Survival Hunter 7.3

[Valks 2,373]

On 10/3/2017 at 9:05 PM, Guest Xardasos said:

hey

today i see a human hunter survi (female) she attack dummy on classhol and always when she have 3+stack of moongose bite she shine for red color. its a glyph ,visual bug, or only humans have dis?

Tested this on my Hunter (also female human) - might be a trinket proc or so, I don't see it. Have you seen it again on a character?

[Guest Krokk]

Unseen Predator's Cloak -"moderately powerful" "p-o-w-e-r-f-u-l"

Put on tier 3... wat...

[Guest Johok]

I really, really hate WotM. It takes all the fun away from this spec having to manage that. Am I really taking a big dps loss for taking Animal Instincts? I only do mythics and the occasional normal or heroic raid.

[Guest SacredBlaze]

17 hours ago, Guest Johok said:

I really, really hate WotM. It takes all the fun away from this spec having to manage that. Am I really taking a big dps loss for taking Animal Instincts? I only do mythics and the occasional normal or heroic raid.

I really do get you. I do not like WotM at all and I prefer much more Animal Instics or even Throwing Axes just for the gameplay. And if you are not trying to squish every point of damage you can get those two options are perfectly fine. In mythics+ maintaining WotM becomes tricky when doing lots of AoE or afixes mechanics or just waiting for the tank to pull the next pack of mobs, you will drop it several times so I'm pretty sure in mythics+ WotM and AI are pretty much the same. And if you just occasionally normal/heroic raid every now and then it's alaso perfectly fine.

I'm a mythic raider and I used to resist using WotM for the whole 7.0, 7.1 patchs and most of the 7.2, but after reading the Antorus set bonuses I knew I was going to end up using it. The raiding bonus sets pretty much focuses in one ability: Tier 19 focused on Mangoose Bite, Tier 20 focused on Lacerate and sadly Tier 21 will focus on Raptor Strike.. So if we are going to be spaming Raptor Strike regardless of our talent choices, why not just learn the whole WotM mechanic right now and forget about it until Battle for Azeroth?

So as a summary, if you don't mind losing a tiny bit of DPS just go with Animal insticts.

[Valks 2,373]

On 11/3/2017 at 8:29 PM, Guest Krokk said:

Unseen Predator's Cloak -"moderately powerful" "p-o-w-e-r-f-u-l"

Put on tier 3... wat...

It's an incredibly low budget stat piece that adds barely any benefit over items of the same type that aren't legendary, so there is no major stat benefit that pushes it to tier 2, despite a moderately powerful effect.

[Valks 2,373]

On 11/6/2017 at 1:47 AM, Guest Johok said:

I really, really hate WotM. It takes all the fun away from this spec having to manage that. Am I really taking a big dps loss for taking Animal Instincts? I only do mythics and the occasional normal or heroic raid.

Just to further what was said above, if you're unsure of whether you can make the swap or not, just sim the two talents against each other and you'll see how much you "should" be losing. In reality, if you can't manage WotM properly, you might even end up gaining damage depending on how badly you are doing with it.

[Guest Krokk]

15 hours ago, Blainie said:

It's an incredibly low budget stat piece that adds barely any benefit over items of the same type that aren't legendary, so there is no major stat benefit that pushes it to tier 2, despite a moderately powerful effect.

Right, thanks for answering.

Been using it for 2 weeks now and didn't notice much of a deeps increase whatsoever, at least  the debuff can be applied multiple times unlike that POS helbrine (would have been hilarious if it would only apply once lolz).

[Valks 2,373]

2 hours ago, Guest Krokk said:

Right, thanks for answering.

Been using it for 2 weeks now and didn't notice much of a deeps increase whatsoever, at least  the debuff can be applied multiple times unlike that POS helbrine (would have been hilarious if it would only apply once lolz).

Yeah, it's not great. What are your other options?

[Guest Krokk]

2 hours ago, Blainie said:

Yeah, it's not great. What are your other options?

Waist, Chest and crafted hands... that's about it.

Sephuz or Call of the wild would nice to finally drop.

[Valks 2,373]

On 11/9/2017 at 6:18 PM, Guest Krokk said:

Waist, Chest and crafted hands... that's about it.

Sephuz or Call of the wild would nice to finally drop.

Wow. You've literally been dealt the worst set of legendaries possible. I guess you're going to keep using the cloak, yeah.

[Krokk 0]

Is haste really that valuable?

I agree that some value of haste is a nice trait to have for smoothing the rotation but...

The difference between 13% mastery and 27% haste vs 35% haste and 8-9% mastery seems night and day.

With more mastery I am more than able to get to 6 stacks of mongoose fury consistently without aspect of the eagle, compared to when I had a lot of haste (despite pet getting more haste) it was much more prone to randomness.

