Damien

Heroes of the Storm Murky

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This thread is for comments about our Murky build guide for Heroes of the Storm.

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It should be noted that "Slime Advantage" is very useful on Battlefield of Eternity, because on that map Murky will usually try to get as much DPS on the enemy Immortal as possible (you're frequently the "DPS guy" while your team is defending green). Unfortunately it competes with "Clairvoyance", which is also very strong on that map.

It is also generally a strong talent in all scenarios where you're often helping to kill "boss" enemies (Garden of Terror comes to mind).

Since you're giving up on "Compressed Air", it should of course not be taken on maps where you'll regularly be waveclearing a lot (that's of course not true for Battlefield of Eternity). I don't think that the zoning power of Pufferfish alone mandates taking "Compressed Air".

Maybe this can be reflected in the talent selection guide.

Edited by siggboy

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I deleted the above post, which seemed to be a duplicate (with the guest username "sigi", which, I assume was you).

 

It should be noted that "Slime Advantage" is very useful on Battlefield of Eternity, because on that map Murky will usually try to get as much DPS on the enemy Immortal as possible (you're frequently the "DPS guy" while your team is defending green). Unfortunately it competes with "Clairvoyance", which is also very strong on that map.

It is also generally a strong talent in all scenarios where you're often helping to kill "boss" enemies (Garden of Terror comes to mind).

Since you're giving up on "Compressed Air", it should of course not be taken on maps where you'll regularly be waveclearing a lot (that's of course not true for Battlefield of Eternity). I don't think that the zoning power of Pufferfish alone mandates taking "Compressed Air".

Maybe this can be reflected in the talent selection guide.

 

I find Slime Advantage to be a bittersweet talent; I personally like the talent's design, find it fun to use, and generally agree with your assessment. Though I do not recommend the talent, I do make the following and unusually editorial-esque note in the talents section of the guide:
 

"Slime Advantage makes Murky's Basic Attack damage surprisingly strong, nearly able to match that of Assassins. The main issue with Slime Advantage, however, is that Murky seldom has the ability to consistently attack Heroes to reap the benefits of the talent. Still, it should be given serious consideration against team compositions that feature two healers, as they may have trouble pushing off an aggressive Murky player. It is also worth mentioning that the talent makes taking Mercenary Camps very easy."

 

 

Simply put, I find it a bit too situational. Yes, it helps with boss-like mercenaries, and yes it punishes certain team compositions. However, its recommended alternative tends to be much more team-fighting friendly. We tend to focus on the talents that most consistently improve your chances of having an impact. I'll probably see to rate the talent as a situational pick (over non-recommended), however, as a result of your feedback.

-o

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I've been finding that taking bribe on Haunted Mines is super effective. It is easy to quickly cap the giants when the mines open and either force the team to peel away to deal with them or you get free xp since they don't sit in the minion lanes and get free shots.

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I've been finding that taking bribe on Haunted Mines is super effective. It is easy to quickly cap the giants when the mines open and either force the team to peel away to deal with them or you get free xp since they don't sit in the minion lanes and get free shots.

Agreed; I do make mention of it in the guide, in the abilities section:

"Though icon-murky-bribe.png Bribe has been falling out favour as of the latest patch, it has a niche yet potent application on the Haunted Mines map, where it can be used to deny your opponents' side's Ogre Mercenary Camp."

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I feel like Tychus should be included as a hard counter to Murky.. Can easily auto attack down pufferfish. His  Q and grenade combo takes care of murky in short order.

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I find this guide very unrealistic in a QM. Maybe this build works for AI, but in a real game it doesn't make any sense at all unless you're some Korean player with ultra fast APM. Even so, a lot of it seems extremely situational and depends on what allies you have. A typical Murky game, your objective is harassment, trolling, and throwing your enemy off the game.

In a realistic game, you want the bubble movement, it gets you out of danger faster. I've considered the block ability, but still the movement is far superior and got me out of tight spots many times. You also want the increase radius of the slim b/c Murky actually doesn't have any movement increase in comparison to other heroes. If you want to harass with slime, a larger AOE helps a lot. Building your hero around pufferfish is ineffective. In a real game pufferfish is utterly useless. Unless their team is stunned and allowing you to use it in combo, otherwise all they have to do is WALK out of the AOE. I've never seen a player bother wasting time attacking the pufferfish. They just walk away. Only time pufferfish becomes useful is when you get the slime upgrade for it. This allows you to toss a slim literally, then follow up by your slim ability immediately for bonus damage. I follow that with octograb and finish with another slime as the fish explodes. Instantly killing almost any non-warrior hero. Rewind works if you are facing 1 hero in a 1v1. In a crowded game, you'll die before you get a chance to rewind anything. 

