Damien

Blood Death Knight 7.3

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This thread is for comments about our Blood Death Knight guide for Legion.

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Actually, tremble before me is OP talent for big pulls. It stuns mobs time to time, so they dont hit you. 

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6 hours ago, Guest Donkeyjani said:

Actually, tremble before me is OP talent for big pulls. It stuns mobs time to time, so they dont hit you. 

I asked our reviewer about this and he doesn't really agree. I'll let him elaborate on this, though.

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2 hours ago, Guest Tylantia said:

Grasp imo is far superior, considering its -CD coupled with alot of DnD procs.

With 2min cd? Yea grasp is nice, but not superior. 

 

And it's wrong to say in guide that tremble is useless in pve. 

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The disregard of Tremble Before Me as a PvE talent is understandable, people would usually be using tons of AoE on pulls with many mobs and this would break any semblance of stun on them. It is a useful talent for solo play tho, but I'm guessing this is catering towards raids and dungeos, not solo play.

On another note, I disagree with the lack of use for Rune Tap. Doing a bit of calculations with Foul Bulwark, the maximum health increase is 20%, which after Death Strike applies would only increase the minimum DS heal to about 12%, which is a mere 2% extra. Sure, it accumulates and can make a difference but this extra 2% would be assuming you have full bone shield, which usually isn't the case. More often than nor the enemy will hit you right after a Marrowrend on which case you would go down to 9 or even less depending on when you use your DS so its not 2% but rather less than 2% and 1% at 5 BS charges which is usually what you'd be above of. So all in all the increase isn't that great even with the synergy with Ossuary. On the other hand you have Rune Tap, which has a low cd and does consistent 25% damage reduction, which means you'd have an extra reliable mitigation effect which probably prevents as much damage as the extra 2% on the DS would. I'll go with rune tap.

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Wouldn't our potion of choice be versatility instead of bonus armor considering bonus armor no longer exists?

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28 minutes ago, Guest Raelik said:

Wouldn't our potion of choice be versatility instead of bonus armor considering bonus armor no longer exists?

I'm thinking to go mastery -> crit -> versatility -> haste. 

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1st up; thanks for the guide!

It would be useful for the guide to be updated to point out the situation(s) that these Talents would be useful for; eg. This combo is probably the most effective vs raid bosses. It may be obvious to those who create the guides but the players most likely to come to IcyVeins in the first place are the players most likely to need to know that there can be better alternatives in certain situations (such as the alternatives suggested in the 'Rotation' page)

Better still would be options for the most likely situations will be in for the next few weeks;

  • Vs. Raid/Dungeon Bosses (Maybe breaking stuns/fears with [Wraith Walk] is more useful here)
  • Vs. More than X mobs - eg. Dungeon
  • Vs Solo content - eg. Levelling (Maybe [Tremble Before Me] is more useful here)

 

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1) As was said, Tremble Before Me might be fine for solo large pulls, but it shouldn't be needed there. In any group content, the amount of AoE going out will never be 0, and since the disorients are both random and on a 10 second ICD, it's not reliable enough for anything. At best, it could be used on a fight like Xhul'horac to cause random interrupts on the imps, but this would require giving up faster grip CD (which is objectively better), and timing DnD with imps.

2) I fucked up potions, agreed. Guide is being updated, but it's versatility for survivability, strength for DPS. Versatility for surv because it still gives 1500 stat instead of 1000

3) Rune Tap is an interesting talent. While it can have its place, its uses are very niche and it is overall worse than Foul Bulwark. Foul Bulwark provides a consistent survivability boost throughout the fight. The additional Death Strike heal isn't what matters, it's the stability of having extra HP, which gives healers much more breathing room. Additionally, with Rune Tap, you will lose out on DPS and RP generation. Even with an average of 6-7 stacks of Bone Shield, Foul Bulwark is still much, much better.

4) I'll be honest, I haven't tested much WoD content in prepatch, as my focus was on Legion. Once the guide is updated to Legion, there will be further depth about talents for specific bosses and dungeons.

