Arcane Mage 7.3

[Guest straylight]

I'm sorry to have to come back to this again, but can someone please offer some answers to the questions about the Arcane rotation? Arguing which spec is best can be interesting, but some people (or at least just myself) just wanna play what they enjoy and come to icy-veins for some help with that. Please don't let the spec discussion overshadow more practical things.

Here are the main two questions I asked on page 3 of this thread. For a broader context and other minor questions, see that comment on page 3.

1) Down to what percent of mana am I expected to go to during a Burn phase in Arcane?

2) Do I only cast Blast and Missles during Burn? So delay Supernova until after the end?

[Fluffeh 2]

5 hours ago, Blainie said:

I see. 

This is generally because they eliminate human error. They make up for the fact that an individual might be better at A than B.

In all honesty, I have now reached a point where the minority can fight their corner. It pains me to say it, but there is no point in me replying anymore. The main source of theorycrafting information that 99.9% of the WoW community accepts (sims) is suddenly being thrown out the window because this minority doesn't like what it says.

Your DPS will barely suffer if you take this build, you will do slightly less than with ours and that's it. 

Once again, from Frosted. The stat weights are so similar that, in all honesty, if you want to choose a different gearing strategy, whatever. Do it. The simple truth is Fire > Arcane. That isn't changing.

You could play Arcane as Haste > Vers > Crit > Mastery and it literally wouldn't even matter, because Fire will still win. The weights are basically the same, with a 0.07 difference between the two highest and lowest.

Gear as you wish. When the simulations and testing completing by Furty reflect an increase in damage, the guide will be updated and changed. Until then, it will not be changed without mathematical PROOF of it needing to be done so.

Thanks for your video and good luck with playing Arcane. I hope I do not come off as rude, but I'm sure you can see how frustrating it is to just have people say "sims? nah, those only work for every other class in the game, but not us!".

Good day and thanks for your contribution to the site.

 

 

 

 

 

3

Meh. I've got nothing better to do. While tinkering with gear for more stat diversity I discovered that I may have perhaps undervalued versatility in my initial observations.

 

Your spec in AMR simulator: http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simulator/report/f9991299a1aa43309a0e1c04f80eb0b8

http://imgur.com/X1TLZBX

 

My Spec in simulator: http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simulator/report/ebf4e7dd1e80466698bd06cf6352604f

http://imgur.com/vVsc471

Edited September 20, 2016 by Fluffeh

[Valks 2,407]

49 minutes ago, Guest straylight said:

I'm sorry to have to come back to this again, but can someone please offer some answers to the questions about the Arcane rotation? Arguing which spec is best can be interesting, but some people (or at least just myself) just wanna play what they enjoy and come to icy-veins for some help with that. Please don't let the spec discussion overshadow more practical things.

Sorry! I didn't realise that I had missed your comment, really sorry about that.

49 minutes ago, Guest straylight said:

1) Down to what percent of mana am I expected to go to during a Burn phase in Arcane?

Taking this from the guide:

Quote

Once  Arcane Power ends, and you no longer have the Mana to cast  Arcane Barrage, you should activate  Evocation and fully channel it to restore your Mana to 100%. After this is done, the conserve phase resumes. 

So essentially until you can no longer cast Arcane Barrage due to mana issues.

50 minutes ago, Guest straylight said:

2) Do I only cast Blast and Missles during Burn? So delay Supernova until after the end?

Yes.

[Valks 2,407]

1 minute ago, Fluffeh said:

Meh. I've got nothing better to do. While tinkering with gear for more stat diversity I discovered that I may have perhaps undervalued versatility in my initial observations.

Your spec in AMR simulator: http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simulator/report/f9991299a1aa43309a0e1c04f80eb0b8

http://imgur.com/X1TLZBX

My Spec in simulator: http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simulator/report/ebf4e7dd1e80466698bd06cf6352604f

http://imgur.com/X1TLZBX

Think you've linked the same image twice, so can't see what the difference is!

[Fluffeh 2]

Just now, Blainie said:

Think you've linked the same image twice, so can't see what the difference is!