I've seen murkies out there using similar build as this guide and I just laugh at them as I own them.

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I feel like Tychus should be included as a hard counter to Murky.. Can easily auto attack down pufferfish. His  Q and grenade combo takes care of murky in short order.

 

Safety Bubble does, however, completely stop Tychus' Q. He's not bad against Murky, but probably not a clear-cut counter like Li-Ming, whom I still need to add.

 

4. Summary of Tips and Tricks

Second point says about Cleanse (Uther) instead Pufferfish (Murky).

 

Intended.

 

I find this guide very unrealistic in a QM. Maybe this build works for AI, but in a real game it doesn't make any sense at all unless you're some Korean player with ultra fast APM. Even so, a lot of it seems extremely situational and depends on what allies you have. A typical Murky game, your objective is harassment, trolling, and throwing your enemy off the game.

In a realistic game, you want the bubble movement, it gets you out of danger faster. I've considered the block ability, but still the movement is far superior and got me out of tight spots many times. You also want the increase radius of the slim b/c Murky actually doesn't have any movement increase in comparison to other heroes. If you want to harass with slime, a larger AOE helps a lot. Building your hero around pufferfish is ineffective. In a real game pufferfish is utterly useless. Unless their team is stunned and allowing you to use it in combo, otherwise all they have to do is WALK out of the AOE. I've never seen a player bother wasting time attacking the pufferfish. They just walk away. Only time pufferfish becomes useful is when you get the slime upgrade for it. This allows you to toss a slim literally, then follow up by your slim ability immediately for bonus damage. I follow that with octograb and finish with another slime as the fish explodes. Instantly killing almost any non-warrior hero. Rewind works if you are facing 1 hero in a 1v1. In a crowded game, you'll die before you get a chance to rewind anything. 

I've seen murkies out there using similar build as this guide and I just laugh at them as I own them.

 

Seems we've enjoyed experiences that are quite different. I do make the following remark under the talent section for Murky: "Still, talents comes down to personal preference, and every talent should be experimented with."

Murky is, funnily enough, pretty polarizing when it comes to his talents, so I'm not surprised by your comment.

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Bubble doesn't stop tychus' Q it only stops damage. Tychus can still follow while in Q and often times get a kill by staying close and autoattacking him back down to finish him off with a grenade. I think you are underestimating the ability Tychus has to easily take out the pufferfish. Your other three choices of murky counters (Nova, Uther, Sonya) don't have much of a chance of stopping the pufferfish from going off at all. I think it's a mistake to not consider how hard/impossible it might be to stop murky's laning ability when deciding who the hard counters are for his character.

 

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You say March of the Murlocs lacks versatility, when it's Octo-Grab that's one-note. It only has one use: hold a target in place. Granted, it fills that one use extremely well, and I respect the Hell out of it for that, but I find it too situational and it makes Murky too vulnerable for the duration for my personal taste.

 

March on the other hand can be used in a multitude of ways. It's an effective siege tool, it's an effective zoning tool, and it's an effective AoE damage tool. And while Murky can be interrupted while casting, once cast he doesn't need to be alive for it to do its job. As far as I'm concerned, the only drawback to March is it's absurd cooldown.

 

While it's true that certain talents, builds, and even heroes are generally easier to use effectively than others for most players, there really is no such thing as "unviable", and thinking there is I feel promotes toxicity where QM and HL teams will self-destruct on someone who dares to think outside the box.

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On 7/3/2016 at 6:53 AM, Guest Senator Binks said:

Talents, builds, and even heroes are generally easier to use effectively than others for most players, there really is no such thing as "unviable", and thinking there is I feel promotes toxicity where QM and HL teams will self-destruct on someone who dares to think outside the box.

I know what you mean, and if it were up to me, I'd label everything as situational (bar a few specific ones). But, in the end, we are a guide site, and guides are always as up-to-date as they respond to the current metagame. I'm the first to dislike self fulfilling prophecies and talent expectations but whether we want it or not, 90% of players do not think that way (and some of them do not think at all!). We're trying to be reasonably flexible.

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Wow there seem to be a lot of strongly opinionated murky players around here. I'm a pretty open minded guy and I NEVER use absolutes when discussing hots strats. Now lets talk about counters... Tracer is the worst murky counter in the game. This is not an opinion. It is true in every match, on every map, in every region, in every galaxy, in every dimension. Tracer has removed murky from the meta and is currently mopping up the residual slime. Murky can't hit her. Murky can't run from her. What fishtank? ...and his pufferfish exploded before it was an idea... and you're dead... and it will all happen again 2% faster 5 seconds from now... But revenge is sweet. That one time... when tracer is contemplating which way she wants to prepare her murlock supper a moment too long and doesn't instantly blink away, recall, or simply attack at the sight of a pufferfish... murky seizes his opportunity and pounces with the octo! Tragically he realizes a moment later that he has something sticky attached to his chest. *Thud*

In short, Tracer can go mrrgl herself.

