Pandariah

Holy PvE Opinions

11 posts in this topic

Hello, everyone!

I'd like to discuss Holy Paladins with you all. I've read over everything Icy-Veins has been kind enough to provide for our assistance, but - I'd like to get everyone's opinions on certain things. I've been told that Paladins are very weak healers right now, and not the first choice for progression raids. The problem with that is that my main is a Paladin. I recently (1-2 months ago, now) came back to WoW after a three year hiatus. Needless to say, my Pali is quite different now than he was in Wrath. So, I'd like to talk to you all about that.

Personally, I've been intrigued by the Holy spec's use of Mastery. It's not beneficial for all classes and specs, frankly, but Holy Paladins is quite fun! Oh - I forgot to link my character.

http://us.battle.net...n/Zokura/simple

Now for me, personally - I am not having an issue with maintaining my mana. So, I do not stack solid spirit like I've been told by many a healer and website. After all, I'm a big fan of the Glyph of Divine Plea. But here's my first question - do any of you other Pali healers feel like your heals are a little weak? My spellpower is 18K, which isn't very high, as I've noticed other healers with 20-25K spellpower. I've thought about gemming for solid intellect, but that seems foolish, considering it's half the stat weight of other gems. Plus, I have had a good experience with Mastery healing.

The odd part is, I'm not having trouble topping the healing charts. And no - I don't mean that as a cocky statement, please don't misunderstand. The most my Paladin has done is 35K hps. My priest can do about 55K hps. (I've even tested this raiding with my same guild group, and faired just as well with the lower hps.) Also, it's important to note, that I am not an Eternal Flame blanketer. I've read about that, and I find it silly and a waste of time. Padding your numbers is not beneficial to the raid! For example, I don't even have recount up while in LFR. I only use it in my 10 man to make sure that myself (and the other healers) are all doing our parts and staying true to our healing assignments.

So, how are you other Pali healers fairing? Gearing differently than Icy-Veins recommends? Exactly the same? I'm open to all opinions and all advice. Thank you so much for taking the time to read this. Take care!

P.S. - Sorry for being longwinded... I really had to stop myself from saying more. :x Lol!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have never mained a Holy Paladin, but I like to think of myself as a connoisseur of healing. I've played all healers and help in big part with my raid team and help call CD's etc.

Anyway, Mastery is a very good way to go and I feel paladins are really good healers at the moment. They can excel more at single target tank healing then raid healing, but they are excellent at both.

To give an example, I have a log from our first heroic Garaon kill from yesterday.

http://www.worldoflo.../?s=1629&e=2051

Now when you look at it you might think there are 8 healers, but really the last two are shadow preists that are spamming divine star. Above the two shadow priests is one of our best healers. Geoda (a paladin), but he is on te bottom of the charts. Why? Because he was assigned the sole responsibility of keeping the Pheromone kiter alive. So he did not do too much AoE healing. Then you look at the top of the list. there is Tolzzy, our other paladin healer. He was assigned the responsbilty (along with me) of running with the melee group and healing them as they dps Garalon's legs and when Melee was with the rest of the range group, he would help heal everyone else as well. He ended up on top because of that role. You can also tell by their spell usage that they were performing their roles effectively.and correctly.

Now obviously we have a lot more gear then you, but if you look at their armorys, they are gemming a lot more spirit then you are.

http://us.battle.net...Tolzzy/advanced

http://us.battle.net.../Geoda/advanced

IMO, even if you are good with mana, having more can still help your longevity which will allow you to heal more often or save it for wen you need it.

Ask Mr.Robot also has great pre-sets for holy paladin builds if you care to look at that.

To conclude, I think Holy Paladins are in a great position, as they always have been. They are not the strong AoE healers they were in Dragon Soul, but they still perform really well. IMO, they are the most balanced healers.

Edited by krazyito65
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you so much for taking the time to share so much with me! It seems like my rotations aren't an issue, based on your logs. And yeah, I haven't been too lucky in LFR, and our ten man isn't the strongest progression group. But that's alright! So, I definitely see the spirit stacking, and will give it a shot. I only have one more question for you, sir. I noticed Geoda has Sacred Shield, and I'm guessing Trolzzy does as well. Is it detrimental to my healing that I have Eternal Flame? That's an easy switch, but it just feels silly, since our MT (my priority) is a Paladin with Sacred Shield as well. Should I take Sacred Shield and keep it on our OT instead? And truly, I appreciate the help. ^^

- Zokura / Xiongmushi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For Geoda on that particular fight he chose Sacred Shield since he was doing a ton of single target healing. Though Eternal Flame I would think does just as well when fully powered. Looking through that log, it seemed Tolzzy has Sacred Shield as well and according to this expression he used it primarily on our warrior off tank. the main reason I think he used that spell instead of EF was probably becasue most of his holy power was going to LoD instead of WoG. While as I mentioned before, Geoda probably could have made good use of it since his WoG was more heavy. Though obviously he thought Sacred Shield would do better for him.

