trance

AoE/Single Target damage on HC Garrosh

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Hey guys, recently I've been receiving whispers from one of our tanks and a guild officer to do less AoE on garrosh hc. last night they decided to blame me for not doing the same single target damage on Garrosh as the other locks and I was advised to ask them "to solve" "the issue", after checking the logs myself I decided to come here instead.

 

Armory:

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/sylvanas/Tranc%C3%A9/simple

 

 

Here's the log for the fight:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/7f4qip96mms0q4se/sum/damageDone/?s=7245&e=7723

After checking the logs I noticed : they dont ward, dont cast havoc as much as I do, minimal immolate uptimes, trinkets and CDs out of sync etc. My question, is the blaming justified here? Should I stop DoTing weapons havoc CB/Sbing from adds/weapons?

 

 

http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/eu/sylvanas/Reborn+Unity/rating.tier16_25
Considering the iLvL of the raid members, I seem to be the least geared one [573 ilvl] the rest are wearing almost full hc gear. Are they really performing flawless? or at least better than me? Aren't warlocks supposed to AoE down the adds? Check out the  the damage on weapons, rider, etc.
 

 

here's this reset's log for the other bosses, If there's anything else that I'm doing wrong please let me know:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/0hw50xb8wujdg0no/

Edited by trance

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I can't read Worldoflogs at work - if you have it in Warcraftlog forms, I can inspect it.

 

It's very easy to get caught up in the jobs of Garrosh.  There is a balance to the fight to do enough AoE while doing enough single target damage to push the phase at the appropriate time.  You can actually do too much damage and short change people on CDs going into the transition.  With that said, it should be on your raid leader to assess, address, and assign DPS to do specific jobs to get past barriers.  Handing the issue off to you and telling you to fix it is a pretty shitty way of fixing a raid wide problem.

 

In regards to defensive mitigation and Havoc, you're just projecting frustrations at being blamed and trying to find validation in whether or not you're playing correctly.  When it comes down to it, you have a job to do.  If you're alive and the boss is dead, you did your job no matter how you got there.  Getting to the point where the boss is dead is the journey and you're challenged with being the best you can be.  Focus on the issue at hand - doing enough damage to Garrosh - instead of focusing on non-essential things like other bosses and defensive mitigation.

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Hey guys, recently I've been receiving whispers from one of our tanks and a guild officer to do less AoE on garrosh hc. last night they decided to blame me for not doing the same single target damage on Garrosh as the other locks and I was advised to ask them "to solve" "the issue", after checking the logs myself I decided to come here instead.

 

 

I speed looked at the logs because, well I just don't need to see them to tell you what you're doing wrong.

 

#1 you're doing 26mil damge to the boss LESS then the top warlock on pull #12. Unless you're doing a job that he isn't doing, such as going out to kill the eng, you have no reason for doing that much less.

 

 

After checking the logs I noticed : they dont ward, dont cast havoc as much as I do, minimal immolate uptimes, trinkets and CDs out of sync etc. My question, is the blaming justified here? Should I stop DoTing weapons havoc CB/Sbing from adds/weapons?

 

#2 Immolate uptimes will lie on this fight, I commonly let my Immo drop because I'm doing something else, running in/out, killing an add, focusing on staying alive, etc. I hate looking at trinkets/CDs on WoL so...I'll let some other masochist do that for you. 

 

#3 You shouldn't be DoTing the weapons to start with. There is really no reason for it. Nor should you be using Havoc with CB or SB on them. Unless you're using some really weird strat.

 

I *assume* you're using roughly the same strat that every 25m uses, put the weapons on the outside of the room, ignore them, kill the boss, kite or kill the adds depending on if you have a BrM monk, GG loot boss. 

 

With that strat you need VERY little damage on the weapons, my raid used none. We had two warlocks and we just used them for embers, never putting any work in to killing them. Shrinking them down a little was just icing.

 

As such, you should be using weapons to Havoc off of with Incinerate for ember generation. No DoTs, no CBs, no SB - unless you're spending ONE burn to gain TWO embers. If you LOSE embers using SB on the weapon, you're doing it wrong.

 

 

Considering the iLvL of the raid members, I seem to be the least geared one [573 ilvl] the rest are wearing almost full hc gear. Are they really performing flawless? or at least better than me? Aren't warlocks supposed to AoE down the adds? Check out the  the damage on weapons, rider, etc.

 

 #4 Yes, warlocks should AoE the adds with F&B. If your raid leader is telling you to stop, then stop. If the adds don't die and he/she tries to blame your lack of AoE after they told you to stop, call them out and make them look stupid.