Edited by Aughyssul
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3 hours ago, Guest Luio said:

The disregard of Tremble Before Me as a PvE talent is understandable, people would usually be using tons of AoE on pulls with many mobs and this would break any semblance of stun on them. It is a useful talent for solo play tho, but I'm guessing this is catering towards raids and dungeos, not solo play.

On another note, I disagree with the lack of use for Rune Tap. Doing a bit of calculations with Foul Bulwark, the maximum health increase is 20%, which after Death Strike applies would only increase the minimum DS heal to about 12%, which is a mere 2% extra. Sure, it accumulates and can make a difference but this extra 2% would be assuming you have full bone shield, which usually isn't the case. More often than nor the enemy will hit you right after a Marrowrend on which case you would go down to 9 or even less depending on when you use your DS so its not 2% but rather less than 2% and 1% at 5 BS charges which is usually what you'd be above of. So all in all the increase isn't that great even with the synergy with Ossuary. On the other hand you have Rune Tap, which has a low cd and does consistent 25% damage reduction, which means you'd have an extra reliable mitigation effect which probably prevents as much damage as the extra 2% on the DS would. I'll go with rune tap.

Thank you for the suggestion. I'll let Aughy's post be your reply :)

2 hours ago, Guest Raelik said:

Wouldn't our potion of choice be versatility instead of bonus armor considering bonus armor no longer exists?

Yes, that's right. I'm fixing it now. Thanks!

2 hours ago, DomkeyJani said:

I'm thinking to go mastery -> crit -> versatility -> haste. 

I am making a stat update, but it's a bit the reverse of this :)

1 hour ago, Guest Kylo said:

1st up; thanks for the guide!

It would be useful for the guide to be updated to point out the situation(s) that these Talents would be useful for; eg. This combo is probably the most effective vs raid bosses. It may be obvious to those who create the guides but the players most likely to come to IcyVeins in the first place are the players most likely to need to know that there can be better alternatives in certain situations (such as the alternatives suggested in the 'Rotation' page)

Better still would be options for the most likely situations will be in for the next few weeks;

  • Vs. Raid/Dungeon Bosses (Maybe breaking stuns/fears with [Wraith Walk] is more useful here)
  • Vs. More than X mobs - eg. Dungeon
  • Vs Solo content - eg. Levelling (Maybe [Tremble Before Me] is more useful here)

 

Thank you for this post. Right now, the guides are geared towards raiding (and always have), not dungeons and certainly not solo content. This may change in the future, but right now that's the case. Sometimes we mention when a talent is better for dungeons or solo content, but it's pretty exceptional right now.

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A very small change, and honestly it might be too self evident to be worth adding, but in the rotation I think it should be mentioned that Death Strike shouldn't always be cast when available.  Sometimes banking runic power and using Death Strike when you need health / are taking burst damage is the way to go, rather than just blindly following the rotation priority and using it as soon as you can.

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1 hour ago, Guest Exie said:

A very small change, and honestly it might be too self evident to be worth adding, but in the rotation I think it should be mentioned that Death Strike shouldn't always be cast when available.  Sometimes banking runic power and using Death Strike when you need health / are taking burst damage is the way to go, rather than just blindly following the rotation priority and using it as soon as you can.

Thanks for the suggestion, we'll see if we can clarify this :)

1 hour ago, Dium said:

What are the exact stat weights so I can import them into AMR?

Going to tag @Aughyssul here, because I honestly have no idea. Perhaps he can help you with that. No promises though!

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I unfortunately fucked up and lost allll my simcraft data a few days ago. I'm rebuilding my APL and shit now, hopefully I'll have real stat weights soon.

As for the Death Strike thing, it does clarify underneath that it should be used reactively, but I'll see about clarifying that more :)

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Can someone please explain to me why haste is now the best and crit is above mastery? I just fail to see why, isn't bloodshield our main form of AM?

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Some errors and oddities:

in talents, the description of tombstone talks about consumed runes, rather than consumed bone shield charges

 

in the rotations  page section 5.2, second para, it says "Death Knights have, as we have seen above, a very large number of survival cooldowns."  this is no longer true, almost all our cool downs have dissapeared

 

in the stats priority page, the 1st two lists are identical.

