on stream) so believe what you want ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Also I did not mean to imply anything; just seems like there's a lot of bicep comparing going on of late about Tyreal so everyone's insecure! (Hurray!)

Regardless; can guide writers update the discussion with that Tyr is cc immune during Judgement? <3

Edited January 20, 2018 by MurkyFelix
I did a typo :(

[Trensicourt 5]

I find it hard to believe that Salvation is not recommended. It's not a bad talent. There are many situations where my own survival is in far more peril than my allies. It's also useful to help me rotate back into fights. I am basically guaranteed a strong shield no matter how low my health is; without the upgrade, my shield feels meaningless at times.

I also find the same issue with Divine Vigor. It's not a necessarily terrible talent given its synergy with Tyrael's many AA talents. It's applicable anywhere and allows Tyrael to duel many heroes. With Purge Evil, both talents combine to make Tyrael a powerhouse in enemy backlines, gaining 105% more damage and sustain if your Smite hit 3 heroes - a common occurrence if you time right. With Eldruin's Seal, you might wonder what hero can stop you. Perhaps Divine Vigor and Purge Evil could be considered situationally recommended than not.

Law and Order I agree is not particularly impactful. There is synergy with Smite the Wicked, but I find the value is unreliable. Smite should reduce the cooldown of Righteousness by 1.5 seconds per hero hit instead of 1.

Burning Halo I find to be interesting. It's certainly not impactful as Horadric Reforging, but if you didn't go for talents related to Eldruin's Might, then there might be a case for this talent since the burn damage can be quite potent. Same with Smite the Wicked. Both talents should be considered situationally recommended if talents related to Eldruin's Might weren't picked.

Overall, I know this guide supports Eldruin's Might related builds for obvious reasons, but in cases where the utility could be forsaken, the AA builds are definitely on par in terms of viability.

Edited January 21, 2018 by Trensicourt

[PrivateJoker 27]

I'm honestly surprised Tyrael isn't considered stronger on Braxis Holdout. Being able to prevent enemies from contesting the objective with Holy Ground seems pretty strong. He can't necessarily hold one of those points indefinitely, but he can stall it for so long that it's just really useful. The fact that you get it earlier now actually makes it a lot more relevant. Plus teamfights that break out in those cramped spaces, almost always = good time for Sanctification. Righteousness gets a lot of value for the same reason, especially if you take Justice For All.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, while you can't use Righteousness on any of the big zergs in the waves (they're probably flagged as Bosses), I think you actually can shield the little chod guys that come out first? Not super amazing, but considering how many little bodies there are, that's a lot of shield. I only played 5 games with him today (only 1 of which was on Braxis), and the last time I really played him, I was pretty new to the game and certainly wasn't paying attention to those kinds of details. Feel free to correct that. I'm definitely gonna be playing him more going forward. He's a lot of fun, the rework did him a lot of good.

Edited January 21, 2018 by PrivateJoker

[positiv2 953]

On 20. 1. 2018 at 11:05 AM, MurkyFelix said:

Regardless; can guide writers update the discussion with that Tyr is cc immune during Judgement? <3

I'll ask Kendric to add a mention to the discussion. Thanks!

[Leadblast 28]

On 20/1/2018 at 10:01 PM, PrivateJoker said:

I'm honestly surprised Tyrael isn't considered stronger on Braxis Holdout. Being able to prevent enemies from contesting the objective with Holy Ground seems pretty strong. He can't necessarily hold one of those points indefinitely, but he can stall it for so long that it's just really useful. The fact that you get it earlier now actually makes it a lot more relevant. Plus teamfights that break out in those cramped spaces, almost always = good time for Sanctification. Righteousness gets a lot of value for the same reason, especially if you take Justice For All.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, while you can't use Righteousness on any of the big zergs in the waves (they're probably flagged as Bosses), I think you actually can shield the little chod guys that come out first? Not super amazing, but considering how many little bodies there are, that's a lot of shield. I only played 5 games with him today (only 1 of which was on Braxis), and the last time I really played him, I was pretty new to the game and certainly wasn't paying attention to those kinds of details. Feel free to correct that. I'm definitely gonna be playing him more going forward. He's a lot of fun, the rework did him a lot of good.

As usual you don't seem to know anything.

Tyrael's Holy Ground (and arguably Tyrael himself) is not that good for Braxis Holdout because it comes way too late in the game. A game in Braxis is usually decided by the second if not the FIRST control point activation. The vast majority of the Braxis matches I've played anyway. The first control point activation just comes way too early (before the 5 minutes mark) and it usually decides the match. It's a simple, short and straight map, with only 2 lanes, that dictates a very fast-paced game, not much to fight for after the first 2 zerg waves. Picks like Varian, who is very reliant on his heroic to do something meaningful are ill-advised here for that same reason as well. Tyrael's impact in the early game is much bigger, but not with a level 13 talent.