 

Gear is a crutch. Don't look at their ilvl, don't blame your ilvl. Just focus on your job and do it to the best of your ability. If the raid leader is to stupid to see that you're 5ilvl behind then you won't be able to fix that

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I've beaten warlocks with 10 ilvls on me in the past - it's never an excuse. If they were that god mode, you would know and no one would even bother calling attention to them crushing you.

 

If you need more single target damage, drop Rain of Fire on the adds, hit them with F&B Immolate, then rain Chaos Bolts on his face. Again, if the adds stop dying and he says anything to you, then you're in a position to make him look incompetent and foolish in front of the entire raid.

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Looking at your logs a bit I would say your title is misleading.  You beat the other locks on Attempts under 2 mins (basically phase 1) for garrosh dmg on just about every attempt.  Seems like your phase 1 is fine when comparing to the other locks.  Its the longer attempts they start to pass you on garrosh, and its nothing to do with too much or too little AoE.

 

I personally found it very good for ember generation to dot weapons during 4p proc and tried as much as possible to double dip that casting time with havoc.  Always ensure you have RoF down for MC's as you will get embers from the MC targets and if you're MC you will get embers from your whole raid.  I would havoc with immolate/incin/conflag for weapons high in HP, and copy a shadowburn(s) to Garrosh from low weapons.

 

Our 10m raid had an Aff lock, and 2 destros.  Between a soul swap and our havocs we don't move Garrosh at all between 1st and second heart as we have enough passive cleave shrinking weapons that we have room for the 4 Desecrated before heart.

 

The problem with this fight when evaluating boss dmg, is the dps check points.  You may do several mil less in phase 1 because you dedicate 2 or 3 more globals to AoE that could have been CB's.  However If your phase 1 is clean and no longer an area your raid needs to get better at, why change just to appease the meter watcher?  If you raid is working on pushing him low enough before say the second heart transition, the boss dmg from phase 1 is no longer significant.  The key is how much boss dmg you are getting during rp before 1st heart until you push second heart.  Then again between start of phase 3 until p4....

Edited by Soulzar
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From my view point, as a raid leader, having DPS assigned to the right role was key to consistency in P1.  Our comp was:

 

Tanks - Guardian, Prot Pally

DPS - Destro x 2, Survival, Elemental, Retribution, Fury

Healers - Holy Paladin, Resto Druid

 

For our DPS, our bear would be out of control.  Seriously needed rabies shots at times because of Flurry of Xuen.  When her dmg spiked over 1M, we had to peel off Garrosh a bit.  This was RNG influenced because sometimes adds picked her, sometimes they picked the Paladin. 

 

Being in a 10 man, I solo'd the engineer on my own.  I still contributed to the rest of the fight, but my job was to ensure engineer success and place well timed AoE and Shadowburns to push phase faster.  For example, when I come back from the 2nd engineer, I have to decide if I need to unload Shadowburns into Garrosh to ensure a safe push or if I can start on the Wolfrider right away.  DPS swings because of trinkets and procs made this different every time. 

 

For the P1 group not doing engineers, we spent attempts learning how to balance DPS.  Our Ele Shaman didn't AoE.  He sat on Garrosh and replaced Lightning Bolt with Chain Lightning that was unglyphed.  Our Survival Hunter only did a Multishot here and there - he mostly did single target damage.  Everyone else went ham on AoE to bring adds to the point they were dead before the Iron Star came.  This reduced RNG deaths and wipes and it was a fine tuned machine by the time we killed it.  I can't speak for 25s, but I would imagine you would have to split your DPS to ensure consistency.  If anyone cares about meters at this point, they don't belong in your raid group because their failure to understand what the encounter is asking of them shows they don't belong at that level of content.

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I can't read Worldoflogs at work - if you have it in Warcraftlog forms, I can inspect it.

 

In regards to defensive mitigation and Havoc, you're just projecting frustrations at being blamed and trying to find validation in whether or not you're playing correctly.

 

Focus on the issue at hand - doing enough damage to Garrosh - instead of focusing on non-essential things like other bosses and defensive mitigation.

 

- WL : http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/B1pCWdxGw9MZKhrX

 

- I explained why instead of asking the others locks I decided to come here and ask for help. Regarding the other bosses I put the log at the end my post for anyone who could kindly find more flaws in my gameplay and let me fix it. I was fraustrated because I was being focused, if you go through the other wipes you'll notice I've been doing same/higher damage on garrosh.

 

 

 

#1 you're doing 26mil damge to the boss LESS then the top warlock on pull #12. Unless you're doing a job that he isn't doing, such as going out to kill the eng, you have no reason for doing that much less.

 

Yes, I guess I have spent "too much time" applying dots on the weapons I explain why.

 

 

#2 Immolate uptimes will lie on this fight, I commonly let my Immo drop because I'm doing something else, running in/out, killing an add, focusing on staying alive, etc. I hate looking at trinkets/CDs on WoL so...I'll let some other masochist do that for you. 

