Arcane Mage 7.3

[checkmate 4]

12 hours ago, Guest No thx said:

If fire is soo superior how is it then that I end up on top of damage meters (and dps) with arcane?

start to think that you guys didn't play arcane for quite some time.

its not only this guide. Paladin sucked as well till the community forced you to change it. Idk about the other guides, since I don't play them.

thx for the effort (copy/paste and so) but no thx

Quite disrespectful or not?

Assuming gear (i.e. ring, 4piece boni etc. ) is equal:

If you deal more dps with arcane than other mages with fire, then they might just suck.

Arcane still has a very high burst, but as soon as you dumped all your mana and evocated it`s all gone ... then the other speccs still continue high dps and arcane just sucks ...

[Furty 51]

19 hours ago, Guest No thx said:

If fire is soo superior how is it then that I end up on top of damage meters (and dps) with arcane?

start to think that you guys didn't play arcane for quite some time.

its not only this guide. Paladin sucked as well till the community forced you to change it. Idk about the other guides, since I don't play them.

thx for the effort (copy/paste and so) but no thx

To be honest I can play any class or spec in the game and be on the top of the meter when compared with 99% of the playerbase. Nothing to do with the class balance. Very flawed thought process you have.

[Guest Infra]

On 22/08/2016 at 7:19 PM, Guest No thx said:

If fire is soo superior how is it then that I end up on top of damage meters (and dps) with arcane?

start to think that you guys didn't play arcane for quite some time.

its not only this guide. Paladin sucked as well till the community forced you to change it. Idk about the other guides, since I don't play them.

thx for the effort (copy/paste and so) but no thx

If you're playing with undergeared players or your guild isn't good enough at playing the game, then yes you can top meters with every single class, it depends on how bad those players are.

However at equivalent gear Fire is far more supperior as Arcane in every way, period. This is a fact and numbers you can see on warcraftlogs are a proof.

You can find this kind of informations at other places but since I don't do theorycrafting myself I can't really redirect you anywhere else than warcraftlogs.

I mean I don't know it's common sense.

[Supsup 0]

Quote

 

The stat priority for an Arcane Mage is:

1. Intellect;
2. Mastery;
3. Critical Strike;
4. Versatility;
5. Haste.

 

 

 

Hi everyone,

Actually, the Arcane Loot Specialization give us items with Mastery>Haste priority.

So my question is : (For Arcane Mage) Should we change manually our Loot Specialization to Fire during Legion ?

Edited August 27, 2016 by Supsup

[Furty 51]

8 hours ago, Supsup said:

Hi everyone,

Actually, the Arcane Loot Specialization give us items with Mastery>Haste priority.

So my question is : (For Arcane Mage) Should we change manually our Loot Specialization to Fire during Legion ?

In Legion the Arcane stat priority is Vers>Crit>Haste>Mastery

[Supsup 0]

2 minutes ago, Furty said:

In Legion the Arcane stat priority is Vers>Crit>Haste>Mastery

Ok, can you explain ? Is this simDPS ?

[Guest Wolden]

So exactly what should i max because i dont see how exactly versatility helps

[Furty 51]

11 hours ago, Guest Wolden said:

So exactly what should i max because i dont see how exactly versatility helps

Vers>Crit>Haste>Mastery

[Guest Oli]

Hello Furty,

 

many thanks for your awesome guides.

I am new to mage and wanted to choose a spec which was demed best by the bests players, which it seems you are a part off.

 

I read your old guide regarding Arcane and have selected this as Spec/Artifact. I sadly saw to late that you are leaning more towards fire now.

(Also found out that 98% of mages I see are fire)

Would you change from Arcane to fire?

 

My Arcane artifact are lvl 7 and I am only lvl 104, so I want to make the change now before it gets to high.

 

I am not Mythic material, maybe Normal/Heroic, but I want to play a spec, which in theory could be the best, if I practice enough.

 

Best Regards

Arcane Oli

[Furty 51]

Fire is much better, yes.

[Guest Elenya]

On 7/19/2016 at 4:21 PM, Furty said:

That's been edited out, based off of Artifact stuff (which extends AP a little).

