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Small Raid Size, Tier Bonuses, Talents

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Hey guys, first post so I apologize for any mistakes I might make. 


So my question, discussion, is based mainly around interactions between the 17 2 and 4pc and the 18 2pc, and how that might change based on raid size. So I currently have all 5 pc of heroic 17 tier, and some other either 17 mythic non tier or warforged 17 non-tier, I only wear 4 pcs at a time and just swap out the shoulders for mythic neckbreaker with a socket. However my guild is currently raiding normal HFC, so I was wondering about the priority of the 18 2pc over the 17 4pc. I think in a decent sized raid group that 4 pc even after the nerf is exceptionally strong, and a good mana conservation talent, however due to some RL issues, our raid group has dropped from 16 people to 10-12. On top of that we're a ranged dps heavy group, meaning my chain heals frequently won't get the full benefit of hightide, and hit 7 people. If it were heroic tier I feel that the ilvl boost would be enough to warrant swapping out the old tier, but with it being only 10 ilvls at best, and less for any warforged gear, how the two would stack up in a raid group of my size. In addition, and quasi-related, I've been messing around with talents, and was wondering about throughput questions between EotE and AS. Now in fights where im utilizing my double SLT, then it's irrelevant, thats a huge CD thats worth some small healing increase. However on fights where that isn't the case, does AS jump ahead? And finally, in that case should I go back to glyph-ing RT, because I feel that nerfs the 18 2pc. I know this has been a monster of a post so thanks for any help :D. If anyone wants to just respond to any portion, thats fine, I just felt that all the questions sort of had synergy together in their answers.

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Well, first think that I'd like to say: forget about Glyph of Riptide. Just delete it from you mind completely :)

All the T18 bonuses - 2-p, 4-p and the class trinket are dancing around the Riptide spell. Cutting 75% of it's initial heal, you just trash all your bonuses.


EotE vs AS - no, if you have T18. More Riptides > more benefit from 2-p bonus.

You can switch to AS on the fights like Hellfire Assault where there's literally nothing to heal but still... I don't see a real healing benefit from switching (but you can do it if you are bored and have too much mana :) ).


Btw, Chain Heal with High Tide heals maximum 6 targets, not 7: 4 initial and two more with Riptide.


Regarding 4-p T17 to 2-p T18 switching - I did this and it looks awesome. 


Here is my log with 4-p T17 and here with 2-p T17 and 2-p T18. Look at the difference in Riptide average and Crit. It's awesome and I'd say that we definitely could trade this small mana gain from 4-p T17 (it's been pretty rare recently 5-7 times during a fight) for a nice crit of Riptide.

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"Here is my log with 4-p T17 and here with 2-p T17 and 2-p T18. Look at the difference in Riptide average and Crit. It's awesome and I'd say that we definitely could trade this small mana gain from 4-p T17 (it's been pretty rare recently 5-7 times during a fight) for a nice crit of Riptide."


Well that looks great, that was my initial read, and yeah I noticed that it hasn't been proccing as much, I don't know if it was another situation like the candle earlier where the actual rate was higher than stated and was brought down to 8% or it got an internal nerf on top of the external ones addressed. And I meant 6 lol I was writing 17 so much I got turned around, but thats awesome to be able to see the logs for a distinct before and after. And to be honest thats great news about the glyph of RT. I hated it so much but for our raid size and to be able to always get the most out of HT I felt it was nec with AS. But I hate removing the bulk of that initial heal, its our only instant cast spell and being able to use that as a quick save is very nice. I only have the tier helm but tonight we're likely downing 2-3 tier bosses, between that and bonus rolling, I'm hoping to get that 2pc rolling and its great to know that its the right way to go. Thanks :D, but while we're on the topic of tier and class trinkets, how highly do you rate ours for resto? I thought that it has some great use, and synergies well with our 18, however some of the discussion I've seen (mostly from the PTR, I can't find much of anything for resto since 6.2 dropped, aside from pretty basic stuff) didn't rate it all that highly. I was wondering if either you have experience or knowledge of where it compares to some of the other trinkets, minus the phylactery because... yeahhhh :D:D. Some people seem to put it as our #2 and some place it below that weird leech trinket and some even below the on-use trinket from Kilrogg. 

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I checked you Armory link now and was wondering whether you were assigned to tank healing? Why are you using Unleashed Fury talent?


Regarding our T-18 bonuses and class trinket, here's a very nice blog entry (cheers, Dayani): 6.2 Mini-Analysis: RIPtide (Resto Shaman t18 Set Bonuses & Archimonde Trinket)


TL;DR for 2 pieces of tier 18:

1. Increases the average healing of Riptides by the formula of 1+(0.25/(1+CritChance)). The overall healing gain from the bonus would be around 3-4%.

2. Increases our Resurgence returns from Riptide. No big numbers here but it's free ^^


TL;DR for 4 pieces of tier 18:

1.The set-bonus-generated Riptide does include the up-front heal portion, not just the HoT.

