Outlaw Rogue 7.3

[Guest weapon speed]

That is totally wrong, just try and test it, skills are based on physical power or weapon dps and not weapon damage..

 

2 items with the same item level will do the same, they do not use weapon damage for outlaw EXCEPT for killing spree ( a talent not suggested to take ) or the mastery *main gauche* that does offhand weapon damage..

So since we arent suppose to take killing spree, wouldnt I want a fast main hand to proc a lot of offhands..

 

[Furty 51]

2 hours ago, Guest weapon speed said:

That is totally wrong, just try and test it, skills are based on physical power or weapon dps and not weapon damage..

 

2 items with the same item level will do the same, they do not use weapon damage for outlaw EXCEPT for killing spree ( a talent not suggested to take ) or the mastery *main gauche* that does offhand weapon damage..

So since we arent suppose to take killing spree, wouldnt I want a fast main hand to proc a lot of offhands..

 

 

[Guest Bored]

18 hours ago, Guest weapon speed said:

 

16 hours ago, Furty said:

Im getting a bit bored of replying here..

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Normalization

ALMOST all skills based on "weapon" damage are normalized, so dagger or 2h doesnt change anything, it's only based on DPS.

The only skills that arent based on normalized weapon damage  are indicated like killing spree wich specifically say "attack with offhand weapon" .. but W/E.. I'm done arguing here, everyone is replying without trying to understand my question

[Carrn 284]

6 hours ago, Guest Bored said:

Im getting a bit bored of replying here..

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Normalization

ALMOST all skills based on "weapon" damage are normalized, so dagger or 2h doesnt change anything, it's only based on DPS.

The only skills that arent based on normalized weapon damage  are indicated like killing spree wich specifically say "attack with offhand weapon" .. but W/E.. I'm done arguing here, everyone is replying without trying to understand my question

I'm honestly not really sure how to respond to this... I think there are a number of things that you aren't clear about, the differences between Weapon Damage, Weapon DPS, and Attack Power included.

Some skills, such as Run Through, base their damage off your Attack Power. This means that if you change weapons, assuming the weapons are the same item level, Run Through's damage will not change since both of the weapons will give the same amount of Agility and increase to your AP.

Other skills, such as Saber Slash, base their damage on a combination of different things, which includes Weapon Damage. What this means is when you swap to a slower weapon of the same item level, such as moving from a dagger to a sword, you will see an increase in the damage of this skill.

Now, there are things that are normalized for Outlaw Rogues as well. Things such as Combat Potency, a passive that has a chance to refund energy on your successful offhand white hits. This is normalized between slow and fast weapons, so faster offhands do not provide infinite energy regeneration

[Guest Chriz]

What's the difference now that Slice and Dice is 100% speed increase on attacks?  Is Roll the Bones still tops?

[Carrn 284]

40 minutes ago, Guest Chriz said:

What's the difference now that Slice and Dice is 100% speed increase on attacks?  Is Roll the Bones still tops?

Yes, because it has higher potential. You can roll 2 buffs at the same time which will vastly outweigh the sole AS buff from SnD

[Rasputan 3]

Hi, first time writing here, but Carrn knows me, so take that for what it's worth. I'm updating my weakauras, and I'm at the roll the bones portion. Having rolled quite a bit on a target dummy, I find I'm spending a lot of time trying to get True Bearing, and it feels like a loss of dps. I know if I have 2-3 buffs that's acceptable, even if I don't have a True Bearing buff. So, in terms of best for the amount, what would be the preferential buffs over the lesser? For a single buff, would this be the order of preference?

1. True Bearing
2. Broadsides
3. Shark Infested Waters
4. Grand Melee
5. Buried Treasure
6. Jolly Roger

For double buffs, you have Broadsides and Shark Infested Waters for burst, what would the other combinations be good for?

For triple buffs, I'm sure you'll be doing well with whatever you have, and all six? Well just stabby stab stab.