Edited January 22, 2018 by Leadblast

[Emergenza 6]

Leadblast... seriously... who the f*** do you think you are? I don't know you but just reading your posts in this Tyrael thread makes me thinking you should really prefer to improve your social skills instead of bringing your "How can I insult ppl. best and behave like a douchebag" to perfection. There are better ways to tell ppl. that they are mistaken. So sad this moron behavior found its way to icy-forums and seems to be tolerated by mods. :(

Edited January 22, 2018 by Emergenza

[Leadblast 28]

1 minute ago, Emergenza said:

Leadblast... seriously... who the f*** do you think you are? I don't know you but just reading your posts in this Tyrael thread makes me thinking you should really prefer to improve your social skills instead of bringing your "How can I insult ppl. best and behave like a douchebag" to perfection. There are better ways to tell ppl. that they are mistaken. So sad this moron behavior found its way to icy-forums and seems to be tolerated by mods. :(

Kindly take your own advice: go and improve YOUR OWN SOCIAL SKILLS.

I'm bearing with PrivateJoker's ignorance, but I WON'T BEAR WITH YOUR OWN STUPIDITY. Consider yourself reported.

[PrivateJoker 27]

36 minutes ago, Emergenza said:

Leadblast... seriously... who the f*** do you think you are? I don't know you but just reading your posts in this Tyrael thread makes me thinking you should really prefer to improve your social skills instead of bringing your "How can I insult ppl. best and behave like a douchebag" to perfection. There are better ways to tell ppl. that they are mistaken. So sad this moron behavior found its way to icy-forums and seems to be tolerated by mods. :(

just hover over that name and click "Ignore User", bro. Definition of "shitty toxic moba player". Hopefully mods wise up one day, but until then, there are other options.

[positiv2 953]

40 minutes ago, Emergenza said:

and seems to be tolerated by mods. :(

I was hoping that it would not have to go this way, but it turns out I was naive, and I regret it. Sorry for letting this go this far. There will be action taken.

[Leadblast 28]

That troll deserves the measures taken.

[Lorebot 1]

2 hours ago, Leadblast said:

That troll deserves the measures taken.

Lead, you're pretty toxic too man. Every post I've seen from you is aggressive, self righteous, and generally of the tone that leads me to mute/ignore people in matches. You may want to bring it down a little. There's no need to include jabs in every reply you make.

Edited January 22, 2018 by Lorebot

[Leadblast 28]

5 minutes ago, Lorebot said:

Lead, you're pretty toxic too man. Every post I've seen from you is aggressive, self righteous, and generally of the tone that leads me to mute/ignore people in matches. You may want to tone it down a little. There's no need to include jabs in every reply you make.

I'm not being toxic. If you think that's toxic you should see that troll Emergenza and I've seen worse in games as well as in many other internet forums.

I'm actually very much gentle and refraining myself from calling people names even thought they 100% deserve it. That doesn't mean I don't have to show my contempt for them. I feel pretty much insulted by stupidity/ignorance (more of the former than the latter) way more than by outright insults.

Edited January 22, 2018 by Leadblast

[Emergenza 6]

5 hours ago, Leadblast said:

Kindly take your own advice: go and improve YOUR OWN SOCIAL SKILLS.

 

It's the character of most trolls to not have a sense for irony & sarcasm. I know that my post wasn't polite and so for trolls it might seem contradictory to my own advice. But instead of that I just wanted to give you a taste of what you seed hoping that you see your mistake: Attacking ppl. in an inacceptable way isn't a smart option for conversation. You get what you put in. But obviously it's forlorn hope...

Another character of many trolls is to really think their behavior is appropriate. "Mimimi, I ain't toxic.. there are much more toxic ppl. out there, so my behavior must be fine.... if you think it's toxic, you are just to prissy / weak for what ever..".

Everyone should put his own house in order first. And at least I don't try to legitimate my misbehavior (if it may occure) by arguing: "But... but.. other ppl. do it too... in an even worse way!"

If I tread on someones foot even just lighty and he feels pain, who am I to say "Don't be a prissy mollycoddle, this CAN'T have been painful!". The one and only correct behavior is to apologize and to keep my maybe bad thoughts on my own. Get it? Probably not....

So stay on your throne and continue self-glorifying singing "I am the greatest".

Thank you at PrivateJoker for the hint. I didn't knew that. Much appreciated!

Edited January 22, 2018 by Emergenza

[Erathis 53]

7 hours ago, PrivateJoker said:

just hover over that name and click "Ignore User", bro.

Thank you.  Seriously.

[Valks 2,378]

The purpose of this thread is to discuss our Tyrael guide, not to bicker. As said above, actions will be taken against those deserving of them and the severity will be according to their behaviour on the site, not just in this thread. 

