Arcane Mage 7.3

[Guest Oli]

Hello Furty,

 

many thanks for your awesome guides.

I am new to mage and wanted to choose a spec which was demed best by the bests players, which it seems you are a part off.

 

I read your old guide regarding Arcane and have selected this as Spec/Artifact. I sadly saw to late that you are leaning more towards fire now.

(Also found out that 98% of mages I see are fire)

Would you change from Arcane to fire?

 

My Arcane artifact are lvl 7 and I am only lvl 104, so I want to make the change now before it gets to high.

 

I am not Mythic material, maybe Normal/Heroic, but I want to play a spec, which in theory could be the best, if I practice enough.

 

Best Regards

Arcane Oli

[Guest Elenya]

On 7/19/2016 at 4:21 PM, Furty said:

That's been edited out, based off of Artifact stuff (which extends AP a little).

It applies to both, actually, though Fire is stronger in dungeons.

I can safely say this is a prediction, and I'd suggest you alter that description. Everyone's afraid that Arcane is subpar, when its burst equals Fire and its AOE is far beyond it.

 

Optimal talent setup at 110, single target, is:

-Familiar

-Shimmer

-Rune of Power

-Supernova

-Ice Floes

-Nether Tempest

-Quickening

 

It's nowhere near weak in single target, is demonstrably superior to both Fire and Frost in AoE and kiting/AOE slows/roots, and, if played properly, is much more valuable. 

[Guest Oli]

Many thanks for your fast reply. 

Take care and gl in Legion.

 

Best regards

Fire Oli :-)

[Guest Elenya]

9 hours ago, Furty said:

Fire is much better, yes.

I wouldn't say it's "much" better. 3-6% better in ST and horrifically lower in terms of AoE, Kiting and CC isn't superior by any extent of the word.

 

You need to modify your summarization, because it's wrong. Arcane is not weak. Fire is not overwhelmingly strong. Optimal talents in your guide are wrong.

[Guest Zlatan]

I need to agree with Elenya, somehow stacking your Arcane Charges correctly and timing them with Arcane Barrage will proc missles really neat.

I must say, it isn't as "weak" as we think of it. Especially in AOE, I'm spamming Arcane Explosion until 4 charges (since it raises so high in mana cost) and then finishing with Arcane Barrage, then just rinse and repeat. It's dealing like 70k damage to every opponent on the third charge.

I'd like to have some tips on what spec to pick now before reaching level 110.

[Guest Elenya]

On 9/1/2016 at 3:40 PM, Furty said:

 

"Much" being relative? Fire has mediocre cleave and has to give up pushing "checks" to do any sort of decent AoE. Ignite damage on secondary targets is abysmal at best.

 

Fire isn't "particularly" better in raids by any extent of the imagination. It beats Arcane in ST by about 5% (Which, believe it or not, your talent setup IS wrong in regards to, go look at Altered Time's forums and you'll see which build is highest, it's not what you have posted) and Arcane beats it in AoE. "Significantly."

If you'd stated that being a complex spec, Arcane is better suited to those who like a challenge, that'd make sense.

 

As it stands, Fire is NOT overwhelmingly superior or even majorly superior. Individual mileage may vary, but that's no reason to discredit and mislabel a spec that is extremely viable in the current tier, at least until we see changes in the next few weeks.

[Tigersharrk 4]

Ok i'm soooo confused and looks like I have geared wrong while lvling (luckily caught this before I started doing dungeons).

So the stat priority is:

Int>SP>Versa>Crit>Haste>Mastery (as I have seen here and Altered Time) and not Int>Sp>Mast>Haste>Crit>Versa anymore??

AMR has it as Int>SP>Crit>Versa>Mast>Haste

Whats the correct stats?

Also why is Versa all the sudden better than Mastery (and everything else for that matter) and is haste back of the bus cause of Quickening?

Why is Erosion not good at all? (Just wondering you didn't really give a reason in the guide?)

Finally for AoE do you switch SN to Res and NT for Ero, as shown on AT?

