Feature request for Class Guides

8 posts in this topic

Once again, I want to congratulate Icy Veins upon becoming one of the best sources of good information for MoP. You compounded your class-guides with some of the best raid- and tanking-guides that I have seen. They break things down very simply, and allow one to pick up the important aspects of every fight quickly.


I have a feature request for the Class Guides. I've noticed that there is no one, consistent location where each of them discusses the relative value of the various 2- and 4-piece bonuses on different tiers of gear. I find myself searching through the guides in order to locate that kind of information.


I'm not sure I found any source of tier-bonus information in some guides for some specs or classes, in fact! And that kind of information can be extremely important when making gear and loot decisions. 


Therefore, would it be possible for your sages to put such information in a consistent location for every guide? Or, to add them to some guides?


This information doesn't just help my toons... it helps me to better-optimize my teammates in my raid teams. (Since, let's be honest, not everyone is as devoted to knowing their class as some of us are) And, to advise the Raid Leader (and, players) on which pieces of gear should go to whom.


~ Oni

  • Like 2

Share this post

Link to post
Share on other sites

That sounds like a very important aspect of guides to have updated! I wouldn't mind helping Damien or Vlad out if you guys need some help ;) I know a guild or two with logs that I could poke into a get a good estimate of the damage increase, theorycraft some of the %s myself, or just look them up!

  • Like 2

Share this post

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah the information is definitely there.


I think Oni is hoping for a section where it shows that information by itself, rather than under the 'Best in Slot Advice' section.  Arguably, if you're skimming through content, you could miss that I suppose.  Perhaps just highlighted a little better rather than being lumped in with the other bullets?

Share this post

Link to post
Share on other sites

I've been through the paladin ones, and there's really only information regarding the protection one, where it discusses Theck and Slootbag's opinions of the their bonuses vs tier 15 bonuses. There isn't even a mention on the ret one as it says it needs to be updated still, and the holy one just says something along the lines of "They're good, go get'em boy!"


I feel like a bit more information would benefit those who actually seek the true knowledge behind them, such as min/max players, or just people who really want to understand whats going on behind them without thinking too hard. If you take a look at the post I made on MadMonk's tier post for paladins here:




I briefly went over some math and visited a tuesday heroic farm log from my old raiding guild to get sample data. I could be more detailed and give averages, or make formulas where you input a stat that would help show how to know how useful it is based on your stats, even make a punch in your ratings formula and output average procs.

Share this post

Link to post
Share on other sites

We've already started doing that in the first section of the "Gear and BiS" pages of our class guides. What do you think of http://www.icy-veins.com/restoration-druid-wow-pve-healing-gear-loot-best-in-slot ?


There are some short asides about the set-bonuses, but a more specific discussion of their value (or, lack thereof) is what I'm seeking. In going to some guides, they tell you in a single sentence to do X,Y,Z... without talking about why. (If I wanted that kind of advice, I'd go to Noxxic. But I still don't think they get it right on some things)


In looking specifically for this kind of information, on various classes I even scrolled past some of them, because they weren't identified as such. I'm pretty sure I saw some set-bonus information in other sections (other than BiS) of guides as well.


For one of my own characters? (A Shadowpriest) It is slightly longer than others in saying this:



  • The Tier 16 2-piece bonus is a definite must-have ASAP. The Tier 15 4-piece bonus is more valuable now that it was in Tier 15 (Shadowy Apparitions being redone to be missiles instead of spawned creatures), but 553 ilvl T16 2P > 543 ilvl T15 4P.




This doesn't tell me what the value is of the Tier 16 4-piece. Is it valuable at all? Or ought I to be skipping the 4-piece and just using stuff with good stats?


Anyhoo, as you can see, I am just hoping for this kind of information to be better fleshed-out.


~ Oni

Share this post

Link to post
Share on other sites

I understand now. We started adding these sections after Patch 5.4, so there still is work to do. Our reviewers are giving us the information we need and sometimes, it is hard to make them understand exactly what we want, but I think it will get better as we keep polishing things.