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On 10/26/2016 at 9:03 PM, Guest Dan said:

In short, Tracer can go mrrgl herself.

Sounds like you're quite the fan! :D

I believe that there are updates to the entire section that are coming in the future, so I'm sure the counters section will be updated to included any newer heroes.

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On 10/26/2016 at 4:03 PM, Guest Dan said:

Wow there seem to be a lot of strongly opinionated murky players around here. I'm a pretty open minded guy and I NEVER use absolutes when discussing hots strats. Now lets talk about counters... Tracer is the worst murky counter in the game. This is not an opinion. It is true in every match, on every map, in every region, in every galaxy, in every dimension. Tracer has removed murky from the meta and is currently mopping up the residual slime. Murky can't hit her. Murky can't run from her. What fishtank? ...and his pufferfish exploded before it was an idea... and you're dead... and it will all happen again 2% faster 5 seconds from now... But revenge is sweet. That one time... when tracer is contemplating which way she wants to prepare her murlock supper a moment too long and doesn't instantly blink away, recall, or simply attack at the sight of a pufferfish... murky seizes his opportunity and pounces with the octo! Tragically he realizes a moment later that he has something sticky attached to his chest. *Thud*

In short, Tracer can go mrrgl herself.

Tracer is easily countered with Bigger Slime, Slime Advantage and Continious Slime, as is does agains most squichy assassins.

 

I would also mention Brightwing in the Countered By page. His Phaseshift will let him join any hero you are fighting and his Polymorph will silence your bubble. He can easily chase Murky and counter it.

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On January 25, 2017 at 11:06 PM, Guest LtBel said:

Tracer is easily countered with Bigger Slime, Slime Advantage and Continious Slime, as is does agains most squichy assassins.

 

I would also mention Brightwing in the Countered By page. His Phaseshift will let him join any hero you are fighting and his Polymorph will silence your bubble. He can easily chase Murky and counter it.

Even with all three of those talents, a good Tracer won't let you get near her and kite you to death. The slow is alright, but because BlinkBlink has such a short cooldown, she can out DPS you any day. It's also worth mentioning you're just feeding her if she took Untouchable, as she can now kill you even faster with the 2% basic attack DPS increase. Octo-GrabOcto-Grab won't do anything for the basic attack/slime build you mention here, and she can negate March of the MurlocsMarch of the Murlocs damage over time with RecallRecall, meaning Murky can only deal damage if she wastes her blinks unnecessarily, something which doesn't happen if she's a half decent player.

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On 1/26/2017 at 5:06 AM, Guest LtBel said:

Tracer is easily countered with Bigger Slime, Slime Advantage and Continious Slime, as is does agains most squichy assassins.

 

I would also mention Brightwing in the Countered By page. His Phaseshift will let him join any hero you are fighting and his Polymorph will silence your bubble. He can easily chase Murky and counter it.

The Tracer point has already been answered above, so I won't repeat what Nite already said.

As for Brightwing, this is the same way that Brightwing counters pretty much any hero. It's not really a Murky-specific counter. Murky can just bubble and run away before Brightwing even joins the fight. 

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On 1/29/2017 at 8:37 PM, Niteshadow said:

Even with all three of those talents, a good Tracer won't let you get near her and kite you to death. 

Thanks for helping to answer :)

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1 hour ago, Guest MurkGod said:

When will we be getting an updated build guide for the new GOD tier Murky?

I second this motion. Hopefully it'll be updated soon, some of his new stuff is very interesting 

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On 19. 2. 2017 at 8:59 PM, MurkyFelix said:

I second this motion. Hopefully it'll be updated soon, some of his new stuff is very interesting 

The guide has been updated to the new format :)

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This is quoted from your guide:

Although classified as a Specialist, Murky very much plays like an Assassin; his primary team fighting goal is to single-out key opponents for quick, one-sided kills......

However the build that you provide us with have nothing to do with this description, why?. Check this build that I will left here, it would fit current Murky Meta players way better than the one on the site.

http://www.icy-veins.com/heroes/talent-calculator/murky#23.0!1112114 This build will apply way more burst and quick kills that the current one on the web. There are a few variation for example in the Talents 1 and in the Talents 13 but out of that this Slime build its the best out there for Murky. Looking ahead for responses.

