Outlaw Rogue 7.3

[Carrn 284]

7 hours ago, Guest Guest Guest said:

Would a full mastery outlaw rogue be viable? With alacrity and slice and dice at level 100, main gauche and combat potency would proc like crazy. Mass energy generation, plus you would look pretty badass.

Not really. It only does so much damage - while yes, you'd attack at a ridiculous speed, there are more benefits to the other buffs that RtB can give you which make it more beneficial

[Guest phup]

Are you basing your valuation of True Bearing on any kind of numbers or theorycrafting? or just intuition?  I don't mean that to sound negative, just genuinely curious.

I ask because on the initial sims coming from Askmrrobot's engine, Shark Infested waters is more valuable.  I don't know if their sim is accurate yet or not, but their blog seems to indicate the optimal strategy they've found so far is to fish for SiW (no pun intended) and only stop fishing when you get it or if you get a 3 buff roll.

[Carrn 284]

I've seen discussion between theorycrafters going both ways.

I'm sure that on a 30s fight (which a lot of encounters are now) the crit buff is really really valuable, but I think in the long run TB is going to be more beneficial.

Like I said I've seen discussion going both ways, and I'm not sure that there's a consensus about it yet

[Cantou 0]

 

Quote

For multiple-target situations where you can use Blade Flurry, here is how the various combinations rank (at equal item level):

1. Fast Main-hand / Slow Off-hand;

Very good to know this. But care to explain the reason of main-hand dagger?

[Carrn 284]

8 hours ago, Cantou said:

 

Very good to know this. But care to explain the reason of main-hand dagger?

I could be mistaken, but I'm 99.99% sure this is a leftover from the very beginning of WoD.

Combat's Mastery was tuned pretty high, and it resulted in some pretty silly results with Blade Flurry up. Every attack that you made would hit every target, then each one of those hits had a chance to proc a separate Mastery proc which could (I believe) then hit every other target again.

Because of this, maximising the number of white attacks that you could make resulted in higher dps - however, it was a very trivial amount of extra damage, and only really worked out in very specific situations - if you read Fiery's post that is linked in that section of the guide he breaks it down, but you'll notice that the increase is very small; having 10+ adds up for 20 seconds or more made it worth the swap, but those situations never exist in raid situations because large waves of adds like that tend to die much faster than 20s

[Cantou 0]

16 hours ago, Carrn said:

Combat's Mastery was tuned pretty high, and it resulted in some pretty silly results with Blade Flurry up. Every attack that you made would hit every target, then each one of those hits had a chance to proc a separate Mastery proc which could (I believe) then hit every other target again.

Thanks. So if I have 2 hammers, does this mean I should always put the one with higher item level at the offhand?

[Carrn 284]

4 hours ago, Cantou said:

Thanks. So if I have 2 hammers, does this mean I should always put the one with higher item level at the offhand?

Nope

Like I said, all of that is old information from the beginning of WoD

Your highest weapon damage should go in your main hand.

[Cantou 0]

13 hours ago, Carrn said:

Nope

Like I said, all of that is old information from the beginning of WoD

Your highest weapon damage should go in your main hand.

Got it. Thank you!

[Guest howolowitz]

I'm not sure if this has been answered in the guide or maybe i'm looking over it but to get a True Bearing buff for Adrenaline Rush at what amount of cps should i try to reroll the buffs? Just 1 is enough or do i need to go atleat 3-4?

[Iridar 80]

On 09.08.2016 at 10:41 PM, Guest howolowitz said:

I'm not sure if this has been answered in the guide or maybe i'm looking over it but to get a True Bearing buff for Adrenaline Rush at what amount of cps should i try to reroll the buffs? Just 1 is enough or do i need to go atleat 3-4?

It depends on what kind of buffs you already have. If Adrenaline Rush is about to be ready, and you already have some decent combat buffs that will last through the Adrenaline Rush, I would've just played with what I had, and only tried to reroll for True Bearing after the Adrenaline Rush.

I'm no expert, though, so let's see what better players will say.

Edited August 11, 2016 by Iridar

[Guest InsertName]

What's the point of posting a guide if you aren't going to update it for hotfixes? This is what happens when you have one person paid to make multiple guides. They rush it out and then don't give a shit about updating it.

 

Icy Veins has constantly had an issue with keeping guides current.

[Guest Tikky]

I have been trying to search everywhere on why a slow main hand is better than a offhand. Do you have an answer.

I understand the offhand slow for the mastery and I understand the slow main hand for killing spree. But since it's not even suggested to use killing spree, wouldnt we be better with a fast main hand ?

