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Heroes of the Storm Maiev

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This thread is for comments about our Maiev build guide for Heroes of the Storm.

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Oxygen, this choice of Bonds of JusticeBonds of Justice over Naisha's MementoNaisha's Memento makes little sense to me. Good players will always stay within the range of the ability, and even without this extra pull damage increase, people will still always stay within the radius to avoid being pulled. Also the cleave damage increase is not even close to the bouncing attack that Naisha's MementoNaisha's Memento yields. Naisha's MementoNaisha's Memento is also not too difficult to recharge and is a thousand times more devastating to an enemy formation than Bonds of JusticeBonds of Justice could possibly be. Furthermore, it is not even a popular talent. I don't know anybody that would possibly pick Bonds of JusticeBonds of Justice over Naisha's MementoNaisha's Memento. When these guides are updated, if this is truly what you think, I would like to hear exactly why you think Bonds of JusticeBonds of Justice is a superior talent, especially at higher levels of play, mainly because on PTR there is rarely such a thing as "high levels of play".

Edit: I was probably a bit harsh here, I'm sorry.

Edited by Maxkitty

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8 hours ago, Maxkitty said:

@Oxygen, this choice of Bonds of JusticeBonds of Justice over Naisha's MementoNaisha's Memento makes little sense to me. Good players will always stay within the range of the ability, and even without this extra pull damage increase, people will still always stay within the radius to avoid being pulled. Also the cleave damage increase is not even close to the bouncing attack that Naisha's MementoNaisha's Memento yields. Naisha's MementoNaisha's Memento is also not too difficult to recharge and is a thousand times more devastating to an enemy formation than Bonds of JusticeBonds of Justice could possibly be. Furthermore, it is not even a popular talent. I don't know anybody that would possibly pick Bonds of JusticeBonds of Justice over Naisha's MementoNaisha's Memento. When these guides are updated, if this is truly what you think, I would like to hear exactly why you think Bonds of JusticeBonds of Justice is a superior talent, especially at higher levels of play, mainly because on PTR there is rarely such a thing as "high levels of play".

I would argue for Bonds of Justice over Naisha's Memento just for the lack of any requirement to reset the cooldown. You can't always guarantee there's going to be 2 heroes near enough to each other to reset Naisha's Memento quickly and in a 1v1 it's impossible. Plus you're getting no benefit from the ability in a 1v1 because it only increases damage to bounce targets, not the target you're actually attacking. Bonds of Justice has no such requirement and a skillful player won't wait for enemies to walk outside the range to trigger the pull, they'll use Spirit of Vengeance's teleport to force it to happen if that's what they want. It also gets a lot easier to force the pull at higher levels because you can get movement speed increases from other talents. It's also sometimes impossible to avoid being pulled by the tether if you get CC'd by another player.

Your argument about Naisha's Memento providing superior dps is flawed as well because the bounces don't favor heroes, they just go for the next nearest target. If you're fighting in a lane with minions, mercs, or even structures nearby all that bonus damage may not help you win the fight at all because it could be getting soaked up by non-hero targets.

There's also the argument that Bonds of Justice increases ability and physical damage while Naisha's Memento only increase physical damage, which makes Bonds of Justice clearly superior against targets with access to Block and Physical Armor talents or passives and against enemies that can Blind you or have Dodge talents/abilities. Bonds of Justice also has no cap to the amount of bonus damage and the quest rewards are extremely simple to earn, just attack a nearby minion, merc, or structure when you use the ability and any heroes tethered will count as secondary targets.

Edited by Lorebot

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23 minutes ago, Lorebot said:

I would argue for Bonds of Justice over Naisha's Memento just for the lack of any requirement to reset the cooldown. You can't always guarantee there's going to be 2 heroes near enough to each other to reset Naisha's Memento quickly and in a 1v1 it's impossible. Plus you're getting no benefit from the ability in a 1v1 because it only increases damage to bounce targets, not the target you're actually attacking. Bonds of Justice has no such requirement and a skillful player won't wait for enemies to walk outside the range to trigger the pull, they'll use Spirit of Vengeance's teleport to force it to happen if that's what they want. It also gets a lot easier to force the pull at higher levels because you can get movement speed increases from other talents. It's also sometimes impossible to avoid being pulled by the tether if you get CC'd by another player.