 

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10 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

Can someone please explain to me why haste is now the best and crit is above mastery? I just fail to see why, isn't bloodshield our main form of AM?

Death Strike is not the same Death Strike we are used to. DS is more of a reactive heal, rather than a protective shield. Death Strike can be used preemptively because it is Active Mitigation (3 sec window), however the shield that it provides is very small now. Mastery effects how big your shields are. I have a TON of mastery on my DK and the shield DS provides is very small. Having a lot of mastery does not increase the shield very much, therefore its value is less. 

Haste is really good because it increases the rate in which our runes regenerate. More runes equals more Marrowrends, which increases the uptime of our Bone Shield and provides us with Active MItigation for 3 seconds. More runes also equals more Heart Strikes which is our main Runic Power generator so we can cast more Death Strikes, mainly to heal us back up.

Here is a blue post talking about Marrowred's active mitigation it: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20743504316?page=21#408

As far as Crit is concerned, it increases your parry, which means more times we are not getting hit, compared to a DS shield (which is TINY) absorbing only some of the damage. http://www.wowhead.com/spell=161797/riposte

The gameplay of a Blood DK has shifted dramatically imo. We no longer rely on your DS shield to protect us. It is now all about keeping our Bone Shield stacks above 5, Death Striking after being hit, and filling with Heart Strike. 

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On July 21, 2016 at 3:45 PM, Guest Sonalita said:

Some errors and oddities:

in talents, the description of tombstone talks about consumed runes, rather than consumed bone shield charges

 

in the rotations  page section 5.2, second para, it says "Death Knights have, as we have seen above, a very large number of survival cooldowns."  this is no longer true, almost all our cool downs have dissapeared

 

in the stats priority page, the 1st two lists are identical.

 

Thank you very much for pointing out these errors. I'm going to fix them now :)

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I think until AMR manages to wrangle all it's cats (and even afterwards) we would all would like to applaud Aughyssul for all the work, and I for one can't express how much I appreciate your offer to share those stat weights.

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On 7/20/2016 at 10:43 PM, Aughyssul said:

I unfortunately fucked up and lost allll my simcraft data a few days ago. I'm rebuilding my APL and shit now, hopefully I'll have real stat weights soon.

As for the Death Strike thing, it does clarify underneath that it should be used reactively, but I'll see about clarifying that more :)

Hey @Aughyssul, just wondering if you've got the stat weights figured out again or something. 

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Hello, why is the recommended flask stamina instead of strength? If stamina is that good, it should be recommended for food as well. Or the stat prio with strength > haste is wrong.

if its
strength > stamina > haste
it should be strength flask and stamina food

if its
stamina > strength > haste
it should be stamina flask & food

Or is it depending on the amount of stamina you already have. But this should be said in the guide.

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Hey!

I have some question about stats priority. Why strength is on top of list? Strength is giving nothing to our survivability only dps increase, or I'm wrong? Explain please.

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On July 26, 2016 at 5:39 PM, Treufus said:

Hello, why is the recommended flask stamina instead of strength? If stamina is that good, it should be recommended for food as well. Or the stat prio with strength > haste is wrong.

if its
strength > stamina > haste
it should be strength flask and stamina food

if its
stamina > strength > haste
it should be stamina flask & food

Or is it depending on the amount of stamina you already have. But this should be said in the guide.

Stamina flask is best for survivability, and Strength flask is best for increasing damage output. The actual moment to decide to switch between the two is hard to identify, but as the guide says, you need "enough" Stamina. I'm going to edit the enchants page to mention that Strength flask is best for damage.

Stamina doesn't really have a place in the stat priority. And at this time (pre-patch), you probably don't need Stamina at all, depending on your gear.

19 hours ago, Guest Opi said:

Hey!

I have some question about stats priority. Why strength is on top of list? Strength is giving nothing to our survivability only dps increase, or I'm wrong? Explain please.

Strength is at the top of the stat priorities because it provides attack power and parry, both of which are valuable. There is also a trend currently (especially during the pre-patch) to maximise tank DPS, since dying is less of an issue than during real progression content.