(I know that artifacts are slows) but I am still curious

[Carrn 284]

Your skills base their damage off your weapon damage, so the higher damage weapon you have the better off you will be.

[Guest weapon speed]

That is totally wrong, just try and test it, skills are based on physical power or weapon dps and not weapon damage..

 

2 items with the same item level will do the same, they do not use weapon damage for outlaw EXCEPT for killing spree ( a talent not suggested to take ) or the mastery *main gauche* that does offhand weapon damage..

So since we arent suppose to take killing spree, wouldnt I want a fast main hand to proc a lot of offhands..

 

[Guest Bored]

18 hours ago, Guest weapon speed said:

 

16 hours ago, Furty said:

Im getting a bit bored of replying here..

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Normalization

ALMOST all skills based on "weapon" damage are normalized, so dagger or 2h doesnt change anything, it's only based on DPS.

The only skills that arent based on normalized weapon damage  are indicated like killing spree wich specifically say "attack with offhand weapon" .. but W/E.. I'm done arguing here, everyone is replying without trying to understand my question

[Carrn 284]

6 hours ago, Guest Bored said:

Im getting a bit bored of replying here..

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Normalization

ALMOST all skills based on "weapon" damage are normalized, so dagger or 2h doesnt change anything, it's only based on DPS.

The only skills that arent based on normalized weapon damage  are indicated like killing spree wich specifically say "attack with offhand weapon" .. but W/E.. I'm done arguing here, everyone is replying without trying to understand my question

I'm honestly not really sure how to respond to this... I think there are a number of things that you aren't clear about, the differences between Weapon Damage, Weapon DPS, and Attack Power included.

Some skills, such as Run Through, base their damage off your Attack Power. This means that if you change weapons, assuming the weapons are the same item level, Run Through's damage will not change since both of the weapons will give the same amount of Agility and increase to your AP.

Other skills, such as Saber Slash, base their damage on a combination of different things, which includes Weapon Damage. What this means is when you swap to a slower weapon of the same item level, such as moving from a dagger to a sword, you will see an increase in the damage of this skill.

Now, there are things that are normalized for Outlaw Rogues as well. Things such as Combat Potency, a passive that has a chance to refund energy on your successful offhand white hits. This is normalized between slow and fast weapons, so faster offhands do not provide infinite energy regeneration

[Guest Chriz]

What's the difference now that Slice and Dice is 100% speed increase on attacks?  Is Roll the Bones still tops?

[Carrn 284]

40 minutes ago, Guest Chriz said:

What's the difference now that Slice and Dice is 100% speed increase on attacks?  Is Roll the Bones still tops?

Yes, because it has higher potential. You can roll 2 buffs at the same time which will vastly outweigh the sole AS buff from SnD

[Rasputan 3]

Hi, first time writing here, but Carrn knows me, so take that for what it's worth. I'm updating my weakauras, and I'm at the roll the bones portion. Having rolled quite a bit on a target dummy, I find I'm spending a lot of time trying to get True Bearing, and it feels like a loss of dps. I know if I have 2-3 buffs that's acceptable, even if I don't have a True Bearing buff. So, in terms of best for the amount, what would be the preferential buffs over the lesser? For a single buff, would this be the order of preference?

1. True Bearing
2. Broadsides
3. Shark Infested Waters
4. Grand Melee
5. Buried Treasure
6. Jolly Roger

For double buffs, you have Broadsides and Shark Infested Waters for burst, what would the other combinations be good for?

For triple buffs, I'm sure you'll be doing well with whatever you have, and all six? Well just stabby stab stab.

I guess what I'm asking, since I normally main a tank, what are the benefits for the buffs, and how best do I use them? I want to know which is best for sustained, burst, aoe, so I can make a weak aura that'll say ("Hey dummy, you got a good roll for aoe damage" and I can look and say, "Well poop, I'm just fighting one target, I better re-roll"). I know I'm asking for a lot, but rogues have been one of those classes that I just haven't been able to get behind since starting. 

 

Anyway, thanks, Rasp.

[Carrn 284]

8 hours ago, Rasputan said:

Hi, first time writing here, but Carrn knows me, so take that for what it's worth. I'm updating my weakauras, and I'm at the roll the bones portion. Having rolled quite a bit on a target dummy, I find I'm spending a lot of time trying to get True Bearing, and it feels like a loss of dps. I know if I have 2-3 buffs that's acceptable, even if I don't have a True Bearing buff. So, in terms of best for the amount, what would be the preferential buffs over the lesser? For a single buff, would this be the order of preference?