Fixed

Edited September 20, 2016 by Fluffeh

[Valks 2,407]

2 minutes ago, Fluffeh said:

Fixed

So, what conclusions would you draw from these 2 sims? It's probably better to let you do it for the sake of the people reading.

[Fluffeh 2]

5 minutes ago, Blainie said:

So, what conclusions would you draw from these 2 sims? It's probably better to let you do it for the sake of the people reading.

 

 

That stat differences are almost negligible, but I would still value mastery higher than is listed in the guide. And yes, Fire is still above arcane. This is just for the sake of stat discussion. :)

 

EDIT: Also, after further examination, haste may be located higher in the guides priority listing because of the effect on the trinkets. I'm curious how this will play out with different trinkets able to be gotten in EN and TNH

Edited September 20, 2016 by Fluffeh

[Justez 0]

So I was looking at this guide and there is a mistake on how he read these pants works Mystic Kilt of the Rune Master . It makes it so barrage gets 4 percent of your max mana per arcane stack, not your arcane blast. that would be broken. So I don't think mastery is as bad as you think it is. Especially since this doesn't devalue it at all!

Edited September 20, 2016 by Justez
typo

[Guest straylight]

5 hours ago, Blainie said:

Taking this from the guide:

So essentially until you can no longer cast Arcane Barrage due to mana issues.

So I do NOT drop charges with Barrage at the end of Arcane Power, I just keep going on until I have no more mana and only THEN drop charges? In theory, if RNG is my side I can hover at very little mana but keep casting free arcane missiles as they proc, maybe even a free blast with the legendary bracers every now and then, and then keep dragging on like this until arcane power comes off cd again?

[Valks 2,407]

On 9/20/2016 at 5:23 PM, Guest straylight said:

So I do NOT drop charges with Barrage at the end of Arcane Power, I just keep going on until I have no more mana and only THEN drop charges? In theory, if RNG is my side I can hover at very little mana but keep casting free arcane missiles as they proc, maybe even a free blast with the legendary bracers every now and then, and then keep dragging on like this until arcane power comes off cd again?

Pretty much!

[Tigersharrk 4]

On 9/19/2016 at 7:47 PM, Blainie said:

On 9/19/2016 at 2:25 PM, Tigersharrk said:

Default stat priorities have changed on AMR to Int>Crit>MASTERY>Versa>Haste 

What is the reasoning behind this?

IDK I cant change the default settings why don't you ask them, I simply uploaded my character from the week prior and that was the default stats; which has changed from a week ago. Matter of fact I have to be logged in to customize my stat priorities in which I don't have one so I could not change it at all.

[Tigersharrk 4]

On 9/19/2016 at 10:25 PM, Blainie said:

This is generally because they eliminate human error.

Well thats nice and all but umm last time I checked HUMANS are what play the game not sims so there is error involved...unless your just that perfect, which I doubt. Also...

On 9/19/2016 at 10:25 PM, Blainie said:

The simple truth is Fire > Arcane. That isn't changing.

Not really arguing this as much as I am asking for something thorough, played thru with a little more effort than simmed, copy and pasted now on to Fire. I understand that Fire is better but for the people who don't want to just do what's the "top dps"  like a heard of sheep but stay true to what they have played and continue to play regardless of numbers but still be viable to their raid. If I wanted to strive for top I would put a group of burning balls above my head like everyone else read on how to play fire, since I never have (closest I came was PoM Pyro in BC before they made Arcane have damaging spells) and prolly never will. Fluffy even concedes that Fire is better but that doesn't mean its not insulting to see moderators say to people wanting to play Arcane and needing advice to roll fire. I rather have a guide devoted to each spec to make them a viable member of their raid team regardless of whats mathematically better. That's my issue now, that was my issue in the past is a lack of caring.

[Valks 2,407]

1 hour ago, Tigersharrk said:

IDK I cant change the default settings why don't you ask them, I simply uploaded my character from the week prior and that was the default stats; which has changed from a week ago. Matter of fact I have to be logged in to customize my stat priorities in which I don't have one so I could not change it at all.

You are the one quoting the AMR stats, so I was just wondering why you would simply quote them without any reasoning behind why they are the best. Why is it OK to blindly trust AMR stats, yet you question ours, which are supported by the wonderful world of maths? 