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The fact that there's only one build shown is a shame, as Murky has a lot more variation than just one build.

Slime build: https://www.icy-veins.com/heroes/talent-calculator/murky#26.0!2112114

Slime build makes him a reliable burst damage assassin. I think the balanced build also works, but only to a certain extent and the other build provides much more reliable damage, dealing around 700 dps, while the balanced build deals around 600 dps at level 20. The balanced build brings a lot more utility and survivability, but on maps like Battlefield of Eternity or Infernal Shrines, more damage is required. Living the DreamLiving the Dream is heavily outweighed by Slime TimeSlime Time when combined with Toxic BuildupToxic Buildup and Making InkyMaking Inky, and while Fish OilFish Oil has more range and usage in laning, Toxic Buildup deals more raw damage in the end. Big Tuna KahunaBig Tuna Kahuna is a great talent sure, but without Making Inky, this build won't work. In essence it's a build for a game where you have little risk of dying, for example against a double tank double healer comp or when you're playing with heroes like Tassadar, who can can protect you in the absence of Big Tuna Kahuna. 

Edited by Ilonpilaaja

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I like the speed and CD reduction on the bubble.  It works really well with the heal on the bubble and makes you VERY hard to catch.  I also get Fish Oil as you can easily clear a wave mid game with Pufferfish and Slime (which feeds bribe without having to sit and attack minions), and even if they destroy the fish it isn't a total waste.  It just allows you to be much more annoying than some of these talents. 

I focus more on drawing attention from objectives and stealing camps than trying to help win team fights.  You can often draw 1-2 people away from the objectives and also if you get Fish Oil you can quickly clear a lane and join team fights anyway.  The bubble upgrades also allow you to really harass the back line better, which is nice because you can take the mage out of the team fight and often kill them (and sometimes draw the support off the tanks).  So far I am 13-1 in QM with that build/play style.  Not sure it is going to work in a drafted situation, but against random comps it can own.

Edited by ArtVandelay

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      One of the biggest changes announced at BlizzCon 2017 was the introduction of the performance-based matchmaking system for ranked game modes in Heroes of the Storm.
      In a nutshell, this new system seeks to quickly adjust individual player matchmaking rating (MMR) by using data from past performance, other players, and a number of other unspecified systems. Unfortunately, players quickly found out how flawed the system was upon receiving seemingly unjustified penalties to their MMR despite perceived strong performance, and ultimately figured out how to game the system to maximise their gains by exhibiting counterintuitive in-game behaviour.
      And unfortunately for Blizzard, the release of the system coincided with other “bugs” that affected placements and general matchmaking, which exacerbated the problem. Not one but two placement match history resets have now been performed. Blizzard claimed that the issues were not related to the new performance-based matchmaking system, but the system in question has been disabled for three days at the time of writing. I can’t help but to wonder why the system was disabled if it in fact wasn’t part of the issues, but I’ll offer Blizzard a highly skeptical benefit of the doubt for now. They need all the help they can get.
      However, I’m not here to criticise Blizzard’s course of action, which I believed to be reasonable and timely enough, if not a bit opaque. I’d much rather look into the very existence of the performance-based matchmaking system. I’ll start by going over some of the comments made in the official system announcement linked above.
      Blizzard (Source)
      The team-focused nature of Heroes presents challenges when using this system to determine an individual player’s matchmaking rating, since any single player is only 1 part of the 5-man team that won or lost the match. The system works since, all things being equal, a player will win more games than they lose over the long run if their skill is higher than other players at the same rank.
      I must admit I was not ready to respond to a “we know it works, but we’re changing it anyway” approach. Leaving aside the obvious flaw in basic argumentation theory, I know how frustrating it is to have a strong performance and still lose; I’ve certainly been there before. But, in general, players need to be groomed into being able to look at the larger, statistically-significant picture. If you consistently perform well and are never the cause for losses, you will rise. After all, the opposing team would have 5 chances of “messing up” whereas yours would only have 4. This means that if you can maintain an approximate 55.5% win rate, you know you’re good. (That approximate 55.5% value comes from 100 - 4 / 9 * 100; this calculation essentially compares each team’s chance at a liability if you’re never a negative factor, hence why it only take 9 players into account and giving each player an approximate 11.11…% of the responsibility for losing.). If your win rate is actually higher than that, you may even be good enough to even make up for negative factors on your team. That’s powerful, and certainly doesn’t require any fancy system to work, even in a team environment, unlike what Blizzard seems to be claiming. Even if your impact is small, you still have an impact.
      However, I don’t want people to get me wrong here; in theory, I think that the idea of a performance-based matchmaking system is great, though just not for the purpose of long-term MMR adjustment. If Heroes of the Storm did have a way to accurately identify high- and low-level players, the matchmaking experience would be vastly improved for both groups: high-level players would no longer have to endure low-level players with high MMR uncertainty, whereas low-level players would no longer be thrown into victimizing and soul-crushing matches. Higher match quality promotes player retention; player retention is profitable for everyone.
      Blizzard (Source)
      What differentiates a highly skilled player on a given Hero isn’t always obvious, though.
      In a complex game such as Heroes of the storm, is it ever? The system is claimed to be “dynamic”, which means that, over time, it reevaluates how it defines skilled play for a given hero as it is fed new data. However, in practice, I just don’t think "skill" is something that can be reliably measured by in-game performance data alone. Nor should it be. Let us draw comparisons between Heroes of the Storm and chess, which has used a similar matchmaking system known as ELO for some decades now. In chess, what would you say matters most between the two following statements?
      Claiming multiple pieces without trading your own?
      or…
      Focusing on claiming key pieces during key moments?
      The answer is “it depends”. Although both tactics may lead to victory, the first style is opportunistic whereas the second is analytical. Unfortunately for the second player, their strategy would be much harder for a performance-based system to evaluate; how would it know what defines a key piece, let alone a key moment? The first approach is mathematical; one is better than zero and, generally, “free” trades correlate with winning, which is more or less why they are inexistant at a high level chess unless intentional.
      In chess, you aren’t rewarded for losing less, and the reason for this is that the underlying ELO system is robust and self-correcting; rating resets don’t occur every couple months, let alone twice in a week, and rating gains and losses are small. Of course, the ELO system isn’t beyond reproach, but I think it’s fair to say that players understand that long-term results are what matter, not individual game results. And, it doesn’t run the risk of overvaluing Queen taking Rook because of insufficient or misinterpreted data.