I guess what I'm asking, since I normally main a tank, what are the benefits for the buffs, and how best do I use them? I want to know which is best for sustained, burst, aoe, so I can make a weak aura that'll say ("Hey dummy, you got a good roll for aoe damage" and I can look and say, "Well poop, I'm just fighting one target, I better re-roll"). I know I'm asking for a lot, but rogues have been one of those classes that I just haven't been able to get behind since starting. 

 

Anyway, thanks, Rasp.

[Carrn 284]

8 hours ago, Rasputan said:

Hi, first time writing here, but Carrn knows me, so take that for what it's worth. I'm updating my weakauras, and I'm at the roll the bones portion. Having rolled quite a bit on a target dummy, I find I'm spending a lot of time trying to get True Bearing, and it feels like a loss of dps. I know if I have 2-3 buffs that's acceptable, even if I don't have a True Bearing buff. So, in terms of best for the amount, what would be the preferential buffs over the lesser? For a single buff, would this be the order of preference?

1. True Bearing
2. Broadsides
3. Shark Infested Waters
4. Grand Melee
5. Buried Treasure
6. Jolly Roger

For double buffs, you have Broadsides and Shark Infested Waters for burst, what would the other combinations be good for?

For triple buffs, I'm sure you'll be doing well with whatever you have, and all six? Well just stabby stab stab.

I guess what I'm asking, since I normally main a tank, what are the benefits for the buffs, and how best do I use them? I want to know which is best for sustained, burst, aoe, so I can make a weak aura that'll say ("Hey dummy, you got a good roll for aoe damage" and I can look and say, "Well poop, I'm just fighting one target, I better re-roll"). I know I'm asking for a lot, but rogues have been one of those classes that I just haven't been able to get behind since starting. 

 

Anyway, thanks, Rasp.

Should have just asked me, if you were going to post here Rasp :P

I haven't seen Legion Sims yet, but from what I understand after the nerfs / buffs currently it's best to look for any 2 buffs; it doesn't matter which ones. Fishing for SiW OR any 2 buffs is very close, pulling ~1k less dps

The only real variation to that that I can think of would be not re-rolling TB if  you're running MfD and there's a bunch of adds out and AR is on cooldown, since you could quickly chop off a huge portion of the cooldown.

Certainly come Legion TB's value will be significantly less on average, since we'll have a lot less Haste to build for finishers, but it might be worth rolling for if AR and / or Dreadblades are coming off cooldown soon.

[Rasputan 3]

Thanks Carrn, after speaking to you in game, I think I have everything set up the way I need it. For those wondering;

Single buff, reroll if anything but Shark Infested Waters

If True Bearing, reroll if Adrenaline Rush is on cooldown, and greater than 10 seconds remain.

For double buffs, if Grand Melee comes up, reroll, but at a point where there is a low point in dps, or you know you're going to have to move soon, otherwise it's ok to just keep it.

For triple and six buffs, keep them no matter what they are.

The way Outlaw Rogue is designed, there's no real predictable burst window, and you shouldn't reroll to find the right set of buffs for the situation you're in.

Yes, I was working on some weakauras for this, I have a lot of characters, so I have a few that are rolled into one, with additional ones applying depending upon the class/spec. What this means is; I don't have a single weakaura for any particular spec. I have uploaded them, and have a screenshot, so if you want to pick stuff out and incorporate it into your own, or just use it as is, that's fine.

The shitty image I have shows the 4 addons I have active for Outlaw. Top left is a simple Roll the Bones aura. It expands outwards, and just has the icons, with a duration displayed on each one. The next three are rather large files, despite their apparent size. Below it is Outlaw Rogue, which has most defensive cds, Adrenaline Rush, and Blade Flurry. The one below that is Outlaw Rogue Rotation. To use this, the one on the far left has the higher priority, with the ones to the right of it either lower priority, or just showing as available for when you have a burst window appearing. The bottom one is called Pop Up. I have that showing on all of my characters, and it adapts to whatever class/spec you have. It shows Target Name and Health, player energy resource, multiple ones if applies, and target cast. It also has a Visible GCD bar, and a Cast Bar, and it only appears when in combat.