51 minutes ago, Tigersharrk said:

Well thats nice and all but umm last time I checked HUMANS are what play the game not sims so there is error involved...unless your just that perfect, which I doubt. 

I'm not denying that humans play the game, but that's not the point being discussed here. I also don't appreciate how patronising you're trying to be. 

When writing a guide, we have these options:

• Use a simulation that is constructed to perfectly run a rotation without any error over thousands of iterations to get the best possible result in regards to stat weights while being able to perfectly adjust stat values in accordance with the increase and decreases in DPS.
• Employ someone to do all of this manually.
  • Firstly, time. Do you have any idea how long this would take?
  • You would get dreadfully spread results since you cannot touch on every stat value possibility, since you are bound by the parameters of the gear in game.
    • If you can't hit a certain cap due to gear limitations, how are you going to know exactly when that cap is required?
  • Let's say that person is slightly slower on one day, so they perform better on the day they test one talent vs. the other. Skewed results right there.
  • This is just a few of a long list of reasons why you do not test manually.

The comment about me being "that perfect" is simply unnecessary and, to be honest, simply isn't called for.

51 minutes ago, Tigersharrk said:

Not really arguing this as much as I am asking for something thorough, played thru with a little more effort than simmed, copy and pasted now on to Fire.

The guide was created, written, moderated and checked by Furty when he was asked by us to do so. He put exactly the amount of effort expected into it. I'm not sure how a discussion about Arcane has now descended into you basically just insulting the writer of the guide and calling him lazy, but OK.

51 minutes ago, Tigersharrk said:

I rather have a guide devoted to each spec to make them a viable member of their raid team regardless of whats mathematically better.

Ah, I wasn't aware you were new to the site. Here's our updated guides for every Mage spec, as well as every other class in the game:

https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/class-guides

51 minutes ago, Tigersharrk said:

That's my issue now, that was my issue in the past is a lack of caring.

Feel free to look back at the posts you have made. Every single time you have complained, I have answered you. I have spent time during my work day sitting here and ensuring that you received a proper response, addressing your points and giving you the proof behind what we have shown in the guide.

Every single time you have shot down my proof, but not with proof of your own. Instead, you simply say that it can't be right and find something else to pick at.

The fact that you honestly believe that we don't care goes to show how little you have paid attention here. I have gone out of my way to do the research that you could have done yourself, by simply googling "Arcane Mage Stat Weights". Here, I'll do it for you:

Of the top 5 results, 3 are guides. Icy Veins, Noxxic, Wowhead.

Every single one of them lists Versatility as the top stat for single target encounters as an Arcane Mage. Please tell me, WITH PROOF, why you believe every single one of those guides to be wrong.

Please also note that I could have sat here and simply ignored you. I don't want to do that, because my position in this site is all about helping people. I like to see people walk away happy, but honestly, I don't think I can help you. I have given you the proof you want countless times, but you refuse to acknowledge it because it simply doesn't align with what you believe.

I'm sorry if you believe me to be rude, uncaring, whatever. I stick by my position and will only request for Furty to update this guide when you can provide genuine proof that disproves what you are discussing that he can analyse. 

If you feel that you cannot use the site anymore, then I apologise. I would imagine that you would use another guides site to find your Arcane stat weights, but unfortunately, they agree with us on Versatility being the main stat for Arcane.

Thank you for your comment and good day. 

[Valks 2,407]

If any guests are looking for the discussion concerning the percentile graphic, you can find it in the General Discuissions board here.

[evanbloom 1]

With the new hotfixes coming next week (notably 20% buff to mastery effects for Arcane), I wonder if the stat priority will change significantly for Arcane. I've read this thread and people were saying that mastery was undertuned for Arcane. I wonder if this hotfix will make it better.

Edited September 24, 2016 by evanbloom

[Zadina 923]

Primary sims are showing that Mastery is indeed pulling ahead now, but it's too early to tell. More concrete info tomorrow or on Monday.

[Valks 2,407]

3 hours ago, evanbloom said:

With the new hotfixes coming next week (notably 20% buff to mastery effects for Arcane), I wonder if the stat priority will change significantly for Arcane. I've read this thread and people were saying that mastery was undertuned for Arcane. I wonder if this hotfix will make it tune it better.