Haste also doesn't seem to work for any of our dots which is a big bummer sadly, correct me if I'm wrong.

Too bad this all comes down to the spec being waaay too reliant on mongoose bite as the main DD dealer.

Why is every other of our skills so lackluster in damage, when most of the time mongoose bite will deal huge chunks of deeps?

You even have to ignore every other skill when you have 6 fury and 2+ mongoose bites ready... adding mok'nathal to this makes the rotation much clunkier too.

[Valks 2,373]

6 hours ago, Krokk said:

Is haste really that valuable?

At low levels, yeah. It's crazy valuable. It really starts dying off eventually, but only simcraft is going to tell you when that happens. After some stat balancing, you may even see it come back as a high priority stat.

[SacredBlaze 1]

18 hours ago, Krokk said:

Is haste really that valuable?

I agree that some value of haste is a nice trait to have for smoothing the rotation but...

The difference between 13% mastery and 27% haste vs 35% haste and 8-9% mastery seems night and day.

With more mastery I am more than able to get to 6 stacks of mongoose fury consistently without aspect of the eagle, compared to when I had a lot of haste (despite pet getting more haste) it was much more prone to randomness.

Haste also doesn't seem to work for any of our dots which is a big bummer sadly, correct me if I'm wrong.

Too bad this all comes down to the spec being waaay too reliant on mongoose bite as the main DD dealer.

Why is every other of our skills so lackluster in damage, when most of the time mongoose bite will deal huge chunks of deeps?

You even have to ignore every other skill when you have 6 fury and 2+ mongoose bites ready... adding mok'nathal to this makes the rotation much clunkier too.

Haste is more valuable because it scales much better with gear. In other words, you'll need incredible amounts of Mastery to notice a slight beneficts instead of Haste that not only smoothes out our convoluted rotation, but also reduces the CD of our main abilities (Mangoose Bite, Flanking Strike, Butchery).

+3k of Mastery = +3% of Hunting companion

+3k of Haste = +9% of Haste

As you can see Haste escales 3 times better than Mastery does, and it's also a permanent benefict. If you have more haste, your damage improvement will be systematic you will notice it, unlike going for a Mastery build where it only increases the "Chances" of a reset of a mangoose bite charge.

Let's suppose you go for a build of full mastery:

Case 1) You get really unluky, it means you sacrificed a lot of stats for nothing as Mastery does not increases your damage in any direct way as for example a BM does.

Case 2) You get really lucky, at most you are going to perform 10ish Mangoose Bites inside the 14s windows of Mangoose fury as you don't have enough haste to reduce your GCD, the cooldown itself of Mangoose Bite or your pet auto attacks which might give you freshs Mangoose charge (do not quote me on that last one I'm not sure if the Hunter's haste is reflected on your pet.. I know Spitting Cobra does beneficts from your haste tho) and you'll have to refresh WotM at least once, most likely twice.

So 10 Mangoose Bites every now and then are awesome as you get 4 Mangoose Bites at max power, but from my experience I can tell you it's nothing ground breaking, it won't be the difference between 1.2M to 2M dps. In my rotation, without using Aspect of the Eagle nor Snake Hunter, I would average the amount of Mangoose Bites to be around 8 or higher. It's really rare not to achieve at least the 6 stacks mark, and if you don't and you stay at 5 stacks once or twice it's not a huge deal now that our Tier19 4-piece bonus is nerfed and realisticaly out of our ilvl.

I do agree that Mastery in 7.1-7.2 was more valuable due Tier 19 Flanking Strike synergy, it actually had a cap were Flanking strike was guaranteed to give you a Mangoose Bite always.. But now that it's nerfed to oblivion and you most likely moved on from 905 ilvl tier19 pieces to 930 ilvl tier20 pieces (and in the next couple of weeks to 950 ilvl tier21 pieces) Mastery values has flopped again.

 

TL;DR: Haste is way more realiable to consistely increase your DPS.

[Krokk 0]

How good is soul of the huntard is for mythic+ when combined with butchery, counting both short and long lived trash packs?

[SacredBlaze 1]

20 hours ago, Krokk said:

How good is soul of the huntard is for mythic+ when combined with butchery, counting both short and long lived trash packs?

In my experience is really not worth it at all. Might as well go with Butcher's appron or Frizzo's Ring for Aoe specially if you have the tier20 2-part bonus. 

[Guest Myrorr-Xavius]

although these guides are great and helpful to many, i feel theyre slightly too focused around high end progressive mythic raiding rather than the average player, for eg. I feel like the author isnt saying explicitly enough just how little difference there is between the 'best' talents and the 'worst' talents in this spec.

