Krushinator

Guaranteeing your Raid Spot : Rogue Play Beyond DPS

9 posts in this topic

Check the bottom for the update log.

 

The purpose of this post is to outline what I think makes a rogue valuable in a raid, and to tell you the things that kept me my guaranteed raid spot for so long. 99% of the rogues passing through this forum are here for advice on how to increase their DPS, but in my eyes this is only 50% of the equation. The other 50% is how much damage you take. As a raider since Tier 7, the number of bosses that my guild wiped on due to enrage with a fully alive group is absolutely dwarfed by the number of wipes caused by too many preventable mid-fight deaths. When it came time to bench underperformers, it wasn't the low DPS that got sat, it was the ones that took the most avoidable damage and died the most. Managing damage taken and quickly mastering boss mechanics is how you keep your raid spot.

 

Over the years I unconsciously developed a 3 step system for progressing through and mastering a raid boss, and 1.5 years ago I made a generalized post on Krush's Kavern detailing the system. This will be the latest update, with a focus on rogues. One thing to keep in mind is that these steps are meant to build on each other; do not move to the next step of progression until you have mastered the current step. If you jump around the steps you will not be getting the most out of the system and may not end up in a better place than you started.

 

There's one major assumption to keep in mind before we go on. I am assuming that anyone looking to follow this system is already familiar with the best rotation and damage priorities of the spec they are playing. You should be able to perform your damage rotation along with cooldowns as well as possible on a target dummy.

 

Step 1 is to learn the nature, timing and order of the boss mechanics, along with your role in the fight. Part of this step is doing pre-fight research on the boss, and the other part is getting into the raid and experiencing it for yourself. You need to determine which raid mechanics are unavoidable, avoidable, trivial, raid-wiping, irrelevant for rogues, or ideal for you to handle. During this step you are learning how to position yourself in the fight to properly perform the strategy that your raid leader has implemented. You are also learning how to best use your movement cooldowns to best manage the boss mechanics. 

-

Shadowstep is a great tool for last-second movement and avoidance; Sprint is useful as well. One facet of Shadowstep that rogues often forget is that you can use it on friendly targets. So, if there is a mechanic that will cause you to stack with others somewhere that isn't right next to the boss, you can use Shadowstep on someone already in the stack to get there.

-

You have mastered this step once you are regularly avoiding all fully avoidable damage without the use of damage mitigation like Cloak of Shadows, and you are using Shadowstep and Sprint as much as needed to move around the room.

 

 

Step 2 is to structure your damage cooldowns effectively around your role and the boss mechanics, as well as maximize your effective DPS uptime. Now that you are comfortable with the movement of the fight, it's time to start figuring out how to maximize your DPS. What will more than likely happen to you on this step is you'll start trying different timings and structures for your damage cooldowns, and suddenly you'll start dying to mechanics you were avoiding before. Take an attempt or two to further ingrain the movement of the fight, and then start working with your cooldowns again. Remember what I said at the top of the post; do not attempt to master a next step without mastering the previous one.

-

At this step you'll not only be working with your own cooldowns to make sure you get full DPS uptime during them, but you'll be working with other major raid cooldowns like Heroism/Bloodlust. If your raid likes to blow that cooldown at a certain point, you'll want to try to avoid layering more haste cooldowns on top of it. Also at this step you will be trying to maximize your uptime on effective targets. This means working on moving off your current target to either another or a place on the ground at the best time. If you need to get to a certain spot on the floor, you'll want to practice getting there as late as possible without missing. If you need to switch to an add that has to die immediately, you'll want to practice leaving your current target with a strong DoT, a high Slice and Dice timer and some extra energy and/or combo points to switch over and burst the add down.

-

You have mastered this step once you are getting as much effective damage uptime as you can, especially on damage cooldowns.

 

 

Step 3 is to minimize your damage taken. You are already partly doing this by dodging the avoidable boss mechanics, but now it's time to focus on mitigating the unavoidable damage. You don't need to start using Recuperate or anything so hurtful to DPS, but you need to work Cloak of ShadowsFeint and possibly Evasion into your play. 

-

Cloak of Shadows you want to be available for the biggest incoming spell damage attack whenever possible. If you are able to find times to use it on other attacks and still have it available for the big attack, that's a good thing. If you are on a fight where the biggest incoming damage spike is physical damage, you will want to use Glyph of Cloak of Shadows to compensate. 

-

Feint is an amazing ability for rogues, and I can't say enough good things about it. When glyphed and talented (which I highly recommend), you mitigate 30% of all damage taken (65% if the damage is AoE) for 7 seconds at the cost of 20 energy. You don't even need to be in melee range of an enemy to cast it anymore. If you are able to weave Feint into your rotation at the proper times during a boss fight, your healers are going to notice, and your raid leader is going to notice. Feint is what keeps rogues alive to the bitter end on narrow kills and wipes. 