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I did some casual theorycrafting myself, as I wanted to better understand stat priority given here (except for Haste, which would be too time consuming to calculate for me). Keep in mind, I haven't played beta Legion yet. I measured stat usefulness against a training dummy first and then roughly extrapolated on Normal/Heroic raiding environment. This is what I got:

Spoiler

Lets assume I choose between Mastery, Parry and Versatility:

  • 73.3 Mastery Rating gives me 1% increased Physical absorb from Death Strike base healing.
  • The same amount of Parry (or Crit) Rating gives me 0.45% chance to parry an attack.
  • 73.3 Versatility Rating gives me +0.56%damage/healing_done and -0.28%damage_taken.

To get the idea how often my character is being hit in a spherical vacuum conditions I went to the Dungeon's Training Dummy and checked how often it would hit me and for how much damage on average (before it applies 5% increased damage done on itself):
The training dummy does approximately 9 hits every 10 seconds and deals ~40k damage per hit for ~360k total to my character.
My character has 570k health, 40% Mastery and 13% Haste. I manage to use Death Strike ~1.6 times every 10 seconds against single Dummy while keeping Bone Shield up. Within 10 seconds frame 1.6 of Death Strikes heal for 91.2k health and absorbs 36.5k damage with my 40% Mastery.

In these conditions:

  • With extra 73.3 Parry Rating (+0.45%) every ~223rd attack would be parried effectively mitigating ~40k damage every 247.5 second or ~1616 Physical damage every 10 seconds.
  • With extra 73.3 Mastery Rating (+1%) ~912 Physical damage would be absorbed every 10 seconds.
  • With extra 73.3 Versatility Rating (+0.56%damage/healing_done and -0.28%damage_taken) my character would get ~511 healing, ~204 Physical absorb and ~1008 less ALL damage every 10 seconds. Total ~1715 points.

Haste would be too time consuming to calculate for me.

Keep in mind that these are all approximate numbers aimed to give a general idea of the relative usefulness of each secondary stat. And they apply to my character.

You may have different stats distribution/environment and this is how different stats affect numbers:

Less Mastery (say, if you have absolutely no Mastery on gear and only base character Mastery of 12%) would only affect the usefulness of extra 73.3 Versatility Rating and only marginally. It would give ~61 instead of ~204 Physical absorb every 10 seconds.

More health would increase the usefulness of both Mastery and Versatility:
Very roughly 10% more health would translate into stronger mitigation effect from Mastery  by 10% and from Versatility by 4%. However mitigation from Parry will remain the same.

If for some reason you fight something other than Training Dummy you probably take more damage within 10 seconds frames. That would make Versatility and Parry more useful.
Roughly 10% more damage taken within 10 seconds would translate into 6% stronger mitigation effect from Versatility and 10% stronger mitigation from Parry.

Finally, if you are being hit more often than 9 times every 10 seconds (with average hit still doing ~40k damage) Parry and Versatility become more useful, while Mastery does not.
11% more hits (1 extra hit per 10 seconds) would translate into 6% stronger mitigation effect from Versatility and 11% stronger mitigation from Parry.

As you can see, environment with stronger/faster hits on your character increases Parry usefulness more (faster) than Versatility allowing Parry to catch up with Versatility in usefulness at some not too distant point.

Obviously, I am not a hardcore raider. All these calculations are done with the Training Dummy. It does less damage than 50% of your total health every 5 seconds, so Mastery doesn't benefit from stronger than minimal Death Strike healing. 

In raids damage taken per 10 seconds is much higher, though the number of hits per 10 seconds could be less than 9. 
If my character (570k health, 40% Mastery and 1.6 Death Strikes every 10 seconds) is being hit 6 times every 10 seconds and takes damage equal to 100% of his total health, than 

  • 73.3 Parry would mitigate ~2554 points of Physical damage.
  • 73.3 Mastery would absorb ~1824 points of Physical damage.
  • 73.3 Versatility would give stronger heal+absorb+reduction by ~1021+409+1596 or total ~3026 points (where 1596 points of Physical AND Magical type damage.

 

Edited by Enly

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      The final boss of the dungeon drops an Engineering recipe instead of a mount: Schematic: Mecha-Mogul Mk2. The mount (Mecha-Mogul Mk2) is listed as BoP right now.

