Frost Mage 7.3

[Guest Gloob]

The statement that the frost spec isn't viable for high end raiding is so wrong...

Just look at the latest mythic raiding logs in NH at 90% bracket... There's a really high skill cap on the frost spec right now and it's very punishing if you don't play it properly but with the right talent setup for each fight it is really competitive and probably the best of all 3 specs (of course i'm not talking about Skorpyron where fire shines...) 

Just came back from a break and I was around 480k yesterday on NM botanist at 872 ilvl without any bis legendary or set bonus (kil jaeden trinket and norganon boots)... I could have done better with optimized talents and gear... (I had my old 7.1 stat set)

[Valks 2,373]

46 minutes ago, Guest Gloob said:

The statement that the frost spec isn't viable for high end raiding is so wrong...

i think this has just been overlooked during the updates of 7.1.5 - it definitely can be very strong on certain fights. It does still lose out in certain situations (Skorp is a big one), but I'll ask Furty to update the description.

[Guest Gloob]

I just checked the latest logs and thought I could summarize what came out of them. On heroic difficulty at 95th percentile over the last week here's what we find : 

Skorpyron : 

1st : Fire (obviously)

2nd : Arcane

3rd : Frost

Anomaly : 

1st : Arcane 

2nd : Frost

3rd : Fire

Triliax : 

1st : Arcane

2nd : Frost

3rd : Fire (all 3 specs are pretty close to each other)

Aluriel : 

1st : Arcane

2nd : Fire

3rd : Frost

Tichondius :

1st : Fire

2nd : Arcane

3rd : Frost

Now things start to become interesting

traeus : 

1st : Frost

2nd : Arcane

3rd : Fire

Krosus : 

1st : Frost

2nd : Arcane

3rd : Fire

Botanist : 

All 3 specs are really close to each other with Arcane being slightly ahead

Elisande :

1st : Frost dominates clearly

2nd : Fire 

3rd : Arcane (dead last)

Guldan : 

1st : Frost

2nd : Fire

3rd : Arcane

As we can see, frost is  the clear winner on the last fights, we clearly see that the harder the fight, the better frost performs. And on Mythic difficulty frost is ahead on every single fight except Skorpyron and aluriel.  So top players perform better with frost.

We have to take the lack of artifact power in consideration too, as frost was by far the least played spec of all 3, so most of the heroic fights will probably have people lagging behind in terms of AP. 

When I look at all the logs from all the fights in NH, I see that frost performs better than fire. 

I'm pretty confident in saying that for once, Blizzard did things so right that all 3 mage specs are currently viable, Frost being the most difficult spec of all 3. 

This guide definately needs an update... Also when i enter PUG groups, other mages are always impressed by my numbers as a frost mage considering my item level and current AP (only 36 traits in weapon as I have 4 other 110 characters and I did grind my fire weapon's AP to 35 so I can switch on fights like Skorp).

 

Thanks for reading ;) 

[Valks 2,373]

3 hours ago, Guest Gloob said:

As we can see, frost is  the clear winner on the last fights, we clearly see that the harder the fight, the better frost performs

This isn't quite correct - it has nothing to do with the difficulty of the fight, just whether or not Frost works well there. Krosus is certainly easier than, for example, Tich. They are just different fights. 

As for the update, I've put in a note to Furty concerning updates to the guide. 

3 hours ago, Guest Gloob said:

We have to take the lack of artifact power in consideration too, as frost was by far the least played spec of all 3, so most of the heroic fights will probably have people lagging behind in terms of AP. 

This is no longer a real consideration when looking at higher logs - given that most people have 20-25 AK, you can farm to max traits in less than a week (quite a few people have done this when their chosen spec got destroyed in .1.5).

[Guest Gloob]

2 hours ago, Blainie said:

This is no longer a real consideration when looking at higher logs - given that most people have 20-25 AK, you can farm to max traits in less than a week (quite a few people have done this when their chosen spec got destroyed in .1.5).

Yes, on higher logs for mythic progress guilds, not everyone has the playtime to farm 54 traits in a week, I certainly don't and even if I did I have a life outside of WoW, that's why I do take this in consideration on heroic fights. Guild progressing on heroics and normal mode right now usually don't play 24/7 and most of them don't have their old main spec maxed out either. 

 

2 hours ago, Blainie said:

This isn't quite correct - it has nothing to do with the difficulty of the fight, just whether or not Frost works well there. Krosus is certainly easier than, for example, Tich. They are just different fights. 

 

 

Yeah my statement isn't quite right, and not really what I meant in the first place (english is clearly not my first language so I'd like to apologize for that). What I wanted to say is that on the least killed mobs on heroic mode frost mage performance  goes up so the best heroic guilds out there have more experience than those struggling on etraeus so they tend to master the frost spec better. And Tichondrius isn't quite a good example as it is clearly an AoE heavy fight for ranged DPS so frost mage is a little behind but not too much. 

 

2 hours ago, Blainie said:

As for the update, I've put in a note to Furty concerning updates to the guide. 

6 hours ago, Guest Gloob said:

 

I hear you, I just wanted to clarify my earlier statement by not just saying "frost mages are good" without argueing at all. 

 

(By the way, I might consider registering to the damn board so it will be easyer to communicate :) )

[Valks 2,373]

12 minutes ago, Guest Gloob said:

Yes, on higher logs for mythic progress guilds, not everyone has the playtime to farm 54 traits in a week, I certainly don't and even if I did I have a life outside of WoW, that's why I do take this in consideration on heroic fights. Guild progressing on heroics and normal mode right now usually don't play 24/7 and most of them don't have their old main spec maxed out either. 