 

#3 You shouldn't be DoTing the weapons to start with. There is really no reason for it. Nor should you be using Havoc with CB or SB on them. Unless you're using some really weird strat.

 

I *assume* you're using roughly the same strat that every 25m uses, put the weapons on the outside of the room, ignore them, kill the boss, kite or kill the adds depending on if you have a BrM monk, GG loot boss. 

 

With that strat you need VERY little damage on the weapons, my raid used none. We had two warlocks and we just used them for embers, never putting any work in to killing them. Shrinking them down a little was just icing.

 

As such, you should be using weapons to Havoc off of with Incinerate for ember generation. No DoTs, no CBs, no SB - unless you're spending ONE burn to gain TWO embers. If you LOSE embers using SB on the weapon, you're doing it wrong.

 

 

I Havoc CB'ed the weapons when I had >= 3 embers and trinket procs, Dotted the weapons when I had ember master buff and/or tempus repit, Havoc incinerated when we were running and I had less than 2 embers. Havoc SB'd the rider while finishing him off. One another problem that I can think of is SBin the adds when there's no havoc buff resulting in another DPS loss on Garrosh.

 

The reason I was applying immolate like that is that I had a feeling that it was actually regenerating embers. Is it really not worth doing so? Just cut down the damage/GCD used on weapons and I should be close to other locks.

 

 

I've beaten warlocks with 10 ilvls on me in the past - it's never an excuse. If they were that god mode, you would know and no one would even bother calling attention to them crushing you.

 

If you need more single target damage, drop Rain of Fire on the adds, hit them with F&B Immolate, then rain Chaos Bolts on his face. Again, if the adds stop dying and he says anything to you, then you're in a position to make him look incompetent and foolish in front of the entire raid.

 

Some raiders including an officer (who's been telling new recruits that destro's should not reforge to crit) were arguing about RoF being enough for unlimited amount of embers! When I said I had to F&B they said it's some BS excuse!

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Some raiders including an officer (who's been telling new recruits that destro's should not reforge to crit) were arguing about RoF being enough for unlimited amount of embers! When I said I had to F&B they said it's some BS excuse!

Le sigh.  Everyone thinks we are just invincible and make mobs die by clicking our heels together.  Sounds like you're playing in a toxic environment where people would rather lay blame than work on correcting issues.

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Some raiders including an officer (who's been telling new recruits that destro's should not reforge to crit) were arguing about RoF being enough for unlimited amount of embers! When I said I had to F&B they said it's some BS excuse!

 

You're more than welcome to send them here to us. We have a multitude of 14/14HM warlocks that will be more than happy to tell your guildmates that they have no idea how warlocks work.

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Some raiders including an officer (who's been telling new recruits that destro's should not reforge to crit) were arguing about RoF being enough for unlimited amount of embers! When I said I had to F&B they said it's some BS excuse!

 

 

Your guilds officer is a moron and needs to be demoted and put on global mute so that his stupidity does not infect the other warlocks.

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a lot of this depends on your raid strat. 

 

1. do you guys use the iron star to kill adds in phase 1? because if you are, then you are fucking up pretty bad in phase 1 by going balls deep on the warbringers which is useless damage. the chart should pretty much never look like this.

http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/B1pCWdxGw9MZKhrX#type=damage-done&fight=13&start=7246776&end=7381909&source=3&by=target

 

2. how many desecrated weapons do you need to kill in phase 2? 

this is transition 1 + phase 2 until transition 2 damage http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/B1pCWdxGw9MZKhrX#type=damage-done&fight=13&source=3&by=target&start=7393465&end=7590728

that is really really bad. i mean you're doing less damage here than you should be doing even in phase 1, and this lasts much longer. 

 

you dont make it very far after transition 2 so im not gonna look into that

 

 

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We kill the first set of Warbringers in P1 before Iron Star comes.  Every once in a while, a couple live with 5%, but we found this mitigates a lot of the random zerg deaths where 3 or 4 adds will pick someone and abuse the shit out of them.  Same deal with the 2nd set.  We use some AoE to kill the adds as an off-set so we don't kill Garrosh too quickly.  When we kill Garrosh too quickly in P1, Havoc and other CDs are not up and ready for players going into the transition so it makes it more troublesome.  Killing adds isn't always the poison it's made out to be.

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it's different on 25 man. we get to transition 1 with 20-30 seconds left before my darksoul is ready and we just blow through it anyway because 25 man.

 

also if someone dies to the roid-raging adds in p1 on 25 man it's their fault. we have a mass deathgrip for both sets of adds so they always beat on the tank unless someone is way out of position.