Any further comments that appear below mine on the same topic as those above will be removed and the user will be permanently banned from the site. Any relevant discussion on the guide is, as always, welcome and encouraged. 

[Morcalivan 86]

Can confirm that Defense of the Aegis resets extremely fast. Usually it's an automatic 20 second cooldown so far if you activate it in a fight. Can't say I enjoyed the other Tanking parts though. Even as a Tank Build I felt more like an underpowered bruiser. The mobility itself looks like the best way to avoid damage than armour so far. I think the tanking will have to come from shielding allies with shields than with body. The holy ground on top of an ally looks like the best way to protect them along with jugement/smite combo to stun enemies and then boost the speed of allies to escape. It also helps that it works with catching runners too. I do like how Tyreal's death can be used to discourage enemies from crowding around an ally too. But pure tanking? Meh. My attack speed was always enhanced but did little damage at all. Smite alone seemed to be doing most of the damage. So I'm not too sure being a bruiser would even work.

Edited January 22, 2018 by Morcalivan

[Lorebot 1]

3 hours ago, Morcalivan said:

Can confirm that Defense of the Aegis resets extremely fast. Usually it's an automatic 20 second cooldown so far if you activate it in a fight. Can't say I enjoyed the other Tanking parts though. Even as a Tank Build I felt more like an underpowered bruiser. The mobility itself looks like the best way to avoid damage than armour so far. I think the tanking will have to come from shielding allies with shields than with body. The holy ground on top of an ally looks like the best way to protect them along with jugement/smite combo to stun enemies and then boost the speed of allies to escape. It also helps that it works with catching runners too. I do like how Tyreal's death can be used to discourage enemies from crowding around an ally too. But pure tanking? Meh. My attack speed was always enhanced but did little damage at all. Smite alone seemed to be doing most of the damage. So I'm not too sure being a bruiser would even work.

Defense of the Angels is pretty bad for a bruiser build. You're much better off with the lvl20 for Judgement (lower cooldown, longer range) or Seal of El'Druin for the almost 100% uptime attack spd bonus.

https://www.icy-veins.com/heroes/talent-calculator/tyrael#29.7!3321134 is my typical Bruiser build for Tyrael. It gives him some of the best self sustain I've seen in the game and allows him to trade effectively with any hero. Just be aware that he's more vulnerable to burst damage than ever before with this build because he doesn't have the passive 15 spell armor anymore (at least according to the patch notes...it's still shown on the character select screen so I'm not totally sure he lost it, but it definitely feels like he did). If you're lacking wave clear at lvl 16 swap Smite the Wicked for Burning Halo, it gives some respectable aoe damage and will help you get to 10 stacks of Ardent Restoration much faster.

[Morcalivan 86]

I was using it for the tank build. Was testing out the righteous and smite combination with the aegis and eldruin armour. It didn't stop much. Since I couldn't do any damage, they would get more hits in over time negating the defense bonus  and the protection I did provide didn't stop teammates from getting wiped out, only really helping minions with area damage, but not actually helping waves clear since minions target one minion at a time usually. So that area defense goes to waste and just runs out unused. It's similar to an untalented locust. It has some health but the impact is very minimal. So more anti-wave clear than wave clear.

Holy ground on ranged characters getting dived seems like the best defense. Jugement for the same reason. Sanctification seems to only help Tyreal when he gets dived, but teammates rarely are in a position to take advantage of it, and trying to position yourself to place it on them seems to rarely work. By the time you get to them they're retreating, chasing a runner, or dead.

The theroy behind the double port and armour enhanced eldruin makes sense. By switching with your sword, the armour buff stays out and you can retreat still when the timer runs out, but I'm still struggling with the lack of damage. Not to mention mana. The lack of mana means that it doesn't really matter if I can stay at high health with my abilities since I will have to hearth for mana anyways. That's a lot of time spent riding back. And it disrupts the team on team fights by ensuring my team is outnumbered when I'm grabbing mana. So as far as protecting the team, that's a little bit counter productive there.

Maybe I just suck at him or am too new with him, but those issues seem to come up a bit for me.

[Lorebot 1]

1 hour ago, Morcalivan said:

I was using it for the tank build. Was testing out the righteous and smite combination with the aegis and eldruin armour. It didn't stop much. Since I couldn't do any damage, they would get more hits in over time negating the defense bonus  and the protection I did provide didn't stop teammates from getting wiped out, only really helping minions with area damage, but not actually helping waves clear since minions target one minion at a time usually. So that area defense goes to waste and just runs out unused. It's similar to an untalented locust. It has some health but the impact is very minimal. So more anti-wave clear than wave clear.