It's very likely, yes. Furty will update the guide as soon as information becomes more clear. Currently, writers/theorycrafters don't want to make big statements about it being "definitely" better, just in case things still change. Lots more testing to be done, but fingers crossed.

[Valks 2,407]

Generic comment being mass posted over the comments threads guys.

We are aware of the changes and our writers are working hard to update the guides to suit what has changed. Currently, there is a lot of work still to be done and it's unlikely that every guide will be up-to-date immediately. Expect a flood of updates over the coming days that will answer all of your questions about what is now best after X change, in time for the reset next week.

Thanks for your understanding and patience.

[CptHowdy498 0]

Thank you Blainie for taking the time to respond to all of us, looking forward to reading the new stat updates. Is there any idea how the increase to mastery will affect the conserve phase yet? Will it go back to pre Legion, build 4 charges, Arcane Barrage, repeat and still maintain 90% mana? With the changes in Legion I know that I was not able to maintain the same conserve phase as WoD because my mana could not keep up.

[Valks 2,407]

10 hours ago, CptHowdy498 said:

Thank you Blainie for taking the time to respond to all of us, looking forward to reading the new stat updates. Is there any idea how the increase to mastery will affect the conserve phase yet? Will it go back to pre Legion, build 4 charges, Arcane Barrage, repeat and still maintain 90% mana? With the changes in Legion I know that I was not able to maintain the same conserve phase as WoD because my mana could not keep up.

I imagine it will depend on just how bad the conserve phase was for you prior to the buffs to Mastery. It's a 20% buff to the effectiveness of Mastery, which means 20% more mana regen etc.

Whether or not that is enough to bring it back to pre-Legion levels, we'll see. I'm not an Arcane player, so I haven't seen how bad the regen was with the old Mastery.

[Guest LordTakeo]

Hey Blainie!

Don't worry about the impatient people waiting for mastery stat changes being mentioned. 

Cause, -if- people are interested in seeing "whats about mastery?", they check the comments like me here now, and will be at ease, most of the time. 

Anyways, to answer some doubts. As a passionate arcane player, I welcome a shift to more mana regen. I can already use an almost perfect timed Burn phase to 0, since the cd of Evocation lines up faaar smoother now, just from switching in Crit/mastery fire gear to the arcane specc.

I'm quite happy to not have wasted my artifact power in Aluneth!

[Valks 2,407]

3 hours ago, Guest LordTakeo said:

Don't worry about the impatient people waiting for mastery stat changes being mentioned. 

That's all updated now, so hopefully they'll be slightly happier with the new stat priority after the hotfixes!

3 hours ago, Guest LordTakeo said:

Anyways, to answer some doubts. As a passionate arcane player, I welcome a shift to more mana regen. I can already use an almost perfect timed Burn phase to 0, since the cd of Evocation lines up faaar smoother now, just from switching in Crit/mastery fire gear to the arcane specc.

Interesting! Thanks for sharing that. What does your Haste level sit at, if anything?

[Guest Inam]

What makes Mark of the Claw the better neck enchant for us, compared to Mark of the Hidden Satyr? Are there problems with Satyr's proc rate, or its interaction with our CDs (I assume that it acts like trinkets and gets buffed up by RoP and AP)?

[Valks 2,407]

36 minutes ago, Guest Inam said:

What makes Mark of the Claw the better neck enchant for us, compared to Mark of the Hidden Satyr? Are there problems with Satyr's proc rate, or its interaction with our CDs (I assume that it acts like trinkets and gets buffed up by RoP and AP)?

I have left a note for Furty to take a look and check. Hopefully we'll get a response for you ASAP, but keep in mind that he has started Mythic progression with Serenity today, so he'll be super busy!

[Saffina 1]

The thing is though, if you don't have a fire off spec is it plausible to just go nuts with Mastery?

Upto a point where you have 50% master and 11% crit, or would it be better to lower mastery and go for some crit at that point?

 

i just wonder since both of them are basically weighed the same

Edited September 28, 2016 by Saffina
typo