Twintop is using the T16 4-piece bonus, so I'm guessing you may want to go for it eventually, but this is not a priority.

Share this post

Link to post
Share on other sites

I can say from experience that using inv_gloves_plate_raiddeathknight_n_01.jpGauntlets of Cyclopean Dread for 2 piece t16 with basic green gems and no enchant was a dps GAIN over inv_gloves_plate_raiddeathknight_n_01.jpCorruption-Rotted Gauntlets fully upgraded, rare gems and str enchant.


The stipulation being that you reforge out of haste to make mastery the stacking buff as DW and then you get more stacking mastery than the higher ilvl gloves could possibly have; still its a little counter intuitive.  It was about a 3% dps(e) increase and smoothed the dps graph so its less bursty. I don't have enough logs to compare the total dps gain though.


I have no idea about 2h partially because I dont have the crit gear to test it properly but I'd be willing to do some dummy tests if you'd count those as accurate enough.




Omaric: is that you with Sky Williams?

Edited by Failhard
  • Like 1

Share this post

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Similar Content

    • By Nireas
      I usually sim my characters to get the best possible results. I enjoy the process quite a lot and since I reached 120, I wanted to find out the best build of the spec. (Note, I didn't want to find out what to play, but rather how my own build fares in comarison.) I rarely mind a 1-2% difference. If it goes above 2%, I really mind a change. What this thread is about is mainly to bring something in the attention of those who help making the class guides, especially the talent choices. To my surprise, I was awed to find out that certain talents outperform previous "Standard" choices in the endgame, probably due to the stat squish.

      The Frost go-to build (top dps) would probably be along the lines of <Icy Talons / Cold Heart - Runic Attenuation - Frozen Pulse - Gathering Storm - Breath of Sindragosa>. What I found out primarily was that after the removal of legendaries, Cold Heart severely underperforms at most given situations resulting in a major dps drop due to the low mastery. Gathering Storm also suffers from the same problem and most of the times, Frostwyrm's Fury is better overall. The biggest surprise of them all, however, was that Inexorable Assault overperforms quite a lot, and is the first reason why I made the topic. I then started simming with the above in mind and I came across a build that some would not consider on par with top dog builds around the meta, which is the use of Horn of Winter which overperforms both its other two options when using the Breath build. Talent Sim can be seen here. Another intresting thing, which I loved, was that the 2nd best build uses Obliteration as a lvl 100 talent and no other build surpassed it (Other than the first one, obviously). So, I encourage frost players out there to give their other, less common talents a try. To the class guide author(s), I believe that the two "underdog" talents will earn their spot in the class guides.

      Thank you for your time reading this.

    • By McLovin99
      Hey community!

      I've been looking to level a new class but I'm not quite sure what to level. I currently have a monk, fury warrior, and Demon Hunter. I'm looking for a class that has little to no downtime and a decent amount of survivablity, mobility, as well as an even amount of single target and multiple target damage abilities. Don't really mind if its a hybrid class because i dont might healing every once in a while.

      Thanks for your help!
    • By Valhalen
      I recommend everyone checking his channel. He does tons of video guides and analysis.
    • By Taan
      Hello everyone!

      Here is something I wanted to do for some time now. I recognized that some people complain about the prize of Hearthstone or that you can only achieve higher ranks when you pay real money. I don't want to discuss this topic here (also I totally disagree ;) ). Instead I want to give some advice how to manage your resources (so Gold and Dust) more wisely and therefore get better decks and more fun out of them.

      You may deem some of the advice pretty expected, but maybe the "strategies" I run can still inspire you to wasting less and getting more. But I will still skip the obvious: get as much gold as possible, finish the Brawl every week etc.

      Also Icy Veins (the side you are currently on) has a pretty nice Guide-Section too and I will try not to repeat the hints from there.

      Finally: the hints are mainly for the standard-format.

      1.) Know when to stop and save up.