      The Underrot [Dungeon Preview]
      Underrot Crawg Harness drops from the Unbound Abomination (Mythic) or you can get it from the Challenger's Cache found within the dungeon.

      Other Mounts
      Reins of the Obsidian Krolusk could potentially drop from the final boss of Tol Dagor, but the drop is still listed as a placeholder.

    • By joat
      Who We Are
      Tequila Sundown is a mythic raid team formed within the <Karma Horde> guild on US-Stormreaver. Lead by a husband/wife team with high-level raiding experience dating back to WotLK, we're a "positively determined" progression team that maintains a light-hearted atmosphere while tackling mythic difficulty content. We're mature adults with jobs and family seeking like-minded players who have a passion for the game but want to avoid the needless angst or drama that often gets associated with progression raiding. We log on to have fun - so come have some fun with us!

      A Team Within a Community
      Our raid team is one of three within the larger guild of <Karma Horde>, which was formed back during WotLK. As such, the guild and Discord are very active and social. There are always people around online and in-game. The community atmosphere is welcoming and friendly to players of all levels. The guild enforces a Code of Conduct that has zero tolerance for hate/offensive speech.
      We are always looking to add players with a friendly personality and lots of passion for the game. We want players who are going to log in on non-raid nights and be down for all the other things we're into: pushing mythic+, doing world quests, PVP shenanigans, achievement hunting, hyper-competitive fishing.. there's so much to do and so many ways to enjoy the game. This is our favorite hobby and we'd like to play with you if it is yours, too.

      Progression Goals
      We are 6/11 Mythic, Heroic AOTC Antorus progression.
      We strive for a fun environment that takes the challenges of mythic seriously and giving the content the respect it deserves. Our aim is, as all mythic teams, full clear of content but with always keeping the friendly spirit of camaraderie alive. Performance matters, but so does staying positive and finding the fun in the difficulty of a raid. We do not require mythic raid experience to join our team but we do expect mythic-level dedication and accountability from all of our raiders. You must be able to take constructive criticism and have ownership over your level of play, and be willing to put in the effort to be a contribution to the team.

      Raid Days/Times
      Our mandatory raids are:
      Tuesdays 8:45pm PT - 11:45pm PT
      Thursdays 8:45pm PT - 11:45pm PT
      Optional:
      Sundays 8:45pm PT - 11:45pm PT
      Sundays are for farming the previous raid difficulty.

      Recruitment Needs
      Healer: We need to add a healer to our core. Holy Paladin preferred, will consider any.
      DPS: We are looking for DPS with the gear/experience to contribute immediately. Will consider all specs. Bonus points for good healing offspec. 

      The Nitty Gritty
      If you're intrigued, please check out our wiki on the <Karma Horde> subreddit. This will give you a deeper dive into the raid team:
      https://www.reddit.com/r/FTH/wiki/tequilasundown

      Contact Us
      You can reach us on bnet: joat#1832 & lambkill#1856
      or Discord: joat#1832 & saever#4432
    • By Stan