      Queen literally takes Rook during a Tribute fight. Siege damage is important to Zagara, says data.
      As you can tell probably tell by now, I’m very skeptical about how such a system is supposed to evaluate what differentiates a highly skilled player, period, regardless of what hero it is they’re playing. Here’s a concrete example of what I mean by that: Although I don’t consider myself to be a particularly strong mechanical player, I have always managed to maintain a rather high win/loss ratios, for a team game, back in my active days anyway. Why? I’d be lying if I didn’t say that many of these victories weren’t simply due to outdrafting opponents, clear non-confrontational shotcalling, encouraging teammates, defusing infighting, taking every match seriously, knowing when and why to engage, going over mistakes, and generally making powerful macro decisions. On top of being that one weird guy that says “can play anything*, prefer assassin or specialist, let’s try to ban x and pick y.” Doesn’t reading that first thing in any given lobby instill confidence in the rest of your teammates? I bet this translates into wins every once in a while, so why not do it?
      I tend to thrive on waveclear tanks with strong engaging power because they let me decide exactly when a minion wave needs to push or when an enemy hero needs to die despite low mechanical ceilings.

      And now you know how to ban me out.
      *…whereas I couldn’t outplay most of my opponents to save my life. I accept my fate as one of the worst Illidan players in existence, and I’m fine with it.

      I have nothing to add, your honor.
      The great irony here is that none of the aforementioned elements that I feel make me, and probably many other players, reasonably strong are – nor can be – taken into account by any automated system because they’re simply too subjective. Why exactly am I being punished for not mindlessly using my abilities on-cooldown and padding my numbers? We get it; dealing damage is important. But what about useful damage? How can that ever be taken into account by a machine? This might sound like an argument from incredulity but, as I see it, we have plenty of evidence to conclude that the system isn’t quite working as intended.
      Of course, within this system, winning is still what matters most, and by far. Fortunately for me, my skillset does tend to translate into wins. But obfuscating one’s point gains and losses behind questionable variables is going to, at best, confuse players, and at worst, breed harmful behaviour. These two consequences have already been observed.
      TL;DR:
      A solid performance-based matchmaking system can have positive effects on matchmaking by allowing players to find their appropriate MMR faster. However, what defines a good player in a complex, team-oriented game goes well beyond what any data collection system can collect, interpret, and use. In its current state, the performance-based matchmaking system is at best unnecessary and at worst obfuscating, and ultimately risks breeding harmful player behaviour.
      I’ll allow myself to end on a bit of wisdom: If you play to improve, you’ll never lose a game in your life. And the sooner you quit worrying about your rank, the sooner you’ll be able to focus on what really matters.