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And people still say 25 man is harder than 10...

 

75% of our progression wipes was someone being gibbed by adds.  No DK = no grip, so they'd just randomly fixate on whatever the hell they wanted.  Can't wait for Mythic.

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a lot of this depends on your raid strat. 

 

1. do you guys use the iron star to kill adds in phase 1? because if you are, then you are fucking up pretty bad in phase 1 by going balls deep on the warbringers which is useless damage. the chart should pretty much never look like this.

http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/B1pCWdxGw9MZKhrX#type=damage-done&fight=13&start=7246776&end=7381909&source=3&by=target

 

Yes we do. However, on some of our attemps they wouldn't die by the iron star and we have to finish them off. How does it have to look like exactly?

 

RoF > FnB Incenirate > FnB immolate > CB > FnB Incenirate > CB >... ? Basically, replacing single target Incenirate with FnBed version "just to regenerate" embers ?

 

 

 

2. how many desecrated weapons do you need to kill in phase 2? 

this is transition 1 + phase 2 until transition 2 damage http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/B1pCWdxGw9MZKhrX#type=damage-done&fight=13&source=3&by=target&start=7393465&end=7590728

that is really really bad. i mean you're doing less damage here than you should be doing even in phase 1, and this lasts much longer. 

 

you dont make it very far after transition 2 so im not gonna look into that

 

None, We're placing them at the edge of the room, starting from the corners on the left side. As mentioned above, I was applying immolate dots on "Every weapon in the room" which seems to be the main issue and havoc CB/Incinerated every time havoc was off CD and one of conditions was true. So what do you suggest?

 

Thanks

Edited by trance

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And people still say 25 man is harder than 10...

 

75% of our progression wipes was someone being gibbed by adds.  No DK = no grip, so they'd just randomly fixate on whatever the hell they wanted.  Can't wait for Mythic.

i dont think anyone says 25H garrosh is harder than 10H. every boss is different though.

 

Yes we do. However, on some of our attemps they wouldn't die by the iron star and we have to finish them off. How does it have to look like exactly?

 

RoF > FnB Incenirate > FnB immolate > CB > FnB Incenirate > CB >... ? Basically, replacing single target Incenirate with FnBed version "just to regenerate" embers ?

 

 

 

 

None, We're placing them at the edge of the room, starting from the corners on the left side. As mentioned above, I was applying immolate dots on "Every weapon in the room" which seems to be the main issue and havoc CB/Incinerated every time havoc was off CD and one of conditions was true. So what do you suggest?

 

Thanks

 

p1:

- immolate + incinerate garrosh until adds spawn

- ROF as adds are running in or getting mass-gripped

- FNB immolate, keep ROF going, spam CBs onto garrosh (or the weapon if you are assigned to it). do not FNB incinerate.

- use havoc to get 3 shadowburns onto garrosh from the weapon/adds, keep CBing garrosh

- iron star kills the adds and hits the wolf rider for 50%

- havoc 3 shadowburns onto garrosh from wolf rider

- ROF as second add wave is coming in and second weapon lands

- FNB immolate + ROF and spam CB onto garrosh

- havoc 3 shadowburns onto garrosh from the adds then keep shadowburning garrosh directly

- second iron star kills the adds

 

if you are getting a second wolf rider or a third set of adds, your raid dps is too low because people are padding damage on the adds.

 

p2: 

if you're not killing any weapons out of necessity, then always use havoc to generate embers. never havoc chaosbolt onto a weapon, it is pointless and should have been used for ember generation instead. using this method you will get a lot of embers and you will be casting CB even with no procs sometimes, just get used to it. do not touch the weapons except with havoc.

Edited by mediocregatsby

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And people still say 25 man is harder than 10...

 

75% of our progression wipes was someone being gibbed by adds.  No DK = no grip, so they'd just randomly fixate on whatever the hell they wanted.  Can't wait for Mythic.

 

Fuck those adds!  I assume you didn't have a priest with Roots of OP?  Really fun watching the adds just stand there doing nothing :D

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      Hello all! I figured i'd make this thread to get some up to date information on the AOE rotation for unholy.  Currently i'm 935 ilvl, and I run Incstructor's fourth lesson and Soul. (For lack of a better option.) However it is my understanding that these two legendaries make for the strongest aoe rotation. Is this true?

       That is my first question. My second is what is the priority for aoe when running these two. Is it to wait for defile to drop, then festering wound a target a couple times, then Scourge Strike? Or is the priority to just put Wounds on then pop them asap, dropping the defile whenever it's available. Typically I wait for defile before I start building Wounds, but given the soul and the extra talent, i suspect it's better to just aoe without Defile if it's unavailable or perhaps just better to rarely spend runes on defile? Curious as to your thoughts!