I've mained SV since day 1 of legion, and ive been competitive in both aoe and single target using all combinations, Throwing axes and Dragonsfire grenade are absolutely brilliant in those moments which normally kill Melee's DPS and they both deal more than respectable single target (and great aoe for DgF) damage at a good range. My "go to spec" includes DfG as my main choice in that tier, and i use aMoC and it deals great burst and on bursting where you cant just nuke mobs crows resets and does massive amounts of damage.

but these talents are unambiguously stated as not viable in this guide, a reccuring theme on IcyVeins that ive found use for many talents that authors have said not viable. 

on a side note i notice "Mortal Wounds" has remained one of the 'non viable' talents on here up until this patch, but the other 2 talents havent changed since 7.1?, where snake hunter was nerfed and put as unviable. given the stat prios are basically the same and the talents havent changed why has this gone to a better choice than crows?

[SacredBlaze 1]

2 hours ago, Guest Myrorr-Xavius said:

although these guides are great and helpful to many, i feel theyre slightly too focused around high end progressive mythic raiding rather than the average player, for eg. I feel like the author isnt saying explicitly enough just how little difference there is between the 'best' talents and the 'worst' talents in this spec.

I've mained SV since day 1 of legion, and ive been competitive in both aoe and single target using all combinations, Throwing axes and Dragonsfire grenade are absolutely brilliant in those moments which normally kill Melee's DPS and they both deal more than respectable single target (and great aoe for DgF) damage at a good range. My "go to spec" includes DfG as my main choice in that tier, and i use aMoC and it deals great burst and on bursting where you cant just nuke mobs crows resets and does massive amounts of damage.

but these talents are unambiguously stated as not viable in this guide, a reccuring theme on IcyVeins that ive found use for many talents that authors have said not viable. 

on a side note i notice "Mortal Wounds" has remained one of the 'non viable' talents on here up until this patch, but the other 2 talents havent changed since 7.1?, where snake hunter was nerfed and put as unviable. given the stat prios are basically the same and the talents havent changed why has this gone to a better choice than crows?

Any build can be viable if you know how to run it propertly. Nonetheless, between all those build, which is the one that has the biggest potential of doing more damage in average? At the end of the day these guides are for top-end mythic raiders that want to squish every point of DPS they can.

That's why there exists the "Easy Build" section of these guides.

 

P.S: I want to see how the new CoF changes (from 4secs to 3secs and +13% agility) will change our trinket priority.

 

Edited December 5, 2017 by SacredBlaze

[Valks 2,373]

On 12/5/2017 at 7:11 PM, Guest Myrorr-Xavius said:

although these guides are great and helpful to many, i feel theyre slightly too focused around high end progressive mythic raiding rather than the average player, for eg. I feel like the author isnt saying explicitly enough just how little difference there is between the 'best' talents and the 'worst' talents in this spec.

The reason why is simply because it's different for everyone. For one person, it could be 0.1% difference, for another it could be 1% and for another it could be 5%. If we tell people that, with an ideal sim profile, it's a 2% decrease, we'll have people reporting that it's not true and that it's different for them, which is true. Instead, we simply list what is the best and worst talents should you go for a specific gearing strategy, aiming for the highest output strategy possible. 

On 12/5/2017 at 7:11 PM, Guest Myrorr-Xavius said:

I've mained SV since day 1 of legion, and ive been competitive in both aoe and single target using all combinations, Throwing axes and Dragonsfire grenade are absolutely brilliant in those moments which normally kill Melee's DPS and they both deal more than respectable single target (and great aoe for DgF) damage at a good range. My "go to spec" includes DfG as my main choice in that tier, and i use aMoC and it deals great burst and on bursting where you cant just nuke mobs crows resets and does massive amounts of damage.

What are you calling competitive, though? If people are happy to stay within a certain region of parse rankings, then they are completely fine to use whatever talent setup they want. I can only find one parse of you playing SV in Antorus and, while using DfG, you parsed at 43% current, 47% at the time. To many, this wouldn't be a competitive rank and the fact that you are using sub-optimal talents contributes to this. When you were raiding ToS instead, you ran the build that we suggested at the time (WotMN, Spitting Cobra, Serpent Sting) and parsed your last Goroth kill at 81%.

As I said above, the guides aren't there to tell you not to have fun. If you wish to play with a certain talent, you always can and I fully support anyone that wants to do that. We're not going to write the guides on the basis of what is/isn't fun, though. It's simply there to tell people what performs best and, given how talent performance varies on gear, we can't really have a list telling people how much of a difference in talent performance there is. It's similar to stat priority. It changes.

On 12/5/2017 at 7:11 PM, Guest Myrorr-Xavius said:

but these talents are unambiguously stated as not viable in this guide, a reccuring theme on IcyVeins that ive found use for many talents that authors have said not viable. 