EDIT: To say something else, Sacred Shield is more useful on this fight for Tolzzy (AoE Healer) becasue both tanks are taking the same damage at the same time. So there is no tank switch and I'm not sure how Sacred shield acts with a Prot Pallys. To say the least, its pretty good on this fight since both tank tanke the same amount of damage at the same time and one already has sacred shield.

Though I have seen Tolzzy make good use of selfless healer on some fights (I think Heroic Will of the Emperor was one). IMO that tier of talents gives you a lot of choice for play styles and should be taken into consideration each time you want to try to improve your healing. Being able to use all 3 can greatly diversify your healing to make you adaptable to any encounter. To say the least, I know our paladins make use of both EF and Sacred Shield, and the occasional Selfless Healer for specific fights.

Also, on EF blanket, you definitely don't have to blanket, but remember all those HoT ticks from EF will transfer to your beacon target which can help steady tank damage. If you are using EF, you should probabl at least make use of it on people that need the WoG heal and the EF ticks are extra for your beacon.

EDIT again: Last thing to note. Even though spirit stacking may seem silly (I understand, because I played a resto druid from late wrath through early MoP, and I stacked pure intellect and almost reached a 190k passive mana pool in late cata, when the average was 150k~). But when MoP hit, and the intellect/Mana Pool change came into effect, spirit has just become a very necessary stat. With blues, you need to stack spirit. It is just the best way to go. Intellect and more spirit will come with gear. When you have more gear and can maintain a 10k-13k spirit pool and are comfortable, then I would say start making the intellect switch.

Edited by krazyito65

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, I made the switch for all my gems, and have tested quite a bit since your response, and I'm, frankly, blown away at the difference 1500 in combat regen makes. Now I feel silly for not just listening to all the guides in the first place. The real test will be tonight in my ten man. But thanks again for the in-depth help! I really appreciate it. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My Holy Pally is sitting at 20k SP and I tend to agree. Crit RNG has a huge effect; my heals feel somewhat weak until a super Holy Prism that rings up 400-500k. Priests just blow the meters away, but it is what it is. WoG in particular feels underscaled.

I feel confident that I can keep up most tanks, where it seems like Mastery really shines (I've reforged to essentially all Mastery). Spirit would for sure extend full out Holy Radiance spam, but if the raid is depending on that things are probably pretty bleak. I'll try a full-spirit setup once I get a Sha gem and Jade Spirit onto a 496 Kri'tak.

Question: Would an all-out spirit setup noticeably increase the value of haste or vice versa?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

More spirit would probably allow you to have more haste. But, the problem is haste only helps for controlled burst healing. Its a playstyle preferece that you have to decide if you rather.

Mastery build's are the most common and usually do very well.

If you read the 3-presets Ask Mr. Robot has, they have a good explanation for each of the secondary stat builds. Basically: Mastery = Throughput/HPS. Haste = HPS. Crit = Throughput.

Remember, Haste will drain your mana more then any of the other stats, and you already have the proc from Holy Shock crits that reduce the cast times. IMO if you are going to not use a mastery build, Crit would be the next best option.

Haste is better if you find you need more burst healing on a progression fight.

Edited by Krazyito

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm at 500 ilvl and I still stack Spirit and Mastery, it's by far (imo) the best overall healing. I've tried a haste build, and it was definitely better in some fights like Sha of Fear, which needed lots of controlled burst healing. The only healer in our raids that ever bests me is the disc priest, mainly because of Atonement and Spirit Shell, and no one seems to consider overhealing. From what I've experienced, Holy paladins are the most effective healers in raids, even with mastery absorb shields since they last long enough to be helpful.

Just wondering, has anyone tried a crit-heavy build (spirit, crit, mastery, haste)? I feel that it would be helpful in some encounters, but I'm afraid crit would be just too unreliable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do miss crit, terribly. :< I played back in Wrath (missed Cata altogether), and stacked crit all the way. I loved it! Every single spell crit, and it was amazing. Mana? PFFFT. Never ran out. I was an oasis to a raid's desert. Bah! I miss that. xD I felt powerful! Not that I don't feel like I can save people now, just sometimes, not so much as I want to. But, I suppose that's the tradeoff. But to be honest... I'm really enjoying my Druid more right now. :x Uh-oh!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Druid is a completely different play style. Which has you managing a lot of passive healing with your mana. They are actually getting a sizable buff next path which should bring them more in line with other healers.