It applies to both, actually, though Fire is stronger in dungeons.

I can safely say this is a prediction, and I'd suggest you alter that description. Everyone's afraid that Arcane is subpar, when its burst equals Fire and its AOE is far beyond it.

 

Optimal talent setup at 110, single target, is:

-Familiar

-Shimmer

-Rune of Power

-Supernova

-Ice Floes

-Nether Tempest

-Quickening

 

It's nowhere near weak in single target, is demonstrably superior to both Fire and Frost in AoE and kiting/AOE slows/roots, and, if played properly, is much more valuable. 

[Guest Oli]

Many thanks for your fast reply. 

Take care and gl in Legion.

 

Best regards

Fire Oli :-)

[Guest Elenya]

9 hours ago, Furty said:

Fire is much better, yes.

I wouldn't say it's "much" better. 3-6% better in ST and horrifically lower in terms of AoE, Kiting and CC isn't superior by any extent of the word.

 

You need to modify your summarization, because it's wrong. Arcane is not weak. Fire is not overwhelmingly strong. Optimal talents in your guide are wrong.

[Guest Zlatan]

I need to agree with Elenya, somehow stacking your Arcane Charges correctly and timing them with Arcane Barrage will proc missles really neat.

I must say, it isn't as "weak" as we think of it. Especially in AOE, I'm spamming Arcane Explosion until 4 charges (since it raises so high in mana cost) and then finishing with Arcane Barrage, then just rinse and repeat. It's dealing like 70k damage to every opponent on the third charge.

I'd like to have some tips on what spec to pick now before reaching level 110.

[Furty 51]

17 hours ago, Guest Elenya said:

I wouldn't say it's "much" better. 3-6% better in ST and horrifically lower in terms of AoE, Kiting and CC isn't superior by any extent of the word.

 

You need to modify your summarization, because it's wrong. Arcane is not weak. Fire is not overwhelmingly strong. Optimal talents in your guide are wrong.

It really is "much" better, particularly in raids. It pushes checks much better, it has far superior priority damage, and cleaves more efficiently (e.g. loses very little single target). Talent build is correct.

[Guest Elenya]

On 9/1/2016 at 3:40 PM, Furty said:

 

"Much" being relative? Fire has mediocre cleave and has to give up pushing "checks" to do any sort of decent AoE. Ignite damage on secondary targets is abysmal at best.

 

Fire isn't "particularly" better in raids by any extent of the imagination. It beats Arcane in ST by about 5% (Which, believe it or not, your talent setup IS wrong in regards to, go look at Altered Time's forums and you'll see which build is highest, it's not what you have posted) and Arcane beats it in AoE. "Significantly."

If you'd stated that being a complex spec, Arcane is better suited to those who like a challenge, that'd make sense.

 

As it stands, Fire is NOT overwhelmingly superior or even majorly superior. Individual mileage may vary, but that's no reason to discredit and mislabel a spec that is extremely viable in the current tier, at least until we see changes in the next few weeks.

[Furty 51]

7 hours ago, Guest Elenya said:

"Much" being relative? Fire has mediocre cleave and has to give up pushing "checks" to do any sort of decent AoE. Ignite damage on secondary targets is abysmal at best.

 

Fire isn't "particularly" better in raids by any extent of the imagination. It beats Arcane in ST by about 5% (Which, believe it or not, your talent setup IS wrong in regards to, go look at Altered Time's forums and you'll see which build is highest, it's not what you have posted) and Arcane beats it in AoE. "Significantly."

If you'd stated that being a complex spec, Arcane is better suited to those who like a challenge, that'd make sense.

 

As it stands, Fire is NOT overwhelmingly superior or even majorly superior. Individual mileage may vary, but that's no reason to discredit and mislabel a spec that is extremely viable in the current tier, at least until we see changes in the next few weeks.

I guess we'll wait and see all the hordes of Mages going Arcane this tier then. Until that time fluffing up your favorite spec is essentially wishful thinking. If you want to discuss it more or provide more substantial discussion that goes beyond "I like Arcane, it's good, you're wrong!!11!", then I suggest you take it to the forums instead and include something that substantiates your conclusion.