-

Evasion won't do a lot for you unless you pull aggro on something, but you should still have it at the ready in case things go awry.

 

 

This plan will work for you commit to it and use it as intended. This will not fix all of your problems in one night, but it will teach you how to prepare and behave like a top tier rogue. Once you have this process fully integrated into your raiding style, you are ready to move on to the theorycrafting discussion on exact spec, reforge, rotation, gear and cooldown choices per boss.

 

 

2/11: Horcored makes a good point about Smoke Bomb. Use of this ability will mostly be explored in Step 3, however raid mechanics and raid leader instruction may cause you to work out Smoke Bomb timings and best situations in Step 1.I will incorporate it into the main article later this week.

 

This is alot of useful information, but you seem to have forgotten to mention here that rouge bring a good raidwide defensive Cooldown. I dont remember if this came in at launch of MoP or in a later patch, but as alot of rogues dont know is that smokebomb now reduces dmg taken by anyone standing in it by 20% for its duration, which is really helpful on almost any fight. In my raiding experience, rogues still think that its only a pvp talent, but thats not the case anymore.

 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very good article, Krush.

 

+1 for Glyph of Cloak of Shadows and the Elusiveness talent

 

Staying alive is a huge part of maximising DPS, and a lot of that comes from raid awareness.

 

Raid experience with the same team, is a big help in learning fights, too. Learning what you need to do and what you can safely ignore (because others are dealing with it), as well as learning to work with the team, and getting used to the flow of fights will all take time, but it should improve your ability to survive and keep maximum uptime on bosses.

 

Also, bear in mind that rogues are one of the least played classes at max level, so many raid leaders may not be fully aware of your spells and abilities. Don't be afraid to mention something that may be useful if it seems to have been overlooked.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is alot of useful information, but you seem to have forgotten to mention here that rouge bring a good raidwide defensive Cooldown. I dont remember if this came in at launch of MoP or in a later patch, but as alot of rogues dont know is that smokebomb now reduces dmg taken by anyone standing in it by 20% for its duration, which is really helpful on almost any fight. In my raiding experience, rogues still think that its only a pvp talent, but thats not the case anymore.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Smoke bomb is a Heroic Thok cooldown you mean :P

 

Our first kill would've been impossible without it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The change to smoke bomb was brought in at patch 5.2

 

I'd think that a big part of playing any class is knowing your spellbook, including any changes that are relevant to you. Similarly, keeping up with changes to raids, and knowing how they affect your role is good practice.

 

Patch notes are well laid out, so it shouldn't be difficult to keep up to date with hotfixes and changes to spells.

 

I would expect most rogues, or any class, (certainly those who are considering progressive raiding) to know about their class and be aware of changes to their abilities. But, as I mentioned above, some raid leaders may not know about your class quite so well, especially with changes happening occasionally, so it's useful to let them know what you can use to help if they seem to be overlooking certain spells.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ye, i thought it was 5.2 but i was little unsure. Also, true what u say that when ur playing a class into raiding u should know its spellbook, as i am not playing rogue myself i'm little unsure when this came in. All i know is that its also a Raid leaders duty to make sure ur raiders use their raid cds at given points. This is why i brought up the smoke bomb scenario, as one night i was taking the role of leading the raid since our RL was away for that night and we had a rogue take his spot. When i called for smoke bomb, he had no clue why and didnt even have it on his bars =P Believe me, we'll never let him forget that =D

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't forget about TotT, 15% damage on someone and/or if you're having tank aggro problems. (:

 

Just be careful to not screw up even more that aggro. (Mage + extra aggro... Lol)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You make a good point, lipsinch, however I would categorize TotT as more rotational knowledge and less boss knowledge. I will use TotT on the starting tank on the first pull, but after that it shouldn't be a problem unless there are periods of extended tank down time or critical target switches. By critical target switches I mean you must go full out on a target the moment it becomes targettable; in that situation you can avoid some risk by using TotT on the appropriate tank.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The rogue is a very under-rated class, and one of the most hated classes ingame. This infamy is mainly due to the over-power ambush (almost) 1 shot ambush in vanilla or how easily we could stun lock others in PvP (not that easy on latest xpacks). This infamy has transported to PvE, and as said before here, since it's very uncommon at end game compared to the other classes so the changes are unknown by many, changes such as the passive ability_rogue_disembowel.jpgSwiftblade's Cunning, the defensive changes of ability_rogue_smoke.jpgSmoke Bomb, especially if you glyph it for an extra 2sec duration which is very helpful in numerous fights (not only on Thok like it was mentioned above). And because the majority of rogues love to troll PvP, and stick to PvP due to the lack of interest of the class in PvE.

