CoF - Talent priority

[Niquist 0]

Hey,

So the CoF trinket dropped for me yesterday, which means Im having a lot more uptime of Shadowblades. I guess its a good time to switch to Anticipation, since i will have a lot more CP overflow (+4 Set Bonus) and Deeper Strategem got nerfed too. Damage-wise i don't see a difference to DS though, while SimC calculates 20k+ dps with Anticipation. And should i always stack CP to 9-10 when i don't have the Finality Eviscerate Buff ? Im just torn between these two talents.

Another Problem i've noticed is SimC and Icy Veins say that Weaponmaster is better than Master of Subtlety although "top sub rogues" still play with MoS. Is there any reason behind that?

Incase you need it: http://eu.battle.net/wow/de/character/blackmoore/Yatan/simple

cheers

Edited February 20, 2017 by Niquist

[MrEdren 114]

9 hours ago, Niquist said:

Hey,

So the CoF trinket dropped for me yesterday, which means Im having a lot more uptime of Shadowblades. I guess its a good time to switch to Anticipation, since i will have a lot more CP overflow (+4 Set Bonus) and Deeper Strategem got nerfed too. Damage-wise i don't see a difference to DS though, while SimC calculates 20k+ dps with Anticipation. And should i always stack CP to 9-10 when i don't have the Finality Eviscerate Buff ? Im just torn between these two talents.

Another Problem i've noticed is SimC and Icy Veins say that Weaponmaster is better than Master of Subtlety although "top sub rogues" still play with MoS. Is there any reason behind that?

Incase you need it: http://eu.battle.net/wow/de/character/blackmoore/Yatan/simple

cheers

Actually pretty curious about this myself.  Carrn is like Super Sub, sure he (she?) will be along shortly.

[Carrn 284]

I actually have yet to get CoF, so I'm kind of tempted to not offer my opinion out of pure spite.

12 hours ago, Niquist said:

So the CoF trinket dropped for me yesterday, which means Im having a lot more uptime of Shadowblades. I guess its a good time to switch to Anticipation, since i will have a lot more CP overflow (+4 Set Bonus) and Deeper Strategem got nerfed too. Damage-wise i don't see a difference to DS though, while SimC calculates 20k+ dps with Anticipation. And should i always stack CP to 9-10 when i don't have the Finality Eviscerate Buff ? Im just torn between these two talents.

 

Unless I'm mistaken, Deeper Stratagem hasn't been nerfed since 7.1.5 right? Just to make sure I'm not missing something.

I haven't made the swap to Anticipation yet, since I admittedly got really lazy and stopped checking my logs for improvements up until this week. I did notice more overflow than I was expecting - while I expected some of it due to mismanaged Shadow Technique procs, I was surprised by how much was going to waste from other sources (aka also me being bad). Basically because of that, I'm going to be making the swap to Anticipation and see how that plays. I'm seeing more people going that way as well, although DS is still around.

The general rule is still don't spend a resource unless you have to - that applies to CP, Energy, and cooldowns. Basically that means you'll usually be aiming to play around 8-9CP, which won't penalize you if you get a Shadow Techniques proc or if you use any other skill, but obviously keeps able to use a 5CP finisher.

I'm also not sure if Blizz has fixed the bug yet, but Anticipation used to add extra damage beyond the 20% mark with Evis' Finality, so if you had 10CP total when you used it your Finality buff would be 40%. 

12 hours ago, Niquist said:

Another Problem i've noticed is SimC and Icy Veins say that Weaponmaster is better than Master of Subtlety although "top sub rogues" still play with MoS. Is there any reason behind that?

From what I know, the talents are pretty close, so it doesn't really matter which way you go. According to sims (from what I remember, anyways) MoS is better on 2+ target fights, but Weaponmaster had a slight edge in Single Target situations (assuming it procs properly - it doesn't always behave). I personally don't change off MoS.

I'm sure the Mantle legendary plays a little better with MoS too.

4 hours ago, MrEdren said:

Actually pretty curious about this myself.  Carrn is like Super Sub, sure he (she?) will be along shortly.

Aww... Making me blush :P

[Niquist 0]

8 hours ago, Carrn said:

Unless I'm mistaken, Deeper Stratagem hasn't been nerfed since 7.1.5 right? Just to make sure I'm not missing something.

Yeah, i meant the 10% -> 5% nerf a while ago. My bad.

8 hours ago, Carrn said:

I haven't made the swap to Anticipation yet, since I admittedly got really lazy and stopped checking my logs for improvements up until this week. I did notice more overflow than I was expecting - while I expected some of it due to mismanaged Shadow Technique procs, I was surprised by how much was going to waste from other sources (aka also me being bad). Basically because of that, I'm going to be making the swap to Anticipation and see how that plays. I'm seeing more people going that way as well, although DS is still around.

The general rule is still don't spend a resource unless you have to - that applies to CP, Energy, and cooldowns. Basically that means you'll usually be aiming to play around 8-9CP, which won't penalize you if you get a Shadow Techniques proc or if you use any other skill, but obviously keeps able to use a 5CP finisher.