2. The Riptide has a separate spell ID from player-casted Riptides, and therefore stacks, meaning that you do not overwrite an existing, hard-casted Riptide.

3. If you are using Glyph of Riptide, the up-front portion of the 4pc Riptide is also reduced by 75%

4.  The set-bonus-generated Riptides do interact with High Tide

5. When you use Unleash Life, both heals are buffed by 30%: the initial Chain Heal hit and the resulting 4pc Riptide + HoT. If you have specced Unleashed Fury, the T18 Riptide and its HoT gets the 50% bonus healing.

6. We’re looking at a total of a 11-13% increase to our overall healing from the dual effects of this set bonus.


TL;DR for combination of the effects by equipping 4 pieces of tier 18 and the trinket:

1. The Riptides spread by the Core of the Primal Elements effect are affected by the 2-piece set bonus.

2. The Riptide generated by the 4-piece set bonus can be instantly spread by the trinket on the same cast.

3. You can get a lot of High Tide bounces without ever having to cast Riptide.

4. If a player has two of your Riptide HoT effects active, the trinket chooses the one with the longest duration to spread.

5. As the set bonus Riptide and a player-casted Riptide have separate spell IDs, it’s possible for the trinket to spread one, the other, or both, to the same player.

6. We’re looking at a total of about 15% increase to our overall healing from the combination of bonuses and trinket.


Dayani writes that the class trinket bonus is not that great in the overall healing gain numbers right now. But it works nice together with our tier set bonuses so while I wouldn't kill myself trying to achieve it, I'll definitely give it a go if I'll be lucky with drop.

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Right I had read that, however it was from the start of 6.2 (I think they mention it was PTR testing) so I just didn't know if that was still the consensus. So fairly mediocre without the tier, but does get better and better with the 2 and 4pc. Cool cool, thanks! And I just was using it because I was helping my girlfriend run some mythic dungeons and some of the tanks in there are a little dicey so I like having that to help keep a tank up a little longer when they over-pull or so I can precast it when I see a dps has aggro to get them back to full after one HW or HS. For almost every fight I have EB, sometimes on certain farm bosses might take PE, just to mess around and do something different. But EB is certainly my comfort blanket spell in that tier. 

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...I just was using it because I was helping my girlfriend run some mythic dungeons...

Ah, that makes perfect sense. I use Unleashed Fury in dungeons too. It's all about single target healing, help with dps on bosses and utility. So for 5-man i'm switching to Totemic Persistance / Totemic Projection, Ancestral Swiftness, Unleashed Fury and Storm Elemental.

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Really, storm elemental huh? I know it got a buff sometime in 6.1 but I thought it was still so atrocious that it wasn't worth it XD But yeah thats similar to what I run for them, I usually had been swapping back to persistence and going to the old CBT, mainly because it was kind of fun at the start of WoD before the tier came in so I figure why not. I also like to mess around with AG instead of rushing streams to get a rough estimate of what that looks like in terms of the healing it puts out, since I thought it might have a niche in raiding as well with all of the different zones we have to go in for I think 3-4 of the bosses. Still very situational and not powerful enough to warrant a pick unless the only issue is keeping people up in that different zones. Maybe in H/M Kilrogg but even then I don't see it getting out of hand in there with ascendance up, I hardly have to do anything with that up usually, but not sure how the damage scales in there with the different difficulties.

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Really, storm elemental huh? 

To help with dps in dungeons ^^

I'm using all the elementals on bosses and dps by myself when possible: faster kill - less to heal smile.png

Might be a habit from CMs and healing in ele spec in MoP. It was fun! 



I also like to mess around with AG instead of rushing streams to get a rough estimate of what that looks like in terms of the healing it puts out, since I thought it might have a niche in raiding as well with all of the different zones we have to go in for I think 3-4 of the bosses. 

I use AG in the other realm on Heroic Kilrogg. It's perfect there: 2 min CD exactly the time between realms and heals 3 people - you and 2 dps.

In this case I can keep HTT and Ascendance for the outside healing

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Ahaha see I was enhance in MoP so I missed out, I actually hardly healed all of MoP but did healing on my holy priest for heroic raiding in cata :D. And awesome, initially we had our raid leader, another solid dps and I go in, but our RL left recently so we had to send in others, before I didn't have to pop any CDs aside from maybe a SLT, but he was a feral druid so he was able to do great damage and hold most of the aggro, not to mention never stood in fire XD, so had to start using a healing CD which was a drag because I'd much rather use them outside with that enormous healing buff. Still did great healing, but know that AG is viable in there is phenomenal aha. I'm so glad I finally just made an account on here, I always have very specific questions, always trying to squeeze as much healing out of my class as possible, but haven't been able to find the answers anywhere, so I had to just try and compare logs, but finding just sort of high quality, but not like top 100 shamans is time consuming as all get out. And most of the top 100 are on 100% farm single healing with some sort of massive exploit just to get those top positions lol. So being able to talk on here is really great :D

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