 

Also, what makes rogues indispensable to raids is the survivability in raids. Rogues can eat/avoid a lot of damage, especially if you have AoC which affects the CD on spell_shadow_nethercloak.jpgCloak of Shadows which in my eyes is a mechanic skipper. In many progression fights, heroic or normal, I'm almost always the last one to die due to the ability to stay alive. Feint (+ elusiveness), CoS, Combat Readiness, Evasion, Smoke Bomb, Recupe, Vanish... That says a lot for a class, if well played you can not only be at the bottom of the list on damage taken, but also be on top of the dps meters since we burst so much with little effort.

 

Another thing to add is the mobility of this class, whatever the spec now thanks to Shadowstep being a class talent point, rather than a sub spec talent like it was pre-MoP. We have sprint, with the ability to refresh it with prep (and some defensive cooldowns refreshed with it) which is damn useful in fights. The ease how rogues move around the battlefield in an encounter is unmatched with any other class due to the lack of sacrificing dps in the process. This is extremely helpful not only to be at the right place at the right time, but can also be used as a helping tool for tanks if you combine your mobility with TotT. I was going to list the encounters I found to benefit more with such mobility but I found myself writing down the majority of the encounters, so no use really.

 

Conclusion: Rogue has been changed from a selfish class to a team-player, versatile DPS with tank-like features regarding to survivability. Not many has realized this or ignore it due to the hate that's been haunted rogues since the vanilla days. Know your class and fights and you'll be sure to guarantee your spot. It will be hard for a RL to decide to remove you if you're able to burst +600k dps, maintaining +300k dps while surviving throughout the whole fight.

Edited by Blackshade
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Similar Content

    • By Ahdra2154
      We're a guild looking for people who want to have a great time, hang out with each other, laugh and have fun while killing stuff in raids! 

      Guild Name: RaidCat
      Faction: Alliance
      Realm (EU): Silvermoon
      Realm Type: PVE
      Realm Timezone: CEST
      Progression: 8/11 HC Antorus
      Raid Times: 19:30st - 22:00st
      Raid Schedule: Friday and Monday (additional raids on Wednesday for alts, mythic etc)
      Openings: Range DPS (help us knock those melee off the top of the meters!)

      We raid twice a week in the evenings with optional extra runs appearing as requested. 
      Currently we also raid on Wednesdays (normal) to help gear up mains and alts.
      As our raid roster increases and  heroic progress continues Wednesday evening will likely become a mythic progression night. However mythic is not our end goal or focus, but rather something we try to make extra time for. Social members also welcome!

      Looking for: Range DPS (warlock, mage, hunter, shadow priest, hunter) Other applications considered.

      We do everything from Transmog runs, PVP, Mythic+ and whatever else you can think of, with our main focus on raiding.

      We are aiming for a relaxed yet skilled raiding environment where people can fill in for each other, not having to worry about always attending since people can fill in for you, focusing on having fun and improving ourselves with each kill.

      We do care about people following tactics and knowing what they're doing (so do your homework or ask for help!) so we may actually get some stuff done as well, that's why we're looking mainly for experienced raiders that want a more flexible environment (if you are new to raiding you are still welcome)

      We use Discord and you are welcome to join and hang out before deciding to move over.

      Officers: Maxilloss & Ahdra#2154
    • By FoxShine
      Hello! This is Fox from Velocity. We're a daytime Mythic raiding guild on Sargeras looking to enhance our roster with skilled and reliable players.
      The goal of Velocity is to take down mythic bosses and have fun doing it. We believe the two are not mutually exclusive! We’re searching for like-minded players who are interested in playing at a high level in a laid-back environment. If you can joke around, then focus up when you need to; this is the guild for you. 
      Our core is composed of veteran raiders. Some of us have been playing together for years, and some of us are new friends. We have a solid core
      for our dream team – we’re just searching for a few more to help round it out! 
        [A] <Velocity> 2/11M, 11/11H – (5/9M 7/10M 7/7M)

      Raid Times: 10am-1pm CST | Tues/Wed/Thurs 
        Recruitment Needs
      Ranged DPS! – Shadow Priest, Warlock, Ele Shaman, Mage, Boomkin
      Healers! - The Flexier the better. Priest, Disc/Holy. Pally or Monk
      Tank – Tank with DPS offspec, who may want to tank fulltime. Bear / Monk
      Melee – Enh Shaman, Sub Rogue, Warrior, Monk - other (low priority)
      Note: We are primarily looking for ranged DPS, but we will consider any good player.