I'm also not sure if Blizz has fixed the bug yet, but Anticipation used to add extra damage beyond the 20% mark with Evis' Finality, so if you had 10CP total when you used it your Finality buff would be 40%. 

The bug isn't fixed yet. Should i still aim for 8-9 cp when they eventually fix it? I guess it doesn't matter afterwards since the eviscerates will be the same with 5+ cps. So the 6-10 cp's from Anticipation will be the "fit another shadowstrike in the dance"-combopoints, correct me if I'm wrong.

8 hours ago, Carrn said:

From what I know, the talents are pretty close, so it doesn't really matter which way you go. According to sims (from what I remember, anyways) MoS is better on 2+ target fights, but Weaponmaster had a slight edge in Single Target situations (assuming it procs properly - it doesn't always behave). I personally don't change off MoS.

I'm sure the Mantle legendary plays a little better with MoS too.

Ok, so im not gonna overthink these 2 talents and just stick with my prefered MoS.

[MrEdren 114]

10 hours ago, Carrn said:

Aww... Making me blush :P

I try - but in actuality, I haven't given sub a serious try since shadowstrike sent me flying right past Krosus and off the bridge.

Kinda reminds me of the old days when Killing Spree would backfire like that and you'd just sort of do the Looney Toons "stop, wave at the camera and then plummet" thing.

Edited February 21, 2017 by MrEdren

[MrEdren 114]

2 hours ago, Niquist said:

Ok, so im not gonna overthink these 2 talents and just stick with my prefered MoS.

In my experience, as long as the gap between builds isn't enormous you'll usually do >= using the one you're more comfortable with than by trying to force the 'right' one.

[Carrn 284]

2 hours ago, MrEdren said:

I try - but in actuality, I haven't given sub a serious try since shadowstrike sent me flying right past Krosus and off the bridge.

Kinda reminds me of the old days when Killing Spree would backfire like that and you'd just sort of do the Looney Toons "stop, wave at the camera and then plummet" thing.

Yeah, we always joked that Killing Spree was named as such because of the number of times it got the Rogue killed rather than actually killed anyone else.

I have yet to have that happen on Krosus, although I believe it could if you use it when he's still out in the water and hasn't come back to the raid after smashing the bridge

[Carrn 284]

4 hours ago, Niquist said:

The bug isn't fixed yet. Should i still aim for 8-9 cp when they eventually fix it? I guess it doesn't matter afterwards since the eviscerates will be the same with 5+ cps. So the 6-10 cp's from Anticipation will be the "fit another shadowstrike in the dance"-combopoints, correct me if I'm wrong.

Yeah when they eventually fix it they just guarantee you'll have more points available when / if you need them, and give you comfortable room to deal with overflow. 

In lots of raid encounters you'd generally use it to make sure you get instant Nightblades up on adds, or high burst damage on squishy priority targets - throwing 2x Evis into the new spawned add means you don't lose out (as much) to other classes that have high on-demand burst

I would expect that once 4pc goes away that DS will pull back ahead 

[Gyphon 0]

Since Niquist has them both equipped, I guess this is the right place to ask:

How good is the Synergy between CoF and Denial of the Half-Giants?

Maybe enough to make Denial one of the two BiS Legendaries with CoF equipped?

Is it then even worth hunting for Soul Shadows Relics to increase the duration of Shadow

Blades?

[Carrn 284]

2 hours ago, Gyphon said:

Since Niquist has them both equipped, I guess this is the right place to ask:

How good is the Synergy between CoF and Denial of the Half-Giants?

Maybe enough to make Denial one of the two BiS Legendaries with CoF equipped?

Is it then even worth hunting for Soul Shadows Relics to increase the duration of Shadow

Blades?

Shadow Blades relics are not your best relics unless you have the legendary Bracers AND Boots, and even then they still come second to Energetic Stabbing.

For legendaries themselves, the top 4 are generally the same - shoulder, boots, bracers, and ring. They're all pretty close in value, with the shoulders and boots a little ahead of the other two. CoF probably helps boost the bracers by a bit, but I'm not sure it's enough to definitely call them BiS. So long as you have 2 of those 4, you're in a very good spot.

[Gyphon 0]

Good to know, thanks for the info and your quick response.

[Bunbohue 2]

Would you say Shadow Blades relics are better than evis and nightblade relics when you have both bracers and boots? If so fml, I downgraded from a 900 shadow blades relic to a 890 evis one.

[Niquist 0]

I think Evis/NB relicts are still better, even if, you wouldnt notice the difference,... so stay with it :)

Edited March 2, 2017 by Niquist

[Carrn 284]

On 01/03/2017 at 2:54 PM, Bunbohue said:

Would you say Shadow Blades relics are better than evis and nightblade relics when you have both bracers and boots? If so fml, I downgraded from a 900 shadow blades relic to a 890 evis one.

Yeah that is what I said above. Energetic stabbing is still your best, but otherwise Shadow Blades are 2nd best.

On 02/03/2017 at 9:07 PM, Niquist said:

I think Evis/NB relicts are still better, even if, you wouldnt notice the difference,... so stay with it :)

They aren't, not when you have Bracers and Boots