Edited September 4, 2016 by Tigersharrk

[Brutalis 166]

Check the simulationcraft results. We clearly see that Fire does about 13k more dps than arcane, and given Arcane's complexity and how easy it is to mess up the gap can become much bigger. However I find Arcane the most fun to play and since I'm not a top 500 mythic raider my guild doesn't really mind if I'm not totally optimal.

Now, something I keep hearing about is this Nether Tempest + Quickening spam playstyle. The explainations I've seen have been vague but people swear it's the most optimal conserve phase now. Do you know anything about it? Could you explain/touch on it? I mean, the Arcane Guide on Alter Time claims it can give a whopping 100k boost in DPS and it seems the sims back up the claim.

Many thanks.

Edited September 5, 2016 by Brutalis

[Guest NotConvinced]

Mastery the lowest priority for Arcane? I've used stat priority as stated by this guide and unless I was sticking to an extremely low damage rotation I was going OOM after using evocation before any boss was downed.

After changing to a mastery priority I can full on dps without any need for barrage clearing for the majority of bosses. This means I'm gaining the extra damage amount from staying at 4 arcane charges and by staying at full 4 for the entire fight, with maybe a need for evocation on harder boss fights.

The downside is that I have down time after some pulls so tanks that blitz I'm going to lose dps naturally, but my single target on bosses? No problem.

Since this guide pulls so hard for Fire spec though I tested 10 runs as fire with stat priority stated as Icy Veins wants it vs 10 runs as Arcane how I have it and I'm consistently pulling better AoE and ST by 8-10%.

Seeing as how all of your streams since legion has had zero Arcane mage play (or any mage in general) I feel like this is a fire mage pushing for reasons not to be arcane with poor stat priority and bad information about how to use arcane charges.

[Tigersharrk 4]

22 hours ago, Guest NotConvinced said:

Mastery the lowest priority for Arcane? I've used stat priority as stated by this guide and unless I was sticking to an extremely low damage rotation I was going OOM after using evocation before any boss was downed.

After changing to a mastery priority I can full on dps without any need for barrage clearing for the majority of bosses. This means I'm gaining the extra damage amount from staying at 4 arcane charges and by staying at full 4 for the entire fight, with maybe a need for evocation on harder boss fights.

The downside is that I have down time after some pulls so tanks that blitz I'm going to lose dps naturally, but my single target on bosses? No problem.

Since this guide pulls so hard for Fire spec though I tested 10 runs as fire with stat priority stated as Icy Veins wants it vs 10 runs as Arcane how I have it and I'm consistently pulling better AoE and ST by 8-10%.

Seeing as how all of your streams since legion has had zero Arcane mage play (or any mage in general) I feel like this is a fire mage pushing for reasons not to be arcane with poor stat priority and bad information about how to use arcane charges.

That's how I'am feeling is that everything is based on this wonky notion that Versa is better than Mastery but Altered Time does have the same stat priority there as well that isn't done by Furty so maybe he just pull it form there since he's more focused on fire. I would like to see a guide done by a main Arcane but after walk my class order halls and seeing it flooded with fire mages that is unlikely.

 

So should I just keep stacking Mastery and Haste or what do you think the priority should be? Cause this is getting confusing! (Especially when no one answers my questions,sigh).

[Tigersharrk 4]

16 hours ago, Furty said:

I'm not really "focused" on any one spec in particular, just on what is correct. Mastery isn't that strong because the ratio of extra 4 charge blasts gained from regen versus just doing more damage all the time is too low for it to be an effectual stat. Conceptually the stat should be good but it is not balanced correctly, unsure of what exactly is confusing or wonky about that.

Whats confusing is that AMR has it Int>Crit>Versa>Mastery>Haste, You and AT have it Int>Versa>Crit>Haste>Mastery and "not convinced" is right with no mastery you would go OOM very quickly as well as without haste your AB takes forever to cast. Unless you are taking into consideration the NT spam (which i'm still having a problem comprehending as NT isn't really giving AM that much even when spammed). Which is also why im trying to get guys like "Not Convinced", "No Thx" and "Elenya" to elborate and contribute their stats and such instead of just criticizing you. I personally feel the stats should be Int>Versa>Mastery> Haste>=Crit or Int>Mastery>Versa>Haste>=Crit. I digress im not a "simmer" I just want to raid and have fun while getting some cool gear and i go here to get me on the right path to raiding.