Just echoing what I said above. Think it already answers this.

On 12/5/2017 at 7:11 PM, Guest Myrorr-Xavius said:

on a side note i notice "Mortal Wounds" has remained one of the 'non viable' talents on here up until this patch, but the other 2 talents havent changed since 7.1?, where snake hunter was nerfed and put as unviable. given the stat prios are basically the same and the talents havent changed why has this gone to a better choice than crows?

AMoC doesn't scale well at all as gear increases in power level. Every tier it gets worse for SV, since it only scales for MM/BM Mastery, not SV. We've now hit a point where it's just straight up worse. 

[Guest Myrorr-Xavius]

On 09/12/2017 at 12:47 PM, Blainie said:

What are you calling competitive, though? If people are happy to stay within a certain region of parse rankings, then they are completely fine to use whatever talent setup they want. I can only find one parse of you playing SV in Antorus and, while using DfG, you parsed at 43% current, 47% at the time. To many, this wouldn't be a competitive rank and the fact that you are using sub-optimal talents contributes to this. When you were raiding ToS instead, you ran the build that we suggested at the time (WotMN, Spitting Cobra, Serpent Sting) and parsed your last Goroth kill at 81%.

I don't really understand logs do they take into account I level or is that 43% of every Hunter regardless of ilevel playing survival that's logged on that boss? Because I think it's likely that 60% of all players logging are a better ilvl than me. On my first run of antorus I was only 935 think I leve and I've only done One run of antorus so far. So the low DPS can mostly be accounted to not knowing the fight wasting cooldowns etc etc.. this current week I've only done the bosses that drop tier tokens as I've been busy, and on those bosses I've held about 1.1-1.3 million DPS which was higher than the rest of the raid the majority of whom were similarly geared which is what I meant by competitive, pulling your weight in a group of the same illvl , as I said I'm a casual a casual raider. I think the fight logged was Immonar? And I did 876k tbh I jumped into that fight completely blind, this week I did 1.2m I think, I'll learn how log and log this next reset.

 

 

[Valks 2,373]

2 hours ago, Guest Myrorr-Xavius said:

I don't really understand logs do they take into account I level or is that 43% of every Hunter regardless of ilevel playing survival that's logged on that boss?

There's 2 options - it can display based on every hunter, or only hunters within your item level bracket, which normally spans 3-5 item levels. 

2 hours ago, Guest Myrorr-Xavius said:

 on those bosses I've held about 1.1-1.3 million DPS which was higher than the rest of the raid the majority of whom were similarly geared which is what I meant by competitive, pulling your weight in a group of the same illvl ,

In that case, then yes, it's viable to run any talent. We list competitive as putting up the highest damage your character can achieve through maths/simulation, which you then aim to hit, basically. 

4 hours ago, Guest Myrorr-Xavius said:

I'll learn how log and log this next reset.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/help/start/ - this will help.

[Guest xardas]

how can i use my secound affix for trinket from last boss?

[Valks 2,373]

49 minutes ago, Guest xardas said:

how can i use my secound affix for trinket from last boss?

The second proc will only happen if:

• You are in Antorus - it doesn't work anywhere except in the raid.
• You need to have 4 other people in your raid all proccing their primary proc on their trinkets to cause all of you to get the secondary proc. This needs to happen at the same time. 
• If your primary proc isn't active and your raid has 4 procs active, activating the secondary proc, yours won't activate.

[SacredBlaze 1]

Blainie will we get a new round of trinkets ranking soon? We haven't got a trinket update although Antorus trinkets were buffed some weeks ago and also the nerf to CoF.

[Valks 2,373]

5 hours ago, SacredBlaze said:

Blainie will we get a new round of trinkets ranking soon? We haven't got a trinket update although Antorus trinkets were buffed some weeks ago and also the nerf to CoF.

It looks like Azor forgot to add in the changelog/Last Updated date that he changed the rankings. The set up on the site is from the 5th December, post-hotfixes, so should be up-to-date. 

[Guest Myrorr-Xavius]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/17#boss=2076&difficulty=1&class=Hunter&spec=Survival&bracket=14

 

I realise this isnt ideal as its only a LFR but i checked out the Top Mythic SV kill and his SS did 4.26 % of his damage, DfG did 4.9% of mine, Top LFR did 3.9% of his damage with SS. 

The guide states that the Class Ring is only good if using butchery, uselss otherwise, but DfG + SS on any mob pack will mean a incredible DPS increase without sacraficing the ST like you do with butchery in M+..

Like ive said i love these guides and theyre a great starting point but i wish theyd be a little less concrete stance in whats good and "not viable"