lipsinch

State of Rogues

13 posts in this topic

Is anyone following the huge QQ @ official forums?

 

I came in there to check out if there was some constructive thread, I faced myself with this:

 

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/15537784661

 

A tl;dr version: some big time trolls @ official forums trashing out Rogues, some other representative players trying to put sense on them and few clueless people throwing some winner-side and ambiguous crap.

 

I still reading it, but it's giving me cancer.

 

Question is: how do YOU face Rogue's state? You want a buff or we're in a decent spot?

 

Please be aware that I don't wanna raise or incite any argue just like that topic. I gave it as an example of what I want to avoid.

 

I agree on few points that we gotta pull the deeps as a pure DPS and we're under obsolete class-style gameplay and a small overhaul wouldn't be bad, but I don't feel we are sucking balls like people's trying to rub at my face as the most giant truth of the world. We're melee, we're more susceptible to damage and damage loss due to movement, compared to range - thus, we naturally would deal a bit less damage than them.

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People whine about max potential sim and log DPS, but the truth is the reason 99% of rogues are behind is not because they have a systematic disadvantage, it's that they don't play to the best ability of the class. Evidence is mounting that we are behind, but the hyperbole would have you believe other classes are doubling us.

 

To speak to the OP in that link (I didn't read beyond it), should max potential rogues be closer to the rest of the pack? Yes, come the next content patch in late January I am expecting some changes. I think it more likely that other classes will receive debuffs rather than us receiving buffs, but we'll see. As for rogues taking the most damage of the DPS specs, unless the entire game took a complete 180 that's just not true. I maintain that talented/glyphed Feint is the most effective on demand damage cooldown in the game, with Cloak of Shadows not far behind it.

 

The takeaway here is simple. If your purpose in playing World of Warcraft is to be the absolute most effective raider possible, then you should have a full stable of fully geared alts that you are ready to switch to after every patch and hotfix. If your purpose is to pick one class and complain when you aren't always superior to all other specs based on whatever rationalization you've invented, then you're going to be unhappy a lot of the time. If you just like playing a rogue, you will find a way to make it work despite what Simcraft might happen to say.

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Firstly id like to say that i am pretty much solely a PVE player, if i had time to pvp i probably would but i dont, 

 

As a long time Rogue player (assassination at the moment, considering switching to sub) i dont feel that my dps is as bad as all this QQing on the official forums. I do know how to play my spec, and have used assa for the previous 2 expansions, i know it like the back of my hand, and in guild runs (which i can only attend every other week due to work) i'm usually around 3rd or 4th on dmg, Thats behind a crazy geared enhance shammy and a mage, Some times our DK is up there too. 

 

So not too bad in the grand scheme of things. I'd like to see us buffed, but hey i'm a rogue. I'm sure every other class wants theirs buffed too right?

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 If you just like playing a rogue, you will find a way to make it work despite what Simcraft might happen to say.

 This

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I've been playing a rogue since starting vanilla a very long time ago, and have enjoyed it the whole way. This expac, however, is the first time i have been truly considering re-rolling. Bringing a skilled rogue or a skilled <insert class here> is almost a no brainer if you want to have the best raid possible. Since we're falling on dps, we really have nothing else to offer.

 

I analyze my logs and try to maximize my class as much as possible, normally coming close to achieving simdps and and ranking for my class/spec. The problem i see with rogues now is that we are so far behind the power curve at high levels of play it's not even fun. It's disheartening to see other classes play mediocre and still do close to the same or above everything us poor rogues can dish out. Blaming up-time as an issue for lower damage numbers isn't really correct considering most fights it's not much of an issue as rogues have tons of mobility and more ways to avoid damage almost any melee class. 

 

As for sub being the light at the end of the tunnel, think again. The spec is great on single target fights, but it offers little competition to the other specs when you have to swap targets or kill adds. 

 

As sad as it is to say, at this point if you want to bring the best you can to raids, i think we're better off duel spec'd as combat/sub and having to keep 2 different sets of gear. Or you could play what you like and hope we get some love soon.

 

Here's to hoping things turn around. Cheers guys and Happy Holidays!

Edited by Kuball

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As a counterpoint, a lot of high end Mythic guilds still use Rogues. The DPS that we offer is still totally valid at any level - the only guild that didn't use Rogues that I've seen videos from is Paragon. Both of their Rogue rerolled, but if you look at Method they still ran with 2 for Imperator.

 

Rogues might not be the absolute top, but we're far from being useless or anything like that. If you enjoyed playing Rogue before, you will likely still enjoy it. If you feel like your damage is low, post logs here and we can help. Fixing damage is easy enough

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@Carrn: AFAIK, Paragon and Midwinter benched their Rogues. Not sure about Ascension and Blood Legion their sites seem outdated, but their recruits are closed for any Rogue class (perhaps they've reached their quota? dunno).