[Brutalis 166]

15 hours ago, Tigersharrk said:

Unless you are taking into consideration the NT spam (which i'm still having a problem comprehending as NT isn't really giving AM that much even when spammed).

Exactly this. How does this work? I'm trying it on a dummy and it just isn't giving that 100k DPS increase people claim.

[Tigersharrk 4]

38 minutes ago, Brutalis said:

Exactly this. How does this work? I'm trying it on a dummy and it just isn't giving that 100k DPS increase people claim.

Straight from AT:

Arcane NT-Spam Playstyle:
NT-Spam playstyle centers around abuse of NT, and Quickening. The goal is to maintain max Quickening stacks through the use of NT spam to proc AM casts, AM casts, and AE.

The traditional "conserve" rotation is replaced by a rotation that consists of spamming NT. AB is used to build Arcane Charges, or to burn mana if you are high (>70ish%). At 4xAC, you want to be using AB so long as your mana is high, else spamming NT. Once Quickening is about to fall off, you prioritize using AM to refresh it. If Quickening if about to fall of and you have no AM, you use AE to refresh and continue spamming NT. Things like Super Nova / Mark of Aluneth are used close to on Cooldown. If you are running ROP, RoP is sync'd to MoA uses, Burn phases, and instances of
being capped on RoP charges.

The "burn" phase is initiated when you have Evocation nearly off CD, and Arcane Power available. Here you play a fairly standard burn rotation - using AP and RoP together, spamming AB and AMing when you have it. NT is now a mana throttle - should your mana pool fall too low without Evocation CD up yet, you revert to NT spam to gain AM charges and regen mana. AE serves the same purpose as in Conserve.

The primary goal should always be keeping Quickening stacks up. If at any point you are not able to maintain max stacks (which takes a few minutes to build up) this playstyle is sub-optimal. For that reason, one should use caution in applying it to in-game scenarios. This requires you to be in melee. If mechanics force you out, unless you are smart with AM banking, Quickening will fall. If there are large movement times or phase transitions, this will not be playable.

I'm still not seeing the numbers but maybe cause im not using AB as much as spamming NT and AE waiting for AM's.

[Guest NotConvinced]

After testing with better gear (840+) I will continue to insist that the proper Arcane stat priority is Mastery>Critical Strike>Versatility>Haste  with crit almost as important as mastery.

Everyone keeps focusing on the mana regen and mana increase (which is really important for high damage arcane output) but mastery has something more important, damage gained from each arcane charge. At 840+ gear you should be getting close to ~20-22% damage boost ontop of the 60% damage increase from each arcane charge. Couple that with more mana and more regen and you can easily stay at high mana levels through any 5-man heroic (and most mythics) without the need of using barrage to clear charges and go back to a low damage/low mana consumption rotation.

While critical strikes are at the risk of RNG mastery damage boost per arcane charge is not, meaning it's guaranteed damage increases which can be further boosted with a high crit rate. Also mastery mana levels boost the already considerable damage of Mark of Aluneth giving you a stronger AoE mana-free spell.

So to make my case mastery boosts mana regen keeping you at high mana longer, more mana to blow on  high damage full arcane charged spells and increase damage of your artifact spell, and a guaranteed damage increase across your most cast spells. This mastery is powerful for a reason, and is often misused.

Every time I've ran simulations my dps is much much lower than in game dps because the simulations insist on dumping arcane charges way more often than it needs to be because of the high damage of arcane barrage skewing the results while not taking into account the time to get back to full damage.

[Valks 2,407]

5 hours ago, Guest NotConvinced said:

After testing with better gear (840+) I will continue to insist that the proper Arcane stat priority is Mastery>Critical Strike>Versatility>Haste  with crit almost as important as mastery.