Your argument about Naisha's Memento providing superior dps is flawed as well because the bounces don't favor heroes, they just go for the next nearest target. If you're fighting in a lane with minions, mercs, or even structures nearby all that bonus damage may not help you win the fight at all because it could be getting soaked up by non-hero targets.

There's also the argument that Bonds of Justice increases ability and physical damage while Naisha's Memento only increase physical damage, which makes Bonds of Justice clearly superior against targets with access to Block and Physical Armor talents or passives and against enemies that can Blind you or have Dodge talents/abilities. Bonds of Justice also has no cap to the amount of bonus damage and the quest rewards are extremely simple to earn, just attack a nearby minion, merc, or structure when you use the ability and any heroes tethered will count as secondary targets.

This makes sense. I guess it remains to be seen which one is both the more popular and more superior choice. I'd think Naisha's would be slightly better considering that in a teamfight it isn't that hard to hit 2 heroes with Q, but I see your point and do agree that they are both good choices. 

I'd only think Naisha's would be great because it synergises very well with the other AA talents that increase your basic attack damage. It really depends though, considering that sometimes it's not always about which one does more damage, instead it's often about which one does more to turn a teamfight in your favour. Again, that remains in question. I'd like to think both of these points are valid until then.

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15 minutes ago, Maxkitty said:

This makes sense. I guess it remains to be seen which one is both the more popular and more superior choice. I'd think Naisha's would be slightly better considering that in a teamfight it isn't that hard to hit 2 heroes with Q, but I see your point and do agree that they are both good choices. 

I'd only think Naisha's would be great because it synergises very well with the other AA talents that increase your basic attack damage. It really depends though, considering that sometimes it's not always about which one does more damage, instead it's often about which one does more to turn a teamfight in your favour. Again, that remains in question. I'd like to think both of these points are valid until then.

It's very composition and map dependent.

As long as the enemy team can't mitigate your AA damage, you can guarantee lots of team fights outside of lanes, and you can maximize uptime on Naisha's Memento it's probably the superior choice.

If the enemy team has a good amount of physical damage mitigation in general or there's a specific target with mitigation that you're going to need to primary, if you'll be fighting in lanes, or expect a lot of 1v1 dueling then Bonds of Justice is likely the better pick.

There's also the fact that Bonds of Justice is a huge power spike in the early game if you can get 5 tethers quickly. 150 bonus damage on an ability that does 110 damage as a base is a huge spike early on and can lead to some early snowballing if used properly.

Edited by Lorebot

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37 minutes ago, Lorebot said:

It's very composition and map dependent.

As long as the enemy team can't mitigate your AA damage, you can guarantee lots of team fights outside of lanes, and you can maximize uptime on Naisha's Memento it's probably the superior choice.

If the enemy team has a good amount of physical damage mitigation in general or there's a specific target with mitigation that you're going to need to primary, if you'll be fighting in lanes, or expect a lot of 1v1 dueling then Bonds of Justice is likely the better pick.

There's also the fact that Bonds of Justice is a huge power spike in the early game if you can get 5 tethers quickly. 150 bonus damage on an ability that does 110 damage as a base is a huge spike early on and can lead to some early snowballing if used properly.

It’s also notable that Naisha’s is extremely valuable going into the late game when team fights are very frequent and important. That doesn’t mean Bonds of Justice isn’t, but I think like you said, it’s more suited for an early game advantage. 

It really all depends. I do disagree that Naisha’s is listed as situational on this talent guide though. In my opinion they are both very viable options that have different advantages.

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Imho, Naisha's MementoNaisha's Memento is a VERY powerful talent overall; the ability for it to reset makes it even more deadly. I think whatever build you're going for it should alwatys be taken, being available that early, I think it will be moved to later tier.

As for it supposedly being "unreliable", if you can take advantage of the positioning of the target you want the bonus damage to hit, then.. voila! And most often than not, you should.

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1 hour ago, SteveFrost said:

Imho, Naisha's MementoNaisha's Memento is a VERY powerful talent overall; the ability for it to reset makes it even more deadly. I think whatever build you're going for it should alwatys be taken, being available that early, I think it will be moved to later tier.

As for it supposedly being "unreliable", if you can take advantage of the positioning of the target you want the bonus damage to hit, then.. voila! And most often than not, you should.

imo it's biggest drawback is that you can't control where the bonus damage goes, and it provides no bonus damage on the target you're actually hitting. It's a solid talent, but it has flaws that make it less useful for really high level play.