 

I'm in no ways a mythic achiever nor I wanna be, but would be nice to see some big numbers since now it's the only thing we bring for raids, aside survivability. Hear people sayin' "holy mother of god what was that crit" when I slap would make my day.

 

Oh if it would.

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Paragon's Rogues rerolled - one to Enh shaman and one to WW I believe. I'm not sure about Midwinter, but I know that Vigilate bitches on Twitter all the time.

I saw the interview with members of Paragon, and they said that they would have taken Rogues, but they based their raid team around AoE cleave (which is why they did Butcher last, cause they had less single target damage

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As a counterpoint, a lot of high end Mythic guilds still use Rogues. The DPS that we offer is still totally valid at any level - the only guild that didn't use Rogues that I've seen videos from is Paragon. Both of their Rogue rerolled, but if you look at Method they still ran with 2 for Imperator.

 

Rogues might not be the absolute top, but we're far from being useless or anything like that. If you enjoyed playing Rogue before, you will likely still enjoy it. If you feel like your damage is low, post logs here and we can help. Fixing damage is easy enough

 

I didn't mean completely useless for raids, but we're definitely low end of the spectrum.

 

I thought i had seen most of the world first guilds that actually used rogues used combat, and it definitely wasn't for their single target dps. Sub is putting up some decent numbers on the butcher, but right in the middle of the pack.

 

The only bad thing about it is that in order to pull the best damage possible, you have to have 2 sets of gear as sub and combat don't share the same secondaries. 

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True.

 

There's a few reasons that the 'pro-gression' Rogues were mostly (not all) playing Combat:

 

  1. More access to weapons - there's only 1 dagger drop in the ENTIRETY of Highmaul, and that's off the second last boss.
     
  2. Out of Assassination and Combat, which are the two specs not hindered by positioning requirements, Combat gives better performance
     
  3. The style of real progression raiding is extremely different compared to normal. Everything revolves around coordinated bursts of damage that are often on multiple targets - "clear these adds quick then continue to stay alive and take the boss slow and steady"

 

That last reason is also the reason that Rogues are still a top choice for many of the top guilds. Just using Method as an example, they ran:

  • 3 Rogues for Kargath, Twins, and Tectus
  • 2 Rogues for Brakenspore, Butcher, and Imperator
  • 1 Rogue for Ko'ragh, although the reasoning behind this was, I believe, a need for more magic damage to dump the shield faster

Rogues have very strong cooldowns, some good raid utility, and all specs have great on-demand burst. 

 

The biggest reason that a lot of Rogues aren't seeing very good results right now is that Itemization sucks HORRIBLY. The only dagger drop in the entire zone is Haste + Vers; the two worst stats for Sub and Assassination. Neither the fist weapon nor the axe have Haste for Combat, either; they're Crit + Vers and Mastery + Multi respectively. Those are just a couple examples, too - the rest of the gear is "meh" at best with very few exceptions. 

 

TL;DR - Rogues are really quite good at the Mythic progression level of raiding. Even below the top guilds, teams that are making early Mythic progress don't shy away from taking Rogues. There are other problems though, mostly related to gearing, which prevent Rogues from being where they could be - but none of those make Rogues bad

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I tell you right now, at 3/7 Mythic and doing relatively well, I'm satisfied with my damage. I'm not on top, but I perform well and I almost never die. That's the reliability and consistency that a Rogue provides.

 

 

I don't think that we're in a bad spot at all. Rogues still feel great and are fun to play, but there's an awkward point in the spectrum of "skill level" (for lack of a better term) where a lot of people only believe in what sims and meters say, and start to ignore what actually happens in a raid. Any class that isn't at the top right now is 'broken and needs work', while ignoring the fact that the difference in DPS might only be a few percent different. 

 

This difference is blown up out of proportion when certain classes are able to effectively cheese encounters by doing ridiculous amounts of damage on specific fights and not doing a whole lot on others, and therefor look amazingly overpowered. Charts barely mean anything at all, and real raid performance is a very different thing from fight to fight and even guild to guild or player to player. Look at the current top logs if you don't believe me - Boomkins and Enhance Shamans are at the top with 50.5 and 48.5k dps. That's absurd. 

 

What people who only look at positions on the charts don't see, is the difference in Min and Max dps. Boomkins bottom out at 15k, where Sub is sitting at 21.3k at the lowest. Granted, we only top out at 36.7k, but think about it - that's only 5.2k dps behind the next class that isn't abusing specific mechanics, and it's nearly 10k up on the minimum of some of the classes which are "better than them" 

 

What I'm trying to say is that Rogues aren't on top, nor on the bottom. We're solid, reliable dps who can avoid like 90% of damage or boss effects. We can play roles in strategies, make up for somebody else's mistakes by taking over their job, or anything else that you and your raid leader can come up with.

 

 

More of my personal thoughts on the subject.

 

/endrant

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Sorry, didn't realize I had kicked the hornets nest.  I would like to thank you for putting quotations and bullet format around all of your points as I would have had a problem finding them otherwise. Anyway, thanks again for your rant. 

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