Damien

Outlaw Rogue 7.3

324 posts in this topic

This thread is for comments about our Outlaw Rogue guide for Legion.

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1 hour ago, Fofilolipop said:

One thing to note, is that Acrobatic Strikes increases the range of Blade Flurry and should not be completely ignored.

That's a good point, though I think the practical usages are still pretty slim. I'll make a notation for clarity though!

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Saber Slash Icon Saber Slash is your main filler and Combo Point generator. It deals moderate damage and generates 1 Combo Point each time it strikes. It has a 45% chance to strike an additional time, which also procs Opportunity Icon Opportunity.

In-game it reads as this:

Quote

Saber Slash has a 35% chance to strike an additional time, making your next Pistol Shot free.

 

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21 minutes ago, Guest outlaw said:

In-game it reads as this:

 

Oops, I must have been using Swordmaster by accident when I wrote that.

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5 hours ago, Guest Friizz said:

Where does Between the Eyes find it's place in rotation?

Only used if you need to stun something.

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16 minutes ago, pday said:

Your guide for Outlaw Rogue does not resemble the one provided by Wowhead.

It looks like Wowhead's is talking about Legion, whereas we are talking about the 7.0 prepatch here

They also seem to do more of a breakdown and an explanation of what each ability does, rather than give a set rotation like we do

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Acrobatic Strikes imo is huge for Outlaw rogues aoe.  An extra 3 yards of cleave means you can cleave onto infernals on Manny without being in their aoe range and can hit almost every imp.  With most guilds not having the cohesion and team work as higher end guilds to make sure imps are all dropped with in an 8 yard radius means you lose out on a quarter of the imps unless you have a mass grip and even then thats every other pac.  The aoe potential, the main chunk of outlaw's job, lost by nerfing your aoe by 3 yards in all directions i don't think is outweighed by the mobility gained by the two other choices.  The 30 second leap while good in a clutch avoidance of death no matter how cool it is doesn't outweigh it.  Not to mention most fights other than maybe Hans and Franz won't have you dashing across screen more than every minute in which sprint can be used so the extra 15% doesn't seem to be worth it either.  Even single target it gives you that extra 3 yards of room to move out of something and not lose dps on the boss.  

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5 hours ago, Muguin said:

Acrobatic Strikes imo is huge for Outlaw rogues aoe.  An extra 3 yards of cleave means you can cleave onto infernals on Manny without being in their aoe range and can hit almost every imp.  With most guilds not having the cohesion and team work as higher end guilds to make sure imps are all dropped with in an 8 yard radius means you lose out on a quarter of the imps unless you have a mass grip and even then thats every other pac.  The aoe potential, the main chunk of outlaw's job, lost by nerfing your aoe by 3 yards in all directions i don't think is outweighed by the mobility gained by the two other choices.  The 30 second leap while good in a clutch avoidance of death no matter how cool it is doesn't outweigh it.  Not to mention most fights other than maybe Hans and Franz won't have you dashing across screen more than every minute in which sprint can be used so the extra 15% doesn't seem to be worth it either.  Even single target it gives you that extra 3 yards of room to move out of something and not lose dps on the boss.  

Ultimately, on a tier of  talents like this, the choices are going to be very much based on personal preference.

While you are correct in saying that the extra cleave range is useful, Grappling Hook is at least as useful for instant travel to hit a priority add, avoid mechanics, or even just  to look cool as hell.

 

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13 hours ago, Muguin said:

Acrobatic Strikes imo is huge for Outlaw rogues aoe.  An extra 3 yards of cleave means you can cleave onto infernals on Manny without being in their aoe range and can hit almost every imp.  With most guilds not having the cohesion and team work as higher end guilds to make sure imps are all dropped with in an 8 yard radius means you lose out on a quarter of the imps unless you have a mass grip and even then thats every other pac.  The aoe potential, the main chunk of outlaw's job, lost by nerfing your aoe by 3 yards in all directions i don't think is outweighed by the mobility gained by the two other choices.  The 30 second leap while good in a clutch avoidance of death no matter how cool it is doesn't outweigh it.  Not to mention most fights other than maybe Hans and Franz won't have you dashing across screen more than every minute in which sprint can be used so the extra 15% doesn't seem to be worth it either.  Even single target it gives you that extra 3 yards of room to move out of something and not lose dps on the boss.  