Holy ground on ranged characters getting dived seems like the best defense. Jugement for the same reason. Sanctification seems to only help Tyreal when he gets dived, but teammates rarely are in a position to take advantage of it, and trying to position yourself to place it on them seems to rarely work. By the time you get to them they're retreating, chasing a runner, or dead.

The theroy behind the double port and armour enhanced eldruin makes sense. By switching with your sword, the armour buff stays out and you can retreat still when the timer runs out, but I'm still struggling with the lack of damage. Not to mention mana. The lack of mana means that it doesn't really matter if I can stay at high health with my abilities since I will have to hearth for mana anyways. That's a lot of time spent riding back. And it disrupts the team on team fights by ensuring my team is outnumbered when I'm grabbing mana. So as far as protecting the team, that's a little bit counter productive there.

Maybe I just suck at him or am too new with him, but those issues seem to come up a bit for me.

Tanking with Tyrael isn't something that every composition is going to be able to capitalize on and depends greatly upon your team knowing how to play around him. Unless i'm queuing with friends I don't bother trying in QM, most people just don't know how to take advantage of his abilities and those that do rarely have faith that you're going to use them properly and just play without depending on them.

I've personally found Holy Ground to be very rarely worth taking, unless I know i'm going to be using it to steal camps from the enemy team or certain i'll be able to block choke points with it to secure kills or escapes I don't bother with it anymore. Garden of Terror, Infernal Shrines, and to a lesser extent Dragon Shire are the only maps that I really consider taking it unless my team is depending on me having it for some sort of late game combo or if they're repeatedly being dived on by a melee assassin (ie Illidan). It won't stop ranged attackers from killing people and it's usually just a minor inconvenience when used to block chasers. It also severely limits your ability to keep the buffs from Stalwart Angel, Burning Halo, or Smith the Wicked up for extended periods because you end up using your Q to create that blocking zone instead of waiting till the last moment to teleport to get the most uptime out of the buffs it provides. And on top of all that it ruins using Q as an initiation tool because anyone you throw it at will just be knocked away when you teleport at them, often ruining combos with allies aoe abilities as well as slowing Tyrael's ability to start hitting them since he'll need to move to a target before he can actually engage them. If Holy Ground provided armor or shields for allies standing inside the area it creates I'd rate it higher, but as it stands it's the least valuable talent on lvl13 in my opinion.

Tank build Tyrael will never be able to put out significant damage compared to other tanks. His strengths lay in mobility and buffing his allies, not damage output. He can slow enemies, speed up allies, provide shields, and grant invulnerability to an entire team if properly positioned, but most of the damage he does can be shrugged off by tanks or easily out healed by supports. So in the end we come back to the fact that Tyrael's performance as a tank depends upon your team knowing how to play around him.

[Morcalivan 86]

Hmmm, so yeah, I think tanking is just off the table for me. I can still protect allies by being a pain in the enemy team but speed boosting so that they can escape seems like the better defense. So, Holy Ground does well for that. Placing it in preperation for a future retreat seems to get the most out of it. Same goes for cutting off escape. You really just have to plant the thing before they start running then catch them off guard. The knockback that comes with it is nice and essentially extends the circle diameter by resetting the enemy movment. Using it on Dragon Shrines was pretty fun, not to mention mean since it blocks a whole entrance on the lower shrine. Add some Abathur mines and ouch. Haven't tried using Bound by Law just yet, but if I do, it would definitely be used with Holy Ground to multiply that control over enemy movement. It also did well on Cursed Hollows where there are a bunch of concealed paths and flanking options letting you get behind to plant the sword as you charge in to attack, then block the escape when it happens, similar to Leoric's tomb. Works very well with Judement which bypasses all those pesky walls and hitboxes.

But as far as personal protection goes, Stalwart Angel with Sword of Justice is the way to go for me. Having that armour out while being able to charge in and back seems like a basic requirement to fighting with Tyreal. I usually grab Ardent Restoration at lvl 1 just because it doesn't cost mana or have a cooldown compared to shields. Swift Retribution is needed to both stay alive and finish kills, not to mention let allies escape death, while Judgement on damage alone is a useful addon, but with Eldruin it makes it a very safe way of doing so. And it looks fricking cool when you do it then teleport. So bonus.

If I'm surviving  fairly well by lvl 20 then I grab the Eldruin Seal for more damage and healing, but if I'm getting killed then I grab the Aegis. If a certain character is a problem for the team, then a boost to Judgement is needed.

So far this seems to be working much better than trying some complicated Righteous/Smite/Aegis combo. My damage is still poor, but I can stay on them more often, which means more finishes. I think one game I had the lowest damage output but tied for highest kills, then another I did highest assists but no kills. Will be experimenting with smite again in the future just for damage, but that's more skill based and I'm not as accurate with it as I'd like yet.