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1 hour ago, Lorebot said:

imo it's biggest drawback is that you can't control where the bonus damage goes, and it provides no bonus damage on the target you're actually hitting. It's a solid talent, but it has flaws that make it less useful for really high level play.

Generally when enemies are in a team fight, it can often bounce. Even though it doesn’t provide a damage increase to your primary target, it adds a lot of pressure to the enemy team’s positioning and can synergize very well with other physical damage talents. 

It’s like Cassia’s talent at level 1, that also bounces to enemies. It’s great just like that talent, but must be refreshed with your Q. Refreshing it isn’t too hard to do though, so you should be able to use it in most teamfights. Even though it might not prioritize heroes, it is still incredible in teamfights and skirmishes.

Bonds of Justice is usable, but it just feels a little lackluster in comparison to Naisha’s. At high levels of play there isn’t a huge disadvantage of taking Naisha’s. Even with Cassia high level players take that bounce talent. It’s really going to depend on what is more popular and used, but I personally think Naisha’s is too good to pass up.

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23 hours ago, Valhalen said:

Does anyone know if the bouncing damage from Naisha's MementoNaisha's Memento affects the refreshing of Shadow ArmorShadow Armor? @Oxygen, my dude?

I don't think it's really relevant, even if they did (which I didn't test); the bounces are really fast, and would only add like, .15 seconds of "refresh".

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14 minutes ago, Oxygen said:

I don't think it's really relevant, even if they did (which I didn't test); the bounces are really fast, and would only add like, .15 seconds of "refresh".

I think it's a great talent, more than just situational imo. Speaking of talents do you know when the guide will be updated? I don't mean to rush you at all but I'm just very curious because when I get on later today the first thing I'm doing is buying her and playing her all day long.

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I'm thinking of a ruin-your-opponents-gaming-experince comp, with Maiev, Chromie, Zeratul, Medivh and Anubarak.

They can't move, but they can't die either...

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Does anyone know if heroes hit by the physical damage component of lvl4 Blade Dance count towards hitting multiple heroes with Fan of Knives if they're not hit by the skill itself? It would make resetting Naisha's Memento or triggering the host of other talents that require you to hit 2 heroes with Fan of Knives be much easier against enemies that position well. You could blink next to 1 hero and then drop your Q on another, they both take damage but only one of them was in the skill shot part of the Q.

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One thing to note about Maiev with the launch patch is that her base armour was reduced to 10, but Armored AssaultArmored Assault still requires greater than 15 armour. This means that a single stack of Bladed ArmorBladed Armor will not grant Armored Assault's damage bonus; this may have been an oversight by Blizz, and if it's truly how it functions ingame, I suggest not taking Bladed Armor until it is patched.

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27 minutes ago, PixieKnight said:

One thing to note about Maiev with the launch patch is that her base armour was reduced to 10, but Armored AssaultArmored Assault still requires greater than 15 armour. This means that a single stack of Bladed ArmorBladed Armor will not grant Armored Assault's damage bonus; this may have been an oversight by Blizz, and if it's truly how it functions ingame, I suggest not taking Bladed Armor until it is patched.

The tooltip for Armored Assault in the game reads 'more than 10 armor of any kind' so a single stack of Bladed Armor would trigger it.

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5 hours ago, PixieKnight said:

One thing to note about Maiev with the launch patch is that her base armour was reduced to 10, but Armored AssaultArmored Assault still requires greater than 15 armour. This means that a single stack of Bladed ArmorBladed Armor will not grant Armored Assault's damage bonus; this may have been an oversight by Blizz, and if it's truly how it functions ingame, I suggest not taking Bladed Armor until it is patched.

This was adjusted.

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Pretty fun character. Kinda tricky with so many buttons  to keep your fingers on, but it's a nice combo. Increase your armour and decrease target armour to create a damage gap. I use mostly knives and chakram. The spirit talents seem fine for additional wave clear and safe sieging though.

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Hey, I'm sure you're planning to do it, but your tooltips for Vault of the Wardens and Armored Assault have the armor value wrong since it was changed with the live patch.

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Currently holding at a 65% winrate on hotslogs. I have never seen a hero with such a high winrate. She’s undoubtedly getting nerfed soon, just hopefully not destroyed.