If you wish I can elaborate more on druids. It was my first healing class and old main. For now I'm going to sleep. I was up all night leveling an alt.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This forum has helped alot. i did start with a haste build and saw i was almost always oom after a few min. im going to regem and reforge into spirit and mastery and see how it works. my current spirit is 8312

http://us.battle.net...neally/advanced

Besides the obvious unenchanted shoulders and enchants ( just got them) i have 10% haste with no buffs. i think thats a bit much, but have a look see on her. This is my first forum post and not sure of any forum etiquette. Thanks.

I have started to do a spirit and mastery build now. the difference is significant. i dont hardly oom anymore and my "HPS" is up. due to the higher mastery thus more "absorbs" that count toward the HPS counter.

Edited by CodyCarlisle

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Similar Content

    • By OzzCat
      Good time, everyone. New set-bonus requires to do some rotation and now i mostly use binding heal + prayer of healing, but in case of running in Antorus - could surge of light from legendary be a good option? And maybe some other talent changes as well.
    • By Babblet
      Location: – Horde – US Connected Realms: The Venture Co - Maelstrom - Lightninghoof
       
      About us:
      Converge has been around since WoW Vanilla and has been raiding together since Molten Core; we used to be a four day raiding guild but over the years we had to adjust our playtime and priorities and are now a two day raiding guild. We had to cut our total hours spent playing WoW but we still remain just as competitive and result oriented.
       
      Mandatory reading.
      Basics: be ilvl 920+; 52+ points in MS Artifact Weapon.
      Raiding 101: be able to execute/avoid fight mechanics; communicate in English and use a microphone.
      We raid twice a week, a total of 6 hours; attendance of 90% is mandatory. We require you to function at 100% from the second the raid starts all the way to its end; if you cannot commit to a raiding schedule and be online on time this is not a guild for you.
       
      Raid Times: 8:00 PM – 11:00 AM Eastern Time – Monday/Tuesday.
       
      Recruitment: Ranged DPS /  Heals
       
      Legion Progression:
      EN 7/7 Heroic
      ToV 3/3 Heroic
      NH 10/10 Heroic
      ToS 9/9 Heroic
      Antorus 6/11 Heroic

      Contacts:  
      BTag: Shig#1825
       
      *Do not send PMs, get in touch in-game; do not contact unless you are ready to transfer if accepted for a permanent raid spot.
    • By Exploit
      Hi everyone,
      I, like many others, are trying to maximize DPS for their respective classes, mine in particular being ret paladin.
      In general, it seems like there are several sources of information for dps for each class.
      Icy Veins Mr Robot Raidbots (Simulation Craft) Warcraft Logs Each with its own set of criteria as to what determines high dps. And I find inconsistency when bouncing between the different sources. I want to understand what am I missing when it comes to each. I will lay out what I currently understand, and would like some feedback as to what I may not be considering in each as well as some advice as to what other options I could be exploring (resources) to further the insight into whats applicable for my current state.
      Icy Veins
      For Icy Veins, in particular, the stat weights, are mostly vaguely determined. From the ret guide:
       
      If I am reading this right, its Mastery >= Haste > Ver >= Crit = Str
      Mr Robot
      I use the addOn and I subscribe for the Best In Bags function. When I plug in my information in, the site recommends that I go with my 2pce t20 and balance around my legendaries with a focus on haste pieces (haste gems are emphasized).
      https://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simulator/report/a42136294c7f40b2b7ee78023306d786
      Stat weights as listed in MrRobot:
      MrRobot Stat Weights
      From what I am seeing, Crit is most emphasized, and the one crit gem + ring crit enchants were originally recommended by MrRobot here. Also another notable thing here is haste being way behind crit's potential.
      RaidBots (Simc)
      For RaidBots, I use the addOn, and play around with various items I hoard, and use the stat weights functions. Generally the feedback I get here are to stick with the current gem setup and with regards to stat weights, emphasize at my current setup with crit. It also says I should drop some of my high ilvl pieces (935 head, and 960 chest) for 4pce (915 head, lfr 890 chest)
      Gear simc:
      https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/d3Qbkf6nqpoP4bxQ9YB2m
      Stat Weights:
      https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/6NkVYwEaTW26FxD4wBwey4
      Vers -> crit -> mastery -> haste -> str
      (versitality first?)
      Warcraft Logs
      I mostly use Warcraft Logs to check what the top dps players (ret pallys) are hitting and what setups are they running. I don't want to specifically link player armories in here, but upon some investigation, you'll find most are just stacking haste
      ---
      I understand stat weights are relative, however it seems like everyone has different priorities, one says mastery, another vers, another crit, another haste?
      Help me understand.
      Thanks,
      Exploit
       