Everyone keeps focusing on the mana regen and mana increase (which is really important for high damage arcane output) but mastery has something more important, damage gained from each arcane charge. At 840+ gear you should be getting close to ~20-22% damage boost ontop of the 60% damage increase from each arcane charge. Couple that with more mana and more regen and you can easily stay at high mana levels through any 5-man heroic (and most mythics) without the need of using barrage to clear charges and go back to a low damage/low mana consumption rotation.

While critical strikes are at the risk of RNG mastery damage boost per arcane charge is not, meaning it's guaranteed damage increases which can be further boosted with a high crit rate. Also mastery mana levels boost the already considerable damage of Mark of Aluneth giving you a stronger AoE mana-free spell.

So to make my case mastery boosts mana regen keeping you at high mana longer, more mana to blow on  high damage full arcane charged spells and increase damage of your artifact spell, and a guaranteed damage increase across your most cast spells. This mastery is powerful for a reason, and is often misused.

Every time I've ran simulations my dps is much much lower than in game dps because the simulations insist on dumping arcane charges way more often than it needs to be because of the high damage of arcane barrage skewing the results while not taking into account the time to get back to full damage.

When assessing something like this, it can often help to provide examples of what you are talking about. Can you show us a log in a dungeon, comparing Mastery to Versatility?

This is by no means calling you out, it just helps us to see exactly what you are talking about. There are a number of reasons differences can occur and a log allows us to assess everything at face value. It also allows us to check fight length etc.

[Guest NotConvinced]

2 hours ago, Blainie said:

When assessing something like this, it can often help to provide examples of what you are talking about. Can you show us a log in a dungeon, comparing Mastery to Versatility?

This is by no means calling you out, it just helps us to see exactly what you are talking about. There are a number of reasons differences can occur and a log allows us to assess everything at face value. It also allows us to check fight length etc.

I can't because I didn't think far enough ahead. I can try and rebuild a set with the stats recommended and rotation stated by the guide, but I had to take time off of work to even get the amount of play time I had to sink into my mage so it may take an ungodly amount of time.

[Valks 2,407]

9 hours ago, Guest NotConvinced said:

I can't because I didn't think far enough ahead. I can try and rebuild a set with the stats recommended and rotation stated by the guide, but I had to take time off of work to even get the amount of play time I had to sink into my mage so it may take an ungodly amount of time.

Sim comparison can also work then. Simming two different gearsets at the same item level against each other eliminates human error.

[Tigersharrk 4]

On 9/9/2016 at 9:46 AM, Guest NotConvinced said:

After testing with better gear (840+) I will continue to insist that the proper Arcane stat priority is Mastery>Critical Strike>Versatility>Haste  with crit almost as important as mastery.

Everyone keeps focusing on the mana regen and mana increase (which is really important for high damage arcane output) but mastery has something more important, damage gained from each arcane charge. At 840+ gear you should be getting close to ~20-22% damage boost ontop of the 60% damage increase from each arcane charge. Couple that with more mana and more regen and you can easily stay at high mana levels through any 5-man heroic (and most mythics) without the need of using barrage to clear charges and go back to a low damage/low mana consumption rotation.

While critical strikes are at the risk of RNG mastery damage boost per arcane charge is not, meaning it's guaranteed damage increases which can be further boosted with a high crit rate. Also mastery mana levels boost the already considerable damage of Mark of Aluneth giving you a stronger AoE mana-free spell.

So to make my case mastery boosts mana regen keeping you at high mana longer, more mana to blow on  high damage full arcane charged spells and increase damage of your artifact spell, and a guaranteed damage increase across your most cast spells. This mastery is powerful for a reason, and is often misused.

Every time I've ran simulations my dps is much much lower than in game dps because the simulations insist on dumping arcane charges way more often than it needs to be because of the high damage of arcane barrage skewing the results while not taking into account the time to get back to full damage.

NotConvinced, I think I like your stat priority better than the guide, it makes more sense to me to still have mastery some where near the top than the bottom. One question tho with the high mastery do you still use the familiar or switch to WoP since im told that with high mastery WoP is better than AF. Also are you still relying on the NT spam or has blizz nerfed it already?