If you feel your group isn't coordinated enough to ensure the targets are correctly stacked you can derive benefit from this talent. Ultimately though this tier is basically the old "Shadowstep vs. Burst of Speed" question, where most players felt that the playmaking, lifesaving, and general flexibility of step was much more useful. The same arguments apply to Grappling Hook, especially for progression. If your group isn't coordinated enough to properly stack adds on encounters, no one is forcing you to use Grappling Hook. That said, Acrobatic Strikes is most definitely an inferior talent and really only to be used if you absolutely need that extra range to compensate for a lack of stacking - certainly not something I'd recommend as a default choice.

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Wouldn't it be more appropriate to suggest using Adrenaline Rush with, say, two or more of the RtB buffs instead of specifically True Bearing?  I know the combination is good, but I just tried this on a dummy and rolled twelve times in a row before I got it and obviously that's not acceptable in a raid setting which people are coming here for advice on.

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2 hours ago, Guest Phil said:

Wouldn't it be more appropriate to suggest using Adrenaline Rush with, say, two or more of the RtB buffs instead of specifically True Bearing?  I know the combination is good, but I just tried this on a dummy and rolled twelve times in a row before I got it and obviously that's not acceptable in a raid setting which people are coming here for advice on.

The cumulative probability of you not rolling True Bearing after 12 attempts is ~3.2%. You also have plenty of time in advance of Adrenaline Rush to prepare a True Bearing proc, and you only need to cover a 15-second window. Overall you're presenting a fairly unrealistic scenario, but were you to find yourself with 2-3 buffs and Adrenaline Rush off cooldown you should indeed immediately use your cooldown and try and maximize your damage inside of Adrenaline Rush. That said, it should also be known that for said situation to occur you would have made an error leading up to your Adrenaline Rush coming off cooldown which could have been avoided.

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So my "error" was not rerolling it six times beforehand so I could... only need to reroll another six times afterwards?  :P 

Don't talk to be about cumulative probability in this game where i have spent 1000+ attempts trying to get the Raven Lord, a "five percent" drop from Anzu.  A cumulative probability that has 23 zeroes after the decimal place before you get to a number.  Eventually I just bought it from the BMAH.  You WILL get a bad run of rolls on progression, repeatedly, I guarantee it.

Also, while it's true that you only need a 1 CP RtB to "cover" the duration of AR, isn't the whole point of this fishing strategy to get maximum reduction on AR cooldown, which would require the full 55 seconds of Pandemic Deeper Strategy True Bearing?  If I had to pick 1CP buffs from Roll the Bones to maximize the effectiveness of AR during its actual uptime it would be probably a combination of Broadsides and Jolly Roger, and sharks would just be cake.  Then I'd hope to get a full duration True Bearing while it was on cooldown.

I also feel like overwriting a Buried Treasure in the now to get more AR in the future is a mistake, and would probably only do that if I could benefit from double trinket buffs under AR by doing so, so that's another edge case to work out.  Actually I think the whole concept is backwards.  you should make sure AR is on cooldown when you have True Bearing, not the other way around.

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6 minutes ago, Guest Phil said:

So my "error" was not rerolling it six times beforehand so I could... only need to reroll another six times afterwards?  :P 

Don't talk to be about cumulative probability in this game where i have spent 1000+ attempts trying to get the Raven Lord, a "five percent" drop from Anzu.  A cumulative probability that has 23 zeroes after the decimal place before you get to a number.  Eventually I just bought it from the BMAH.  You WILL get a bad run of rolls on progression, repeatedly, I guarantee it.

Also, while it's true that you only need a 1 CP RtB to "cover" the duration of AR, isn't the whole point of this fishing strategy to get maximum reduction on AR cooldown, which would require the full 55 seconds of Pandemic Deeper Strategy True Bearing?  If I had to pick 1CP buffs from Roll the Bones to maximize the effectiveness of AR during its actual uptime it would be probably a combination of Broadsides and Jolly Roger, and sharks would just be cake.  Then I'd hope to get a full duration True Bearing while it was on cooldown.