The top right shows all of them together as in use. Apologies if there's a better format to doing all this stuff.

Roll the Bones

Outlaw Rogue

Outlaw Rogue Rotation

Pop Up

[TBlakely 0]

What if you have a dagger that is several ilvs higher than your second slow weapon, would it be a better choice for all situations not just cleaving?

[Carrn 284]

2 hours ago, TBlakely said:

What if you have a dagger that is several ilvs higher than your second slow weapon, would it be a better choice for all situations not just cleaving?

Depends how high "several" is, but I would hazard a guess that it probably doesn't matter. Overall you'd be gaining more white damage with the dagger but losing Mastery damage with the sword. 

However, if the dagger is high enough level to have more damage (not DPS) than your other sword, go with the dagger.

[Guest Who]

For multiple-target situations, when we use Blade Flurry, we swap to a Fast Main-hand / Slow Off-hand configuration.

How will this work with the Artifact weapons? 

The Dreadblades, Fate + Fortune (Slow Main Hand Sword + Slow Off Hand Sword) are both 2.60 speed.  

Will we still swap weapons for Blade Flurry?

[Lockybalboa 618]

There will be nothing to swap too. There are literally no weapons in Legion other than the artifact ones.

[Furty 51]

12 hours ago, Guest Who said:

For multiple-target situations, when we use Blade Flurry, we swap to a Fast Main-hand / Slow Off-hand configuration.

How will this work with the Artifact weapons? 

The Dreadblades, Fate + Fortune (Slow Main Hand Sword + Slow Off Hand Sword) are both 2.60 speed.  

Will we still swap weapons for Blade Flurry?

Also right now Slow/Slow is better, it's just old info from the original guide that's completely overhauled for Legion. As Locky said there's nothing to swap to so it's a non issue.

[VaraTreledees 138]

On 8/15/2016 at 7:49 AM, Carrn said:

Your skills base their damage off your weapon damage, so the higher damage weapon you have the better off you will be.

They actually do not.  It is based off your weapon DPS not damage.  Instant attacks are normalized, meaning all daggers are treated as having a 1.7 swing timer and all 1 handed non daggers are treated as 2.4 I believe.  Meaning regardless of the actual damage of the weapon, 2 1 handed non dagger weapons with identical dps deal identical damage with things like saber slash even if one has a 1.5 attack speed and the other has a 2.5 attack speed (This is of course also assuming they have identical amounts of agility and secondary stats).

[Guest Dave]

I am just wondering why you recommend using an intelligence boost gem? 

[Furty 51]

6 minutes ago, Guest Dave said:

I am just wondering why you recommend using an intelligence boost gem? 

I'm .... not sure actually. In the raw file it is an agility gem. Maybe a site bug, I'll look into it.

[Guest Tolkien]

Hello, just wondering if you can provide any insight as to why stat weights like crit and haste flipped so much in value from pre-patch to legion. Thanks for the guide!

[Guest Answermancer]

Good to see this guide has been updated with the post-hotfix data, but there's still some references to True Bearing being the best that will probably confuse new readers.

On the Spell Summary page it says:
Roll the Bones is a finishing move that generates a random buff(s), the most important of which is True Bearing, because it allows you to reduce the cooldown of Adrenaline Rush. This is explained in great detail in the rotation section of the guide.

Since this is the first real mention of RtB I think it will confuse people.

Also under talents it says that SnD is a 15% DPS loss where I think last I heard it was around 4% now, but that's probably less important, either way it's a DPS loss.

[Furty 51]

On 8/29/2016 at 1:13 PM, Guest Tolkien said:

Hello, just wondering if you can provide any insight as to why stat weights like crit and haste flipped so much in value from pre-patch to legion. Thanks for the guide!

Artifact/RtB changes mostly.

On 8/29/2016 at 6:03 PM, Guest Answermancer said:

Good to see this guide has been updated with the post-hotfix data, but there's still some references to True Bearing being the best that will probably confuse new readers.