      We're starting off the Battle for Azeroth dungeon previews with the Underrot on Normal difficulty.
      Loot Info
      Difficulty Loot Item Level Normal 310 Heroic 325 Mythic 340 Don't forget to check out our Battle for Azeroth content hub for the latest WoW news!
      Bosses
      1. Elder Leaxa
      Elder Leaxa corrupts players with Taint of G'huun whenever her abilities inflict damage. With the power of the blood god, she can split into several Blood Effigies that mirror her abilities.
      Healers
      Quickly heal players with Taint of G'huun. Tanks
      Interrupt Blood Bolt to avoid Taint of G'huun. Avoid Creeping Rot as it moves. Damage Dealers
      Avoid Creeping Rot as it moves. Quickly damage the Blood Effigies created by Blood Mirror. 2. Cragmaw the Infested
      Cragmaw's abilities shed Blood Ticks and Blood Tick Larvae throughout the arena. Deal with Infested Crawg's attacks while quickly dispatching Blood Ticks and stomping on Blood Tick Larvae before their Metamorphosis can complete.
      Healers
      Step on Blood Tick Larvae to destroy them before they grow into additional Blood Ticks. Tantrum inflicts significant damage to all party members. Tanks
      Avoid facing Indigestion at allies and destroy the larvae spawned by it. Protect your allies from Blood Ticks that spawn throughout the encounter. Damage Dealers
      Step on Blood Tick Larvae to destroy them before they grow into additional Blood Ticks. Defeat Blood Ticks before your party is overwhelmed. 3. Sporecaller Zancha
      Boundless Rot summons spore pods throughout the area. Upon reaching 100 Energy, Zancha casts Festering Harvest destroying any remaining spore pods and applying the effects of Decaying Spores to all players.
      Healers
      Decaying Spores inflicts direct damage and significant damage over time. Upheaval inflicts substantial damage. Tanks
      Position Zancha so that he strikes spore pods with Shockwave. Damage Dealers
      Utilize Upheaval to safely destroy spore pods while avoiding your allies. Destroy additional spore pods using defensive abilities if necessary. 4. Unbound Abomination
      The final boss has a chance to drop the Underrot Crawg Harness mount on Mythic difficulty. The mount can also be found in the final Challenger's Cache after finishing a Mythic+ run.
      The Unbound Abomination is protected by a Blood Barrier that absorbs all damage taken. As damage is absorbed, the abomination overflows with Blood Energy. Upon reaching 100 Blood Energy, several Blood Visages erupt from the abomination. Each Blood Visage shares a Fatal Link with the abomination that damages it when they die.
      Healers
      Putrid Blood will quickly overrun the party if not dispelled. Tanks
      Several Blood Visages spawn when the Unbound Abomination reaches 100 Blood Energy. Damage Dealers
      The Unbound Abomination can only be damaged by killing Blood Visages. Titan Keeper Hezrel will aid players with Cleansing Light and Purge Corruption. Gameplay Video
      Here's a gameplay video of the Underrot dungeon on Normal difficulty.
    • By Starym

       
      Just how locked in are the classes in the beta, which specs need more work and more.
      The biggest and most long-term relevant changes in any new expansion are class modifications and Blizzard have been a little more forthcoming with their design goals and principles during the Alpha, from the dev watercooler back at the start covering the design overview to come, to pretty regular updates on specific topics like changing how blocking works and the ever unpopular global cooldown changes. 
      Today we have another explanation on class design, related to the Beta that's just launched and going into just how "finished" the current class design is, as Kaiwax responds to a forum post. The TLDR on it is that nothing is set in stone yet, but most specs have their rotations and look and feel in place, with Unholy and Frost DKs and Prot Warriors set to receive some changes in those areas. The Azerite system will impact class changes during the beta the most, as it still hasn't been fully tested and implemented.
      For more specific info on class changes you can always check out our BfA hub for all the updates, or just head to the latest talent changes or Azerite traits directly.
      Kaiwax (source)
      Hello!
      I wouldn't call anything "locked" during testing and active development. Our development processes are as iterative as they've ever been, and we're always looking for places where we need to make further changes to meet design goals.
      Having said that, we're close to finished with the changes to the rotations and the look and feel for most specs. We’ve still got a few changes coming soon in the Beta to Unholy Death Knights, Frost Death Knights, and Protection Warriors.
      We used the Alpha timeframe to make some surgical changes to several other specs, and we're somewhat finished with that stage of development for this expansion.
      In the days and weeks to come in the Beta, we're going to keep a focus on how every spec plays with regard to the new itemization systems in Battle for Azeroth. While it's certainly possible that feedback on how Azerite affects a certain spec could lead us to do further development on that spec's rotation, we don't expect to need any big changes to talents that would justify the words "severe" or "overhaul".
      Beyond itemization concerns, there may be spots where we’ll do focused problem-solving around rotational issues (examples: “it turns out that simulations say never to use X, but X seems like it should be part of my core rotation” or “my spec is too feast-or-famine, and if I have bad luck with Y procs, I feel useless.”).
      As always, thank you very much for testing the Beta and making your experiences testing inform your feedback. Focused feedback is super-helpful.