       
    • By Damien
      This thread is for comments about our Silver Hand Paladin Deck List Guide.
    • By Pain
      Hello guys i would like to share my weakauras for each healing class, hope you like it ;)
      Any feedback is appreciated
      ____________________________________________________________________________________________________
      New to Weakauras ?
      You can download it here :
      https://mods.curse.com/addons/wow/weakauras-2
      Copy - paste the code of which you can find down below  (Import string) On the wago.io webpage links you can find a copy string button on the right, colored red.
      Like this :  When ingame type /wa to open the control panel of weakaura. Select "import" Paste the string from the wago webpage into this. A screen will pop-up and select the import button on it. ____________________________________________________________________________________________________
      Update Log 
      01-07-17 : Massive update for Holy Priest Healing tool !
      16-07-17 : Big improvement for the Druid Healing tool. 
      29-07-17 : Shaman healing tool now supports legendary's and trinkets from 7.2.5
      25-08-17 : Massive update for Disc Priest healing tool 
      26-08-17 : Tuned Paladin and Druid healing tool and some small improvements
      02-09-17 : Small update for Holy Priest healing tool
      15-09-17 : Shaman healing tool now supports PvP feature's and some tuning to Paladin healing tool
      22-11-17 : Shaman healing tool has been redesigned and improved !
      26-11-17 : Added global cooldown to shaman and paladin healing tool and abit of fine tuning.
      28-11-17 : Druid healing tool has been Redisgned and added global cooldown.
      03-12-17 : Some improvements to the Paladin healing tool
      ____________________________________________________________________________________________________
      Summary :
      Shaman Druid Paladin Priest Monk ____________________________________________________________________________________________________
      Shaman 

      Resto Shaman - Healing Tool
       
      Import string :  https://wago.io/SJAG4cTub        ←
      ________________________________________________________
      What's making sound :
      Riptide - off cooldown
      Healing rain - off cooldown
      ____________________________________________________________________________________________________
      Resto Shaman - Small Healing Tool
      If you prefer a smaller setup, you might like this one. (But doesnt cover everything)

      Import string :  https://wago.io/H1SpVcaOZ        ←
      ____________________________________________________________________________________________________
      Resto Shaman - Cooldowns

      Import string : https://wago.io/r1JWBcp_Z       ←
      ____________________________________________________________________________________________________
      Resto Shaman - Usable cooldowns

      Import string :  https://wago.io/S1u7HqpdZ       ←
      ____________________________________________________________________________________________________
      ____________________________________________________________________________________________________
       
      Druid 
      Druid - Healing Tool

      Import string :  https://wago.io/H1ZvS9p_b       ←
      _______________________________________________________
      What's making sound :
      Life-Bloom - when its about to expire from target
      ____________________________________________________________________________________________________

      Druid - Cooldowns

      Import string : https://wago.io/rJnjBqaOZ        ←
      ____________________________________________________________________________________________________
      ____________________________________________________________________________________________________

      Paladin
      Paladin - Healing tool

      Import string : https://wago.io/BkQJU96dZ        ←
      ________________________________________________________
      What's making sound :
      Holyshock - off cooldown
      ____________________________________________________________________________________________________

      Paladin - Cooldowns

      Import string :  https://wago.io/rJibIqTdZ       ←
      ____________________________________________________________________________________________________
      Paladin - Light of Dawn info *additional*

      Import string : https://wago.io/HyrN6y4YZ         ←
      ____________________________________________________________________________________________________
      ____________________________________________________________________________________________________
      Priest
      Holy Priest - Healing Tool

       
      Import string : https://wago.io/H1PU8qa_Z        ←
      ____________________________________________________________________________________________________
      Holy Priest - Cooldowns

      Import string :  https://wago.io/HJvY89au-       ←
      ____________________________________________________________________________________________________
      Holy Priest - Trail of light Talent Tracker *Additional*

      Import string :  https://wago.io/EyclhaZuZ        ←
      ____________________________________________________________________________________________________
       
      Disc Priest - Healing Tool

      Import string :  https://wago.io/SyCn89TdZ        ←
      ____________________________________________________________________________________________________
      ____________________________________________________________________________________________________
       
      Monk
      Since i know little about monk healing, i do not feel like ill be the right person to try and make a weakaura
      for the monk, but i've got a link from someone else his. Since i still want to be some what helpfull to
      any healing class.
      https://wago.io/4yaTFmN6G        ←
      *credits to Emarline*
      ____________________________________________________________________________________________________