On the Spell Summary page it says:
Roll the Bones is a finishing move that generates a random buff(s), the most important of which is True Bearing, because it allows you to reduce the cooldown of Adrenaline Rush. This is explained in great detail in the rotation section of the guide.

Since this is the first real mention of RtB I think it will confuse people.

Also under talents it says that SnD is a 15% DPS loss where I think last I heard it was around 4% now, but that's probably less important, either way it's a DPS loss.

Sure, I'll update this when I get some time. Thanks for the heads up.

[PJTMayhem 0]

Has anyone noticed Tricks of the Trade not working at all? Like the icon not even being available when a party member is targeted. I was using the /cast [@focus] way to cast pre-Legion and it was working. Now the spell book and macro'd abilities are not working. Unless I'm completely missing something.

[Guest Hello]

On 9/2/2016 at 11:19 PM, PJTMayhem said:

Has anyone noticed Tricks of the Trade not working at all? Like the icon not even being available when a party member is targeted. I was using the /cast [@focus] way to cast pre-Legion and it was working. Now the spell book and macro'd abilities are not working. Unless I'm completely missing something.

Do you have a resist mind control buff on your character?

[ddkil 3]

Overall very nice guide but to be honest I was surprised to see Stat priority section and haste losing that much efficiency since WoD where everyone who play combat were going to achieve most haste possible.

Is haste really that bad right now? Actually I was going through mythics this week (at that time I had two 830 haste/mastery rings) and It seemed that after I acquired two 840 rings but with versatility/mastery  I started to starve on energy so bad therefore It seemed like dps loss to me...thats why I doubt that haste is least prioritized... ( and btw I use ghostly strike and deeper stategem)

Edited September 10, 2016 by ddkil

[Valks 2,373]

59 minutes ago, ddkil said:

Overall very nice guide but to be honest I was surprised to see Stat priority section and haste losing that much efficiency since WoD where everyone who play combat were going to achieve most haste possible.

Is haste really that bad right now? Actually I was going through mythics this week (at that time I had two 830 haste/mastery rings) and It seemed that after I acquired two 840 rings but with versatility/mastery  I started to starve on energy so bad therefore It seemed like dps loss to me...thats why I doubt that haste is least prioritized... ( and btw I use ghostly strike and deeper stategem)

Did you use any sort of addon to record DPS numbers? I understand that you might feel like you're doing less DPS due to lower Haste and less buttons to spam, but did you actually see a DPS drop? You say that it "seemed like a DPS loss". If you use SimCraft to compare different sets of gear, you can clearly see which stats perform best.

It can take a bit of getting used to, since you would be able to constantly spam abilities as Combat, but things have changed when the spec changed.

[Carrn 284]

1 hour ago, ddkil said:

Overall very nice guide but to be honest I was surprised to see Stat priority section and haste losing that much efficiency since WoD where everyone who play combat were going to achieve most haste possible.

Is haste really that bad right now? Actually I was going through mythics this week (at that time I had two 830 haste/mastery rings) and It seemed that after I acquired two 840 rings but with versatility/mastery  I started to starve on energy so bad therefore It seemed like dps loss to me...thats why I doubt that haste is least prioritized... ( and btw I use ghostly strike and deeper stategem)

Current generic Sims for 840 item level have stat weights for Outlaw as:

• Agi: 1
• Vers: 0.61
• Haste: 0.56
• Crit: 0.55
• Mastery: 0.49

Basically what that shows is that Vers is best but not by much, Haste and Crit are effectively the same, and Mastery is only slightly behind.

These stats will change based on how much gear you have. The same generic Sims for 880 item level (Mythic raid with 1 legendary) have the following stat weights:

• Agi: 1
• Vers: 0.79
• Crit: 0.68
• Mastery: 0.54
• Haste: 0.49

The stat priority given in the guide shows the Mythic level weights (albeit with incorrect numbers for Vers and Crit).

For the time being, you should be prioritizing your stats according to the 840 item level that you're hovering around, and not what is shown in the guide.