      Requirements
      Players with some mythic raiding experienced is preferred. Looking for players that are geared and ready to jump into mythic content straight away or very soon. 


      Attendance
      We are a guild of dedicated and ambitious players. Commitment to our raid times is mandatory. We’re interested in consistent players who are realistic and honest about their day-to-day schedule. Raiders are required to communicate any tardiness or absences via a Discord channel or through tells with an officer. Schedules change, things come up and real life always comes first. All we ask for is a heads up!


      Trial Period
      Three weeks from start date or 9 consecutive days demonstrating attendance and play. Start date begins on the 1st raid day you are present.



      What you can Expect from us:
      Dedicated leadership, communication, well defined goals, and a sense of community. Apart from raiding we also run M+ with each other every week. 


      What we expect from you:
      90% Attendance. Players who can survive and react to mechanics while excelling at their role of damage or healing. Many players struggle to do one, we are looking for both. Apart from this, just be a friendly player who’s always striving to improve. It might also be a good idea to bring a sense of humor.



      If we sound like a good fit, let us know! Leave a reply here or send us a tell on BNET/Discord. Or you can go old school and send in-game mail to Starby-Sargeras or Foxshine-Sargeras! Thanks for checking us out and we hope to see you in gchat soon. =)



      BNET
      Fox#1713 (GM)
      Peach#1423 (Officer)
      Ezmaya#1410 (Officer)

      Discord
      Fox#7009
      Starby#8682
    • By MrPrince3rd
      Non Offensive Innuendo is currently a heroic guild that is wanting to go mythic.
      Server: Ner'zhul, Frostmane, Tortheldrin
      Progression: 9/9N 9/9H 11/11N 11/11H
      What we need: DPS, preferably with off-spec tank or heals
      What we are looking for: Light hearted, good humored, responsible and reliable players, who can consistently make raid days and are interested in doing things together as a guild, such as, PVP, mythic+, mog runs, and or playing other games, hanging out in discord being social.
      Communication:
      We use discord, feel free to join for any questions or interviews. https://discord.gg/UEEnfCp
      Atmosphere:
      We are like a family, we joke and mess with each other all the time, we are laid back and not super strict, but we still want to kill bosses at a resonable pace.
      Expectations:
      You are expected to show up on time, and if you can't let someone know ahead of time. You are also expected to do the highest required mythic+ key to ensure that your gear stays up to date, if you require help doing this let people in the guild know.
      Addons:
      We use EPGP and RCLootCouncil for loot, and Exorsus Raid Tools for notes
      Consumables: Free for all raiders
      Raid Times:
      Wednesday, Friday, and Monday 8:30-11:30PM CST
      Please fill out this application to apply: http://www.guilded.gg/#!AdrRp1Ydly
      Contact Info:
      BilboBaggins#1406
    • By Baes
      Hello fellow raiders!   Stormguard is looking for more friends to have fun with us in our fabulous raids! =) Please check up the newest update below, on what we are looking for =)   Who WE are We are Stormguard - a Mythic, semi-hardcore raiding guild that once upon a time moved from Steamwheedle Cartel to Argent Dawn in search of new friends and adventures. We have years of raiding experience and a great atmosphere in our raids that we value a lot, successfully maintain and are very proud of. We appreciate a good joke, friendly banter and even a good pun! We do not, however, tolerate insults, enraging or any display of aggression - if it will occur- it can earn you a boot from the guild.    Who YOU are You are a gentleman,a lady or a cat, who is mature, has raiding experience, polite and has a good attitude. You are not a drama queen/king/cat, whiner or a grumpy dwarf. You are researching your class's tips and tricks and are always up to date with news and changes. You come prepared, repaired and bearing a good joke for the night and are able to listen/talk using our voice communications. Patience and a good sense of humor are crucial!   Since we reside on an RP server, some of our members are RPers and some are not - which means you are not obligated to RP but you may not disturb or insult in any way others that do so. You shall always remember that you represent our guild when you are out in the wilderness or in the cities and shall behave accordingly.     What our GOALS are Stormguards ultimate goal is to clear each current content tier on mythic difficulty while maintaining a good and friendly atmosphere. We raid 3 times per week: Wednesday, Thursday and Monday evenings from 20.00 to 23.00 server time. We do not normally extend over the raid-end time, unless it is the last encounter and it is agreed with all the raid members. We require our members to attend minimum of 85% of the raids.     For SOCIAL members: We are always welcoming social members. To fulfill social member requirements you actually have to be social! Social members are the soul of the guild and we value them as much as our raiders.   How you can FIND us: nakrul#1126
      daniel#22894 Please visit and apply at our guild page: http://stormguard.openlogix.se Please register with your ingame character name for faster approval.
    • By FoxShine
      /