[Tigersharrk 4]

Ok i'm soooo confused and looks like I have geared wrong while lvling (luckily caught this before I started doing dungeons).

So the stat priority is:

Int>SP>Versa>Crit>Haste>Mastery (as I have seen here and Altered Time) and not Int>Sp>Mast>Haste>Crit>Versa anymore??

AMR has it as Int>SP>Crit>Versa>Mast>Haste

Whats the correct stats?

Also why is Versa all the sudden better than Mastery (and everything else for that matter) and is haste back of the bus cause of Quickening?

Why is Erosion not good at all? (Just wondering you didn't really give a reason in the guide?)

Finally for AoE do you switch SN to Res and NT for Ero, as shown on AT?

Edited September 4, 2016 by Tigersharrk

[Brutalis 165]

Check the simulationcraft results. We clearly see that Fire does about 13k more dps than arcane, and given Arcane's complexity and how easy it is to mess up the gap can become much bigger. However I find Arcane the most fun to play and since I'm not a top 500 mythic raider my guild doesn't really mind if I'm not totally optimal.

Now, something I keep hearing about is this Nether Tempest + Quickening spam playstyle. The explainations I've seen have been vague but people swear it's the most optimal conserve phase now. Do you know anything about it? Could you explain/touch on it? I mean, the Arcane Guide on Alter Time claims it can give a whopping 100k boost in DPS and it seems the sims back up the claim.

Many thanks.

Edited September 5, 2016 by Brutalis

[Guest NotConvinced]

Mastery the lowest priority for Arcane? I've used stat priority as stated by this guide and unless I was sticking to an extremely low damage rotation I was going OOM after using evocation before any boss was downed.

After changing to a mastery priority I can full on dps without any need for barrage clearing for the majority of bosses. This means I'm gaining the extra damage amount from staying at 4 arcane charges and by staying at full 4 for the entire fight, with maybe a need for evocation on harder boss fights.

The downside is that I have down time after some pulls so tanks that blitz I'm going to lose dps naturally, but my single target on bosses? No problem.

Since this guide pulls so hard for Fire spec though I tested 10 runs as fire with stat priority stated as Icy Veins wants it vs 10 runs as Arcane how I have it and I'm consistently pulling better AoE and ST by 8-10%.

Seeing as how all of your streams since legion has had zero Arcane mage play (or any mage in general) I feel like this is a fire mage pushing for reasons not to be arcane with poor stat priority and bad information about how to use arcane charges.

[Tigersharrk 4]

22 hours ago, Guest NotConvinced said:

Mastery the lowest priority for Arcane? I've used stat priority as stated by this guide and unless I was sticking to an extremely low damage rotation I was going OOM after using evocation before any boss was downed.

After changing to a mastery priority I can full on dps without any need for barrage clearing for the majority of bosses. This means I'm gaining the extra damage amount from staying at 4 arcane charges and by staying at full 4 for the entire fight, with maybe a need for evocation on harder boss fights.

The downside is that I have down time after some pulls so tanks that blitz I'm going to lose dps naturally, but my single target on bosses? No problem.

Since this guide pulls so hard for Fire spec though I tested 10 runs as fire with stat priority stated as Icy Veins wants it vs 10 runs as Arcane how I have it and I'm consistently pulling better AoE and ST by 8-10%.

Seeing as how all of your streams since legion has had zero Arcane mage play (or any mage in general) I feel like this is a fire mage pushing for reasons not to be arcane with poor stat priority and bad information about how to use arcane charges.

That's how I'am feeling is that everything is based on this wonky notion that Versa is better than Mastery but Altered Time does have the same stat priority there as well that isn't done by Furty so maybe he just pull it form there since he's more focused on fire. I would like to see a guide done by a main Arcane but after walk my class order halls and seeing it flooded with fire mages that is unlikely.

 

So should I just keep stacking Mastery and Haste or what do you think the priority should be? Cause this is getting confusing! (Especially when no one answers my questions,sigh).

