nicarlitos

Bloody threat

21 posts in this topic

I'm a blood DK by trade and, of late, I'm having some issues with threat.

Often it is too high. This can pose issues on boss fights requiring a tank swap.

Our raid team's other tank is a prot warrior. I'm happy with the way he is playing, so I don't think it's necessarily his fault or down to his play style

For example, last night we killed the empress in HoF. It got a bit hairy in phase 3 because toward the end I pulled agro off the warrior and got mind controlled by her. I didn't taunt her, was just doing my normal rotation.

For context, I'm currently running around 10 ilvls higher than the warrior at the mo.

I've had this issue before, what I usually do is, after he taunts, blow all my RP and switch into frost presence for 5-10 seconds to drop a large amount of threat. I find this a pain to do, but I can live with it. On a fight like empress I didn't want to do this due to the intense raid dmg going on.

Is this just tough luck for a blood DK? Will it always be tough when paired with a 1h tank class?

I don't seem to have a prob when tanking with our bear.

I do have 2 hunters available for misdirecting, but I think this should be something we can sort between ourselves

Any thoughts appreciated.

Cheers,

Nic

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The ilvl difference can be quite the challenge at some times. You might want to make sure your co-tank is hit/expertise capped - if a prot warrior missed shield slam and/or revenge at the tank swap it can be very hard to maintain agro.

Maybe you'll have to stop attacking for a bit, or change into frost as you do now. It's slightly annoying, but way better for the raid than if you accidentally get agro :)

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Tank vs. Tank threat has been an issue for me both ways this entire expansion. I usually tank with a prot pally that will pull bosses back off me within 10 seconds after a taunt unless he stops dps. On the flip side, any other tank I've ever tanked with I usually pull threat off them if I do anything after a tank swap.

It's really a pain to have to stop since tank dps is actually high enough to make a difference in most fights.

Edited by Storm

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Sadly, I am having a problem with the exact opposite, me as Blood DK and our MT as a big bear. Only way i can seem to keep threat off him is by saving up my runic power for Dancing Rune weapon then popping right before i taunt. As you stated, i'm about 5-10 IL under him so he's doing a substantial amount more damage than me, ESPECIALLY AOE. In order to keep threat he's having to stop damage completely which is terrible in fights like Iron Qon when the more damage going out the better. I'm saving Runic Power for when DRW isn't up and spamming RS with it but still it's starting to piss me off and is extremely frustrating when i need to be concentrating on more important things. Nicar, how did you guys fix this problem? Help would be greatly appreciated.

Atheist/Pwner (Not really atheist just a name haha)

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Blood DK damage is a bit low this tier, and since our damage is directly related to threat, threat is low as well. Other tanks can simply get more dps out of the same levels of vengeance, so they are going to have to back off that much more for tank swaps unless the DK tanks goes into a DPS oriented build with haste and crit, which has a significant survival tradoff. Glyph DRW if you need to, and be vocal to your co-tanks. "Hey i'm rune starved. give me a few globals to get threat" is a perfectly legitimate request on a tank swap. Them losing damage is definitely not ideal, but in the end slightly less dps at the end of the fight from 1 tank is much preferred to that tank being dead from not being able to drop stacks because he wouldnt let you get aggro. Get hit/exp capped and use glyphed DRW, and if you are doing your rotation correctly and still having issues, then it's probably the other tank's problem.

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What we really need is about a 20% nerf to our aoe dps, and a 10% buff to our single target dps.

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The biggest issue is actually the vengence mechanism. Some classes (paladin, dudu, dk) get more damage taken since they counter it with self heals which leads to higher vengence and threat. Its easier for them to hold aggro after swap since they get a high dps boost faster than others like prot warrior (barrier is absord that doesnt generate threat while self heals do and also stop incoming dmg which lowers vengence gain).

I never had problem with holding aggro after taunt (prot warrior). Just stack up some resources and after tank swap be more offensive at the start at the cost of defense.

Also a lot of tanks are getting dps trinkets since the dimishing returns on dodge/parry are rough and for example Zandalari Spark (haste trinket with str proc) can be reforged to haste/master with strength proc also giving boost to parry. The difference in defense in low and the bonus to dps is HIGH.