For sure, but I think once you start looking at 95th percentile, especially a few weeks after NH has been out, you're going to start seeing those more hardcore players rather than people that play mainly for fun.

12 minutes ago, Guest Gloob said:

Yeah my statement isn't quite right, and not really what I meant in the first place (english is clearly not my first language so I'd like to apologize for that). What I wanted to say is that on the least killed mobs on heroic mode frost mage performance  goes up so the best heroic guilds out there have more experience than those struggling on etraeus so they tend to master the frost spec better. And Tichondrius isn't quite a good example as it is clearly an AoE heavy fight for ranged DPS so frost mage is a little behind but not too much. 

Ah okay, I see what you mean now. Thanks for sharing everything! It's definitely worth an update and that will be happening in the future, just need to get Furty on it! :)

PS: definitely register, it's so much easier! ;D

[Gloob 2]

17 minutes ago, Blainie said:

For sure, but I think once you start looking at 95th percentile, especially a few weeks after NH has been out, you're going to start seeing those more hardcore players rather than people that play mainly for fun.

30 minutes ago, Guest Gloob said:

Yes but I tend to be around 98% percentile as a casual player and a shitty weapon :D 

[Valks 2,373]

6 minutes ago, Gloob said:

Yes but I tend to be around 98% percentile as a casual player and a shitty weapon :D 

I'd say you're definitely the exception then! Thanks for your comments nonetheless, I'll make sure it gets looked at and updated!

[Gloob 2]

No I used to be hardcore, but now I'm old with a family and a business to run :)

And thanks to you for taking the time to read what I had to say haha

Edited February 8, 2017 by Gloob

[Gloob 2]

A good example of the skill cap I'm talking about. I just killed Triliax in LFR, no flask / food buff. 

 

The other mage has both bis legendary for the TV build we both had. See the huge difference? I didn't have more FoF procs than usual

and also attached what simcraft sims on an ultraxion fight movement (and triliax isn't really a static fight like ultraxion...)

[Valks 2,373]

12 hours ago, Gloob said:

See the huge difference?

Yeah, I see what you mean. It perhaps allows experienced players to flourish and excel while still letting other players perform fine.

[Gloob 2]

2 hours ago, Blainie said:

It perhaps allows experienced players to flourish and excel while still letting other players perform fine.

I don't know, I still don't get why blizz dumbed down almost all of the other specs in the game while stilli having such a punishing output if you don't play it perfectly... 

Either way I don't really understand how people can fail that much on such a straight forward rotation. 

[Valks 2,373]

14 minutes ago, Gloob said:

Either way I don't really understand how people can fail that much on such a straight forward rotation. 

It most likely occurs at the padding part and playing to your spec's strengths. Frost is very, very good at cleaving, right? We even have a section dedicated to ensuring cleave damage. I would assume people don't position and prepare to ensure maximum cleave in those small windows where bosses do allow it, even for a few seconds. 

Positioning is always a problem for inexperienced players, especially when on a fight that they don't understand fully, so that's also a big factor I'm sure, especially for Mages. Yes, you have Ice Floes, but if you are constantly having to move a tiny bit to avoid a mechanic that you didn't know was coming, you're going to be losing a lot of DPS, especially if you have to interrupt a cast. 

[Gloob 2]

Frost's strenghts are clearly single target and 2 to 4 stacked target cleave. 

I recently got used to shimmer personnaly when I need to avoid a mechanic, blinking without interrupting your cast if you position right is clearly a winner; with 2 charges you usually always have it up when needed (having norganon's boots help tho if it isn't back up in time or if you fail). Anyway, mastering your blink is key here for me so you know exactly where you land. 

But outside of that, when you get used to the fights you can save some procs just before something happens. (or just watch DBM timers...)

 

Edited February 9, 2017 by Gloob

[Valks 2,373]

23 hours ago, Gloob said:

Frost's strenghts are clearly single target and 2 to 4 stacked target cleave. 

Definitely. Once you have those cleave-situations, you can seamlessly swap from ST to cleave, nothing incredibly difficult is even required.

[Guest Frostbing]

I just wonder if there is a race, that are better for frost mage if you play alliance?

 

Cant deside between worgen or fat panda.

[Duren 0]

I've been playing frost mage now for a few weeks and been tweaking a lot and doing a lot of simulations and thought I would share my thoughts. Please note that most of my testing is done in mythic+s right now as I get the most exposure but I've noted a few things that I'll share. I started initially thinking that frost mages don't do great damage as thats what most people say and then that they don't do good aoe damage. Both of these things I've shown to be wrong. I'm now running usually first in damage on mythic+s on mobs and bosses with people the same ilvl or higher than myself (currently 886)

A link to my ilvl and kit (Taresti)

Important things to note. I only have 1 legendary but its a really good one. Shard of the Exodar. Also I have 4 pieces t19 which also means I want to use frozen orb as much as possible which also is another reason I chose Artic Gale (see below)

Talent build

My Talent Build

Ray of Frost: When used correctly and at the right time DPS sky rockets (sometimes up to 1.2m). You really only get to use it on large mobs and bosses but also good for bolstering mobs)
Shimmer: A necessity for any mage really and just super important for dodging without interrupting casts
Mirrors Image: Incanters flow is the easy option here as its passive