[Furty 51]

4 hours ago, Tigersharrk said:

That's how I'am feeling is that everything is based on this wonky notion that Versa is better than Mastery but Altered Time does have the same stat priority there as well that isn't done by Furty so maybe he just pull it form there since he's more focused on fire. I would like to see a guide done by a main Arcane but after walk my class order halls and seeing it flooded with fire mages that is unlikely.

 

So should I just keep stacking Mastery and Haste or what do you think the priority should be? Cause this is getting confusing! (Especially when no one answers my questions,sigh).

I'm not really "focused" on any one spec in particular, just on what is correct. Mastery isn't that strong because the ratio of extra 4 charge blasts gained from regen versus just doing more damage all the time is too low for it to be an effectual stat. Conceptually the stat should be good but it is not balanced correctly, unsure of what exactly is confusing or wonky about that.

[Tigersharrk 4]

16 hours ago, Furty said:

I'm not really "focused" on any one spec in particular, just on what is correct. Mastery isn't that strong because the ratio of extra 4 charge blasts gained from regen versus just doing more damage all the time is too low for it to be an effectual stat. Conceptually the stat should be good but it is not balanced correctly, unsure of what exactly is confusing or wonky about that.

Whats confusing is that AMR has it Int>Crit>Versa>Mastery>Haste, You and AT have it Int>Versa>Crit>Haste>Mastery and "not convinced" is right with no mastery you would go OOM very quickly as well as without haste your AB takes forever to cast. Unless you are taking into consideration the NT spam (which i'm still having a problem comprehending as NT isn't really giving AM that much even when spammed). Which is also why im trying to get guys like "Not Convinced", "No Thx" and "Elenya" to elborate and contribute their stats and such instead of just criticizing you. I personally feel the stats should be Int>Versa>Mastery> Haste>=Crit or Int>Mastery>Versa>Haste>=Crit. I digress im not a "simmer" I just want to raid and have fun while getting some cool gear and i go here to get me on the right path to raiding.

[Brutalis 165]

15 hours ago, Tigersharrk said:

Unless you are taking into consideration the NT spam (which i'm still having a problem comprehending as NT isn't really giving AM that much even when spammed).

Exactly this. How does this work? I'm trying it on a dummy and it just isn't giving that 100k DPS increase people claim.

[Tigersharrk 4]

38 minutes ago, Brutalis said:

Exactly this. How does this work? I'm trying it on a dummy and it just isn't giving that 100k DPS increase people claim.

Straight from AT:

Arcane NT-Spam Playstyle:
NT-Spam playstyle centers around abuse of NT, and Quickening. The goal is to maintain max Quickening stacks through the use of NT spam to proc AM casts, AM casts, and AE.

The traditional "conserve" rotation is replaced by a rotation that consists of spamming NT. AB is used to build Arcane Charges, or to burn mana if you are high (>70ish%). At 4xAC, you want to be using AB so long as your mana is high, else spamming NT. Once Quickening is about to fall off, you prioritize using AM to refresh it. If Quickening if about to fall of and you have no AM, you use AE to refresh and continue spamming NT. Things like Super Nova / Mark of Aluneth are used close to on Cooldown. If you are running ROP, RoP is sync'd to MoA uses, Burn phases, and instances of
being capped on RoP charges.

The "burn" phase is initiated when you have Evocation nearly off CD, and Arcane Power available. Here you play a fairly standard burn rotation - using AP and RoP together, spamming AB and AMing when you have it. NT is now a mana throttle - should your mana pool fall too low without Evocation CD up yet, you revert to NT spam to gain AM charges and regen mana. AE serves the same purpose as in Conserve.

The primary goal should always be keeping Quickening stacks up. If at any point you are not able to maintain max stacks (which takes a few minutes to build up) this playstyle is sub-optimal. For that reason, one should use caution in applying it to in-game scenarios. This requires you to be in melee. If mechanics force you out, unless you are smart with AM banking, Quickening will fall. If there are large movement times or phase transitions, this will not be playable.

I'm still not seeing the numbers but maybe cause im not using AB as much as spamming NT and AE waiting for AM's.