      After purchasing something like 50+ packs you will own nearly all commons, most of the rares, some epics and a few legendaries. So you will draw mainly cards you already own from additional packs. Since drawing cards is much better than crafting them (e.g. you basically save 300 dust, when you draw an epic card you would have crafted otherwise) saving your gold up for the next expansion can be much more valuable than buying more packs for the current set. Just head into your collection from time to time and check all the cards from the set you would have bought packs from. If you realize that you mainly missing out legendaries and a few epics it could be time to stockpile your gold (since the chance of drawing a specific epic or legendary is pretty slim anyways). You should be able to have 3000 to 5000 gold at the start of the next expansion that way.

      2.) Only disenchant "useless" cards when you need the dust for a specific reason.

      Sometimes cards that are deemed useless or bad at the beginning of the meta can turn out to be quite powerful later on (e.g. Evolve before and after the release of Doppelgangster). There would be nothing more frustrating than having to craft a card you already disenchanted two sets ago.

      So be very very careful when disenchanting cards that are still legal in standard and never disenchant them only to pile up dust. You can always disenchant a card you own but never take it back.

      3.) Use placeholders and build "prototype"-decks first.

      This is a difficult one. Many people want to try out new and innovative decks. This can be quite expensive and you don't know beforehand if the deck will be any good and (most importantly) fun. Thats why it can be a good idea to test out the main functionality of the deck by replacing less important cards with similar (weaker) ones and find out that way if the deck is fun to play with.

      For example: you can play many aggressive decks in the past without (the old) Patches the Pirate by replacing him and the "pirate-package" with other low cost cards. It may be way weaker but the main structure of the deck often stays the same. Other examples would be Cubelock without N'Zoth, the Corruptor or Spell-Hunter without Rhok'delar.

      4.) Wait for the meta to settle.

      It is pretty obvious. Don't get carried away by the hype of a new set and craft everything that people call powerful. Cards can quickly fall out of relevance. Not only because they are worse than people thought, but often because the meta turns out to be unfitting for the respective deck. Taunt-Warrior is an example for this. Both Fire Plume's Heart and the Hunter-Quest were hyped, but fell out of relevance rather quickly.

      5.) try to craft cards with a wider use first.

      Some cards can only be played in one specific deck and it is pretty obvious from the first spoilers onward that they are. Twin Emperor Vek'lor or basically all the Quests are perfect examples. When you don't know what to play and/or you want to play a bigger variety of decks it can be a good idea to spend your dust on cards that are playable in a bigger range of decks and classes. Obviously neutral cards fit this idea more often.

      Examples are: N'Zoth, the Corruptor for all sorts of Deathrattle-Decks, Kazakus for every type of Highlander-Deck, Alexstrasza or Leeroy Jenkins for combo- or OTK-decks and so on.


      I play Hearthstone regular since "goblin vs gnomes" and was able to play multiple competitive decks with multiple classes without buying a single pack for real money. But I always had to be very stingy how I spend my resources and I believe that other people have to be too, to get high on the ladder while still having fun and trying out new decks.

      Do you have any additional advices how to get more out of your hard earned gold?

    • By Gudmo
      Good day
      I've recently restarted my D3 experience and gone through the last 2 seasons. 
      As many players can connect to I'm not entirely sure what items to keep and which not to.
      I first stacked and compared any legendaries but as the ancient items came along I mostly threw out the normal legendaries.
      Now as Primals are starting to pop up I of course keep all of those, and needless to say I keep best of any unique set item.
      This however is also too much for my meger 8 tabs.
      Is there a guide out there designed to illuminate players on what items to keep (Most useful) and which to throw away (Most useless) ?
      Some items are niche I assume, and some are cross-class useful. Some are only useful for one class and one build.
      But I want most to know what items are utterly and completely useless no matter their rarity.
      I've reviewed this excellent guide by Damien - https://www.icy-veins.com/d3/legendary-item-salvage-guide
      And it does cover alot of what I am looking for but It actually bothers me to see the Set items there as I'd think their mostly a no brainer (At least the class specific ones) and I also agree with many of the comments that many item's are "Cube Only" and thus no need to hoard them.
      Would love to see such a Hoarder's Guide to Diablo 3