[Tigersharrk 4]

8 hours ago, Blainie said:

Sim comparison can also work then. Simming two different gearsets at the same item level against each other eliminates human error.

But he just said " Every time I've ran simulations my dps is much much lower than in game dps because the simulations insist on dumping arcane charges way more often than it needs to be because of the high damage of arcane barrage skewing the results while not taking into account the time to get back to full damage. " Which means he cant sim it without the other spec pulling ahead do to how the sim wants to dump charges. Unless there is a way to tell it not to then he will have to dedicate a lot more of his time to prove his stats 100% viable; to me thats a lot to ask of a person....unless he is doing a guide to for a site like this. Which I would be intrigued to see honestly (hint...hint).

Edited September 10, 2016 by Tigersharrk

[Valks 2,407]

Just now, Tigersharrk said:

to me thats a lot to ask of a person.

So should we simply just trust him? Unfortunately, that's not quite how these things work. 

Just because an individual feels that the old way is better than the new and disregards the hard work of Furty, I don't think you can say that they must be right.

Should Furty go and reinvestigate all of the work he has put in, simply because an individual disagrees with the majority opinion?

To me, that's a lot to ask of a person.

[Brutalis 166]

Burden of proof is on the one making the claim. If he claims Mastery is the best stat when all evidence so far says otherwise he needs logs that back it up.

[Valks 2,407]

9 hours ago, Brutalis said:

Burden of proof is on the one making the claim. If he claims Mastery is the best stat when all evidence so far says otherwise he needs logs that back it up.

This is my point, thank you.

I'm not dismissing him, I'm not trying to be rude, I'm simply stating that he can't challenge the guide without proof (that we can check) to back it up.

If we followed every claim with no proof, our guide writers would never sleep.

[Guest NotConvinced]

On 9/10/2016 at 3:35 AM, Blainie said:

Sim comparison can also work then. Simming two different gearsets at the same item level against each other eliminates human error.

The problem with every sim I've used it insists I use barrage way too often because the sim sees barrage as high damage output due to Arcane Charges buff and the fact it's an instant cast with no prerequisites. This means I need to either have 3 Arcane Missiles cached opening with an Arcane Explosion/Arcane Blast right after using barrage to clear my Arcane charges, either way I'm now in a low damage rotation until completing the spells to get to 4 Arcane charges. The sim doesn't see it this way, it sees instant cast with high damage putting it on the top of my rotation even though it costs time and dps to re-ramp up charges.

If the sim could let me adjust that I would be able to run a more accurate simulation but seeing as how I just started using software to run sims in the pre-patch I have no idea how to properly weigh abilities.

 

 

On 9/10/2016 at 11:30 AM, Tigersharrk said:

NotConvinced, I think I like your stat priority better than the guide, it makes more sense to me to still have mastery some where near the top than the bottom. One question tho with the high mastery do you still use the familiar or switch to WoP since im told that with high mastery WoP is better than AF. Also are you still relying on the NT spam or has blizz nerfed it already?

I personally wouldn't recommend NT Spam, but that's really a personal call as I haven't tried it out since the pre-launch patch.

I use the familiar currently, though yes WoP is also a viable option because it gives you more AM which helps you conserve mana on single target which in turns helps you to continue procing AM and if you are trying out the NT spam it's pretty much a necessity.

With Mastery and Crit above Versatility I've been going toe to toe with most fire mages I've ran with, I may have the order reversed or maybe I'm just crazy but I could never keep my mana up through boss fights on a lower priority without going to a low damage rotation.

Sorry to answer those backwards.

 

 

On 9/10/2016 at 5:11 PM, Brutalis said:

Burden of proof is on the one making the claim. If he claims Mastery is the best stat when all evidence so far says otherwise he needs logs that back it up.

I 100% agree and I'm about 6 pieces shy of trying to run an 840 comparison but work started up so who knows how long it will still take.

[Zadina 923]

If I am not mistaken, you can tell your simulation exactly what rotation to run. 

[Guest Ionne]

Is it just me or is anyone else hoping something concrete will appear and be able to assure me I can still play arcane and not horribly gimp my group? I've tried fire and I just can't get into it :(