I also feel like overwriting a Buried Treasure in the now to get more AR in the future is a mistake, and would probably only do that if I could benefit from double trinket buffs under AR by doing so, so that's another edge case to work out.  Actually I think the whole concept is backwards.  you should make sure AR is on cooldown when you have True Bearing, not the other way around.

Adrenaline Rush goes on cooldown the moment you use it, and as you get so many finishers off during that period it is the highest return on the True Bearing buff. As someone that has more progression experience than possibly anyone barring a literal handful, I can definitely agree that occasionally bad RNG can get you down. That doesn't mean you just completely forgo a high percentage chance at the most optimal style of play. If you go into an Adrenaline Rush with a 55-second True Bearing you actually stand a pretty good chance of having an Adrenaline Rush again by the time that buff expires.

In any case, your input is appreciated, and if you want to generate some discussion or compare numbers I recommend heading over to the forums!

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I was wondering whether or not it's worth it to cast Saber Slash when im at 5 combo points (using Deeper Strategem) because I have a fear that I might waste the extra combo point that Saber Slash will generate if it procs. And if i'm in the same situation with broadsides, what should I do?

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7 hours ago, leapingshadow said:

I was wondering whether or not it's worth it to cast Saber Slash when im at 5 combo points (using Deeper Strategem) because I have a fear that I might waste the extra combo point that Saber Slash will generate if it procs. And if i'm in the same situation with broadsides, what should I do?

There is current some debate for all Rogue specs whether "always 6" or "5-6" is the ideal method of using finishers. What is known for certain is that the margin between these arguments is so extraordinarily small that it doesn't really matter what you do. Personally I usually do "5-6" when I have a True Bearing buff active because the CDR per Combo Point value is high enough that I feel bad wasting any CP. That said, as noted earlier, the difference in a sim is essentially negligible regardless of current buffs.

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Actually..from what I've found out, if you Roll the Bones and get Shark Infested Waters(The 40% crit buff), Between the Eyes can be a quick burst damage attack. It's crits can hit harder than your Run Through when it crits.

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1 hour ago, Guest Between the Eyes said:

Actually..from what I've found out, if you Roll the Bones and get Shark Infested Waters(The 40% crit buff), Between the Eyes can be a quick burst damage attack. It's crits can hit harder than your Run Through when it crits.

Firstly, if you *don't* crit your finisher will do 4x less damage, which is a big risk for damage consistency. Generally this trade off isn't worth it, especially when Critical Strike is your least valued stat (so even with SIW your criticals aren't even near guaranteed).

Secondly, for raiding rogues in HFC you have to account for BHTV, which increased your Run Through damage by enough that it absolutely decimates BTE, whether you crit or not.

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Great guide, very enlightening, exactly what I needed.

 

A nitpick: in "Spell Summary", there's an outdated line:

You will start every fight from Stealth Icon Stealth as your Tier 2 talent provides a damage benefit to using your abilities while Stealth Icon Stealth is active.

 

Should also probably mention that in the guide:

7 hours ago, Furty said:

There is current some debate for all Rogue specs whether "always 6" or "5-6" is the ideal method of using finishers. What is known for certain is that the margin between these arguments is so extraordinarily small that it doesn't really matter what you do. Personally I usually do "5-6" when I have a True Bearing buff active because the CDR per Combo Point value is high enough that I feel bad wasting any CP. That said, as noted earlier, the difference in a sim is essentially negligible regardless of current buffs.

 because I came looking in the comment section for that specific answer :P

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1 minute ago, Iridar said:

 because I came looking in the comment section for that specific answer :P

Yeah, that's actually already been updated, just waiting for the changes to go live on the site :) Going to stipulate that in all three specialization guides!

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  • /target "Tank's Name"
  • /cast Tricks of the Trade
  • /targetlasttarget

/cast [target="Tanksname"] Tricks of the Trade

Is a more elegant solution

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If i'm using Vigor as my tier 3 talent choice, should I choose to go "always 5" or go "4-5"?

During my rotation, how many combo points should I spend on Roll the Bones and when should I refresh it?

Thanks again.

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