Mykris

Unholy Frenzy why?

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Hello everyone, im not big on simulating nor great at theorycrafting.

A thing that we start seeing more and more are Unholy Frenzy used on Xavius, and due to the guide here on icy veins are saying its not an option im really asking why?

if someone here have figgured it out and can tell me why and how it synergize with what.

i would greatly appricate some help here

Sorry for the bad english

Thanks

-Mykris

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I'm curious where you are seeing this. I checked the top 1000 heroic logs on xavius and less than 5% of players are using it, even then that number was pulled out of my bum, i'm sure the actually percentage is quite lower, I can scroll for a loooong time before i see another person using it. So, I can't say unholy frenzy is that popular at all among competitive players striving to parse, which in itself says a lot. People who focus on parsing typically ignore mechanics and strive for highest dps possible on a fight. Unholy frenzy just really can't hold a candle to castigator at all.

As far as those using it I can only imagine two possibilities, one they are doing it wrong, but two is specifically looking at how xavius works. Phase 1 and 2 are your basic raid fight. Phase 3 is a rapid horrible race to try and burn him down as fast as possible. Phase 3 has no mechanics other then KILL IT NOWWWWWW. So, my best guess is they are taking unholy frenzy in the thought that it will increase their burst dps in that phase, that's the best explanation I can muster. 

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if u check dks like kanj from danish terrace he logged out with unholy frenzy and necrosis ofc we cant tell how good it is or if he did log out like that to actually confuse people, i just expect he knows what he is doing so there must be a reason for it right ?

Edit. i would like to know in When to utilize a build like that

Edited by Mykris

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5 minutes ago, Mykris said:

if u check dks like kanj from danish terrace he logged out with unholy frenzy and necrosis ofc we cant tell how good it is or if he did log out like that to actually confuse people, i just expect he knows what he is doing so there must be a reason for it right ?

Edit. i would like to know in When to utilize a build like that

that's a really really specific single example friend. That player could have just been farting around on a target dummy or even then doing something pvp wise. The actions of a single individual don't make something the go to ideal. Making a guide about ideal builds you need to look sims, logs, theorycrafting work. However, logs are really the realistic truth of ability variety. What the top 100-200 people are doing to hit the highest numbers is what is likely favored, if something is super powerful and new you'll see more players utilizing it, with such a low percent using it, we can surmise its not good.

really following the mindset, top 1000 dps in the world aren't using it, sims don't advise it, its really just not a good pve talent at all (might be for pvp dunno really).

as far as using it in a build.... i wouldn't. I mean if you chose it , it's completely passive so there's nothing to do. However, if going for a burst build you would still take castigator over it. There is no currently known effective pve build that utilizes unholy frenzy. 

So, the DK you mentioned, was either playing around with target dummies or doing some pvp. 

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2 minutes ago, demonardvark said:

that's a really really specific single example friend. That player could have just been farting around on a target dummy or even then doing something pvp wise. The actions of a single individual don't make something the go to ideal. Making a guide about ideal builds you need to look sims, logs, theorycrafting work. However, logs are really the realistic truth of ability variety. What the top 100-200 people are doing to hit the highest numbers is what is likely favored, if something is super powerful and new you'll see more players utilizing it, with such a low percent using it, we can surmise its not good.

really following the mindset, top 1000 dps in the world aren't using it, sims don't advise it, its really just not a good pve talent at all (might be for pvp dunno really).

as far as using it in a build.... i wouldn't. I mean if you chose it , it's completely passive so there's nothing to do. However, if going for a burst build you would still take castigator over it. There is no currently known effective pve build that utilizes unholy frenzy. 

So, the DK you mentioned, was either playing around with target dummies or doing some pvp. 

i know the last thing he did last night was killing Xavius mythic. but ur right its prob a misunderstanding, whenever we saw the (at the time) rank 1 on heroic xavius Log here. i just though there was somthing about it. but as u said there is no logical reason for using it. 

Thanks for the quick replies!

-Mykris

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3 minutes ago, Mykris said:

i know the last thing he did last night was killing Xavius mythic. but ur right its prob a misunderstanding, whenever we saw the (at the time) rank 1 on heroic xavius Log here. i just though there was somthing about it. but as u said there is no logical reason for using it. 

Thanks for the quick replies!

-Mykris

well also checking the logs that individual uses unholy frenzy on every single fight, not just specifically xavius. They used it on nythendra and illy as well. It appears that individual just seems to like that talent. They are certainly doing great dps. However, looking at their gear I can give you an estimation as to why they were actually using it. 