1. True Bearing
2. Broadsides
3. Shark Infested Waters
4. Grand Melee
5. Buried Treasure
6. Jolly Roger

For double buffs, you have Broadsides and Shark Infested Waters for burst, what would the other combinations be good for?

For triple buffs, I'm sure you'll be doing well with whatever you have, and all six? Well just stabby stab stab.

I guess what I'm asking, since I normally main a tank, what are the benefits for the buffs, and how best do I use them? I want to know which is best for sustained, burst, aoe, so I can make a weak aura that'll say ("Hey dummy, you got a good roll for aoe damage" and I can look and say, "Well poop, I'm just fighting one target, I better re-roll"). I know I'm asking for a lot, but rogues have been one of those classes that I just haven't been able to get behind since starting. 

 

Anyway, thanks, Rasp.

Should have just asked me, if you were going to post here Rasp :P

I haven't seen Legion Sims yet, but from what I understand after the nerfs / buffs currently it's best to look for any 2 buffs; it doesn't matter which ones. Fishing for SiW OR any 2 buffs is very close, pulling ~1k less dps

The only real variation to that that I can think of would be not re-rolling TB if  you're running MfD and there's a bunch of adds out and AR is on cooldown, since you could quickly chop off a huge portion of the cooldown.

Certainly come Legion TB's value will be significantly less on average, since we'll have a lot less Haste to build for finishers, but it might be worth rolling for if AR and / or Dreadblades are coming off cooldown soon.

[Rasputan 3]

Thanks Carrn, after speaking to you in game, I think I have everything set up the way I need it. For those wondering;

Single buff, reroll if anything but Shark Infested Waters

If True Bearing, reroll if Adrenaline Rush is on cooldown, and greater than 10 seconds remain.

For double buffs, if Grand Melee comes up, reroll, but at a point where there is a low point in dps, or you know you're going to have to move soon, otherwise it's ok to just keep it.

For triple and six buffs, keep them no matter what they are.

The way Outlaw Rogue is designed, there's no real predictable burst window, and you shouldn't reroll to find the right set of buffs for the situation you're in.

Yes, I was working on some weakauras for this, I have a lot of characters, so I have a few that are rolled into one, with additional ones applying depending upon the class/spec. What this means is; I don't have a single weakaura for any particular spec. I have uploaded them, and have a screenshot, so if you want to pick stuff out and incorporate it into your own, or just use it as is, that's fine.

The shitty image I have shows the 4 addons I have active for Outlaw. Top left is a simple Roll the Bones aura. It expands outwards, and just has the icons, with a duration displayed on each one. The next three are rather large files, despite their apparent size. Below it is Outlaw Rogue, which has most defensive cds, Adrenaline Rush, and Blade Flurry. The one below that is Outlaw Rogue Rotation. To use this, the one on the far left has the higher priority, with the ones to the right of it either lower priority, or just showing as available for when you have a burst window appearing. The bottom one is called Pop Up. I have that showing on all of my characters, and it adapts to whatever class/spec you have. It shows Target Name and Health, player energy resource, multiple ones if applies, and target cast. It also has a Visible GCD bar, and a Cast Bar, and it only appears when in combat.

The top right shows all of them together as in use. Apologies if there's a better format to doing all this stuff.

Roll the Bones

Outlaw Rogue

Outlaw Rogue Rotation

Pop Up

[TBlakely 0]

What if you have a dagger that is several ilvs higher than your second slow weapon, would it be a better choice for all situations not just cleaving?

[Carrn 284]

2 hours ago, TBlakely said:

What if you have a dagger that is several ilvs higher than your second slow weapon, would it be a better choice for all situations not just cleaving?

Depends how high "several" is, but I would hazard a guess that it probably doesn't matter. Overall you'd be gaining more white damage with the dagger but losing Mastery damage with the sword. 

However, if the dagger is high enough level to have more damage (not DPS) than your other sword, go with the dagger.

[Guest Who]

For multiple-target situations, when we use Blade Flurry, we swap to a Fast Main-hand / Slow Off-hand configuration.

How will this work with the Artifact weapons? 

The Dreadblades, Fate + Fortune (Slow Main Hand Sword + Slow Off Hand Sword) are both 2.60 speed.  

Will we still swap weapons for Blade Flurry?

[Lockybalboa 618]

There will be nothing to swap too. There are literally no weapons in Legion other than the artifact ones.