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9 minutes ago, Maxkitty said:

Currently holding at a 65% winrate on hotslogs. I have never seen a hero with such a high winrate. She’s undoubtedly getting nerfed soon, just hopefully not destroyed.

 

Well Garrosh saw a similar spike and, while still remaining strong enough to demand a change, fell back to less ridiculous numbers when people adjusted. She needs some enabling(not much mind you) and she's countered by blinds and burst (I love Cassia for this stuff) or, like most heroes, well timed CC before she actually gets her own setup going.

 

All in all, really good guide, I just have little concerns about clarity. I know what you mean by "charges" on the lvl 20 talents, but those are the number times you must land the requirement for it to recharge and not actual charges, might be worth considering changing that. Also the level 16 Talents classification seems odd to me with regards to the discussion you make of them. Armored Assault is said to be superior and is Recommended and then, of the other 2, one is Situational, the other not recommended but the situational one seems to be the worst one according to the discussion, I don't understand why it is so

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I would say Blade DanceBlade Dance should be considered situational cuz i doubt it will yield more dmg then Pin DownPin Down may have quest but the actual dmg increase affects your dmg every time while the other option only affects your dmg while in melee range, Maiev might be resilient for an assassin but i doubt she can just melee 3 people without getting rekt. Nurok from Team Liquid agrees. 

3I9MQ2LSX2MC1517883194048.JPG

Also pls fix your Bonds of CorruptionBonds of Corruption reasoning because it doesnt provide any burst dmg buffs. Its a physical armor debuff. Translation: Heroic Basic attacks only. No spell dmg, no burst dmg. (unless youre playing fully stacked Butcher) 

This is also a good reason to switch up Dehaka who i dont see much synergy with Cassia whos Charged StrikesCharged Strikes can deal great deal of dmg with Bonds of CorruptionBonds of Corruption and if Maiev takes Naisha's MementoNaisha's Memento you have 2 heroes basic attacking the whole team for 3 seconds with a 25% bonus dmg not to mention Ball LightningBall Lightning has synergy with Umbral BindUmbral Bind too.

Also Shadow Orb: Shadow StrikeShadow Orb: Shadow Strike can not be wasted like you say in the description unlike Bonds of CorruptionBonds of Corruption which only lowers physical armor Shadow Orb: Shadow StrikeShadow Orb: Shadow Strike lowers both spell and physical armor.

Edited by xevex

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15 minutes ago, xevex said:

I would say Blade DanceBlade Dance should be considered situational cuz i doubt it will yield more dmg then Pin DownPin Down may have quest but the actual dmg increase affects your dmg every time while the other option only affects your dmg while in melee range, Maiev might be resilient for an assassin but i doubt she can just melee 3 people without getting rekt. Nurok from Team Liquid agrees. 

3I9MQ2LSX2MC1517883194048.JPG

Also pls fix your Bonds of CorruptionBonds of Corruption reasoning because it doesnt provide any burst dmg buffs. Its a physical armor debuff. Translation: Heroic Basic attacks only. No spell dmg, no burst dmg. (unless youre playing fully stacked Butcher) 

This is also a good reason to switch up Dehaka who i dont see much synergy with Cassia whos Charged StrikesCharged Strikes can deal great deal of dmg with Bonds of CorruptionBonds of Corruption and if Maiev takes Naisha's MementoNaisha's Memento you have 2 heroes basic attacking the whole team for 3 seconds with a 25% bonus dmg not to mention Ball LightningBall Lightning has synergy with Umbral BindUmbral Bind too.

Except for the fact that it's gated behind completing a difficult quest. And just because you need to be in melee range for Blade DanceBlade Dance, it doesn't at all make it a bad talent. In fact it's great. You will generally be diving into the enemy team with Maiev along with your team and that talent allows you to take advantage of being in melee. Also remember as Maiev, it's not often that you are going to want to poke the enemy team. If anything, you want to be able to dive in instead.

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Also, @Oxygen, I'd like to hear your opinion on the current state of Maiev. What do you think about her winrate? Do you think it's high because people don't yet know how to play against her? Is it because she may be overpowered? Or is it a bit of both? 

More importantly, do you think she is a bit overpowered right now? I'm guessing she will be nerfed a bit but I'm certainly hoping it's within fair limits. And after playing her she feels very impactful. 

I would really want to hear what you think. It might help give me some more insight on her current state and where she might end up.

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