If you look at their gear, they have the instructors fourth lesson legendary item. This causes you to burst additional wounds with scourge strike. I imagine the mentality is that they dropped castigator because crits can cause additional wounds to be burst as well. I imagine their mindset was that they can't keep wounds up using both, that they need to build 7 ish stacks before casting scourge strike otherwise they will burn all their runes in one hit and not be able to burst any more. 

On paper this is actually sound logic, however, castigator also applies more wounds as well. So, for wound bursting flow they may have found unholy frenzy limits the number of wound stacks they need before scourge striking. In this scenario clawing shadows would be a poor choice just because of damage issues, so, the only reasonable option left is unholy frenzy. 

So, looking at their gear, I can see the mindset, its because of their legendary that they changed the talents. However, even with instructors fourth I'd still take castigator because it can help build more wounds to burst, but, I can understand their reasoning for choosing unholy frenzy in this case. 

so the logs couldn't solve this mystery but the armory could. so there was a reason that made logical sense :)

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4 hours ago, demonardvark said:

well also checking the logs that individual uses unholy frenzy on every single fight, not just specifically xavius. They used it on nythendra and illy as well. It appears that individual just seems to like that talent. They are certainly doing great dps. However, looking at their gear I can give you an estimation as to why they were actually using it. 

If you look at their gear, they have the instructors fourth lesson legendary item. This causes you to burst additional wounds with scourge strike. I imagine the mentality is that they dropped castigator because crits can cause additional wounds to be burst as well. I imagine their mindset was that they can't keep wounds up using both, that they need to build 7 ish stacks before casting scourge strike otherwise they will burn all their runes in one hit and not be able to burst any more. 

On paper this is actually sound logic, however, castigator also applies more wounds as well. So, for wound bursting flow they may have found unholy frenzy limits the number of wound stacks they need before scourge striking. In this scenario clawing shadows would be a poor choice just because of damage issues, so, the only reasonable option left is unholy frenzy. 

So, looking at their gear, I can see the mindset, its because of their legendary that they changed the talents. However, even with instructors fourth I'd still take castigator because it can help build more wounds to burst, but, I can understand their reasoning for choosing unholy frenzy in this case. 

so the logs couldn't solve this mystery but the armory could. so there was a reason that made logical sense :)

Thanks a ton for this reply, i happen to sit with the legendary wrist i might try it for giggles on normal see how it feels. i completely get the point with keeping castigator for applying more wounds(and busting).

once again thanks alot for the reply!

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According to my own theory testing and watching of players logs and etc. I can say that unholy frenzy isn't nearly as far behind as people think it is, though it requires very specific min maxing keeping the buff up 100% as well as the ring that increases all autos by 10%, as well as the instructors fourth lesson, and the usage of infected claw, on top of you having to be poorly optimized such as having high haste/verse and low amounts of crit for this to become more optimal, which in some cases can actually be higher dps than castigor.

Example is that lets say you have a good amount of crit but your not equpiting all your highest ilvl pieces because it just doesn't play out better because of your low amount of crit with that gear, but lets say you can achieve 7 ilvls more but have to have low amounts with this swap this may be the time you would consider this choice. ( also requires instructors fourth lesson) 

TLDR: very specific situations it can be just as good if not better with really good min maxing.

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1 hour ago, Drtain said:

According to my own theory testing and watching of players logs and etc. I can say that unholy frenzy isn't nearly as far behind as people think it is, though it requires very specific min maxing keeping the buff up 100% as well as the ring that increases all autos by 10%, as well as the instructors fourth lesson, and the usage of infected claw, on top of you having to be poorly optimized such as having high haste/verse and low amounts of crit for this to become more optimal, which in some cases can actually be higher dps than castigor.

Example is that lets say you have a good amount of crit but your not equpiting all your highest ilvl pieces because it just doesn't play out better because of your low amount of crit with that gear, but lets say you can achieve 7 ilvls more but have to have low amounts with this swap this may be the time you would consider this choice. ( also requires instructors fourth lesson) 

TLDR: very specific situations it can be just as good if not better with really good min maxing.

The legendary system this time in many ways makes things a pain in the butt for theorycrafters. However, the icy guide i point everyone to is the frost mage guide. There you can see little check boxes that have items or talents and as you check them the guide changes. The DK guides are in the process of being updated. I can't say that the checkbox thing is coming, but yes, depending on legendary the ideal talents change a bit. Even then as artifact progression goes other talents become more viable, like double doom makes necrosis very easy to use with a simple macro. Plus as people push mythic progression and potentially hit diminshing return stat points they start to invest in other things for the gains.

tldr guides are always in process of upgrade, and the best talent build always changes based upon gear, ilvl, and other factors. 

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