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Sadly, I am having a problem with the exact opposite, me as Blood DK and our MT as a big bear. Only way i can seem to keep threat off him is by saving up my runic power for Dancing Rune weapon then popping right before i taunt. As you stated, i'm about 5-10 IL under him so he's doing a substantial amount more damage than me, ESPECIALLY AOE. In order to keep threat he's having to stop damage completely which is terrible in fights like Iron Qon when the more damage going out the better. I'm saving Runic Power for when DRW isn't up and spamming RS with it but still it's starting to piss me off and is extremely frustrating when i need to be concentrating on more important things. Nicar, how did you guys fix this problem? Help would be greatly appreciated.

Atheist/Pwner (Not really atheist just a name haha)

There are a number of things that can help with tank swaps:

1) Go into DPS stance. This will immediately drop your Vengeance stacks and reduce your threat output.

2) Have a Druid cast Soothe; this will dispel Vengeance as it is an Enrage effect.

3) Have a Paladin cast Hand of Salvation. This will reduce your threat while allowing you to keep your Vengeance up and continue to do good damage.

There are always going to be some cases where threat is a problem, though. The other day, I was running LFR with a slightly less geared Paladin tank on Tortos. I dragged the bats to the boss, started to cleave them down, and before I know it, I'm tanking the turtle in addition to the bats. I literally had to run halfway across the cave to get him to attack the Paladin again, and as soon as I ran close, he was mine again.

Edited by Tarazet

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Hmm, I do believe you that your protection warrior pal isn't doing anything wrong. I main tank as a warrior and I sometimes have this problem. I think all I have to say will just be tedious at this point, but in a nut shell :

- The warrior needs to shield slam and deal damage immediately after the taunt. Depending on what kind of stacks you have, he can also use vigilance on you if need be.

- The tank swapping with another needs to keep in mind that his damage, regardless of class/spec, will be much higher from vengeance. In my opinion it is tanking etiquette to stop damage for ~2-4 seconds to allow your threat to drop, making the lives of the other tank, the healers, and all parties involved much easier. And let's face it, in the grand scheme of things, that absent damage for a couple seconds from a tank will hardly matter compared to the total damage done.

Just like me, you may be thinking, "Well, it seems like every other time I don't have to stop dps after a swap...". But we just gotta suck it up and deal with it. Check out your omen meters / get a feel for the degree of your partner's threat generation during the mobs before the boss. If you pay attention to that, you can usually tell when you're going to have to back off the boss or not when the fight starts.

Good luck

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Prot warriors are fairly disadvantaged right now. We have one really high threat ability on a 6s CD. Shield Slam absolutely crushes, especially with Heavy Repercussions, but in the time between SSs, threat is an issue. For your tank swaps, your warrior should be using SS right after the taunt and have the Heavy Repecussions glyph when the fight allows for it. Additionally, if he's not dying to Empress adds, he should be taking Bloodbath and Dragon Roar to help with transitions. All of that will help him quite a bit, but you'll also have to keep in mind that everything we have other than SS hits like a wet noodle. Unfortunately, you'll both just have to do your best to cope.

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I wont repeat what everyone else has said but will tell you what i experienced in out group when we were running 2 DK tanks. I used to stop attacking and back off for a few seconds when this happened. He later changed to control spec as well (hit / exp capped) and it happened less. Now he is in the other group and I'm with a prot warrior and we don't have the issue at all.

If you are in the situation where you need that extra DPS so you can't stop attacking, try using the glyph of shifting presences as that let's you keep 70% of your runic power when swapping.

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Sadly, I am having a problem with the exact opposite, me as Blood DK and our MT as a big bear. Only way i can seem to keep threat off him is by saving up my runic power for Dancing Rune weapon then popping right before i taunt. As you stated, i'm about 5-10 IL under him so he's doing a substantial amount more damage than me, ESPECIALLY AOE. In order to keep threat he's having to stop damage completely which is terrible in fights like Iron Qon when the more damage going out the better. I'm saving Runic Power for when DRW isn't up and spamming RS with it but still it's starting to piss me off and is extremely frustrating when i need to be concentrating on more important things. Nicar, how did you guys fix this problem? Help would be greatly appreciated.

Atheist/Pwner (Not really atheist just a name haha)

Basically, I'm totally paranoid about threat now.

I'm always watching the Omen threat meter. If I see the other tank getting close I throw out a taunt just in case or dump a load of RP through rune strike. Having 2 taunts available is useful. Throwing down a Death and Decay can help too, provided the boss is stationary.

As has been said in the other replies, its also a matter of communication. Tell the bear to hold back...maybe even a quick kitty switch would help to reset things.

I've not decided yet if switching to unholy or frost presence gives the best DPS when trying to drop threat....but I also hate loosing DPS on progression fights.

IMO, this issue affects all tank classes in some way or another...maybe its time for blizz to change the way taunts work?

For example....the DK main taunt.

Dark Command

8 sec cooldown

Commands the target to attack you, but has no effect if the target is already attacking you.

How about this: if you cast it when the target is already attacking you it gives you a boost in threat relative to the next most threatening ally?

I would love to be able to pop this to give myself, say, an extra 10% when compared to the other tank. Would be a great buffer.

I'm not sure how well this change would sit for other tank classes....particularly as some only have 1 taunt available (I think).

Thanks all for the replies too....good to know I'm not alone in this!

Cheers,

Nick

Edited by nicarlitos

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Basically, I'm totally paranoid about threat now.

IMO, this issue affects all tank classes in some way or another...maybe its time for blizz to change the way taunts work?

For example....the DK main taunt.

Dark Command

8 sec cooldown

Commands the target to attack you, but has no effect if the target is already attacking you.

How about this: if you cast it when the target is already attacking you it gives you a boost in threat relative to the next most threatening ally?

I would love to be able to pop this to give myself, say, an extra 10% when compared to the other tank. Would be a great buffer.

I'm not sure how well this change would sit for other tank classes....particularly as some only have 1 taunt available (I think).

Thanks all for the replies too....good to know I'm not alone in this!

Cheers,

Nick

I agree with that idea, good call. I'm not sure if Blizzard would go for it... I can't reference it to you but I remember once a Blizzard employee released an article about threat.

I recollect him saying that Blizzard aims to make threat reasonable, but challenging at the same time. His example was something along the lines of, "... it makes the game fun and interesting. Remember the days when mages would pull threat and would have to ice block and blink to survive? Threat would be much less fun if tanks had it too easy. We want to find that balance between fun and challenge."

In a dungeon environment, I guess I could see the reasoning. But in raids?... It's not like a dps would pull the boss off the tank in the first place assuming they don't just burst at the beginning of the pull, which still would be unlikely.

Anyway, I totally agree with you. I am curious about what Blizzard would think about it these days.

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The problem right now is that out threating a dps isn't even remotely an issue. I haven't seen a dps pull threat after the first 15 seconds since at least Burning Crusade.

I would have a lot more fun if I had to fight mages and warlocks for dps again like the old days, but I don't like having to stop dps for 10 seconds on tank swaps in order to not pull the boss back. and I also don't like switching my presence because I like to build up a max blood shield before taking the boss back.

How about reducing theat by about 20% for every tank across the board, but make taunt generate 50% bonus threat for 8 seconds, either by debuffing the target, or by giving the tank a buff. I kind of like the idea of debuffing the target though, it would be an extra benefit for tanks that have an aoe taunt. This would also add some small benefit to taunting a target even after it becomes immune.

It also makes sense to give tanks a more active way of controlling their threat. most classes have a way of actively reducing their threat (ice block, feint, feign death, etc.) why not give tanks a more active way to increase their threat.

Edited by Storm
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I'll tweet Greg tomorrow. You never know....

Edited by nicarlitos
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I've not had too much experience with tanking in this expac unfortunately, but I seem to remember being able to click off the vengence buff, is that not the case anymore?

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I've not had too much experience with tanking in this expac unfortunately, but I seem to remember being able to click off the vengence buff, is that not the case anymore?

I never even thought of that. You deserve a cookie for that post.

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I do remember that I had to stop using addons to track my buffs/de-buffs, because you couldn't click off buffs while using an addon. I did a macro similar to the cancel aura for HoP from my pally OT, just for vengeance. Put it on an out of the way button, but easy enough to hit when you mean to hit it. (I had mine on a way too easy to hit button and I dropped threat like a rock when i wasn't supposed to. Ended poorly.)

Oh, and cookie preference is Peanutbutter, but chocolate chip will do in a pinch.

Edited by Nightimevisions
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I'll tweet Greg tomorrow. You never know....

I think you may have gotten through to him. the latest PTR notes on MMO-champion says that taunts are going to cause you to generate 200% bonus threat for 3 seconds.

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Yes!! I just saw that....I'll expect a cheque in the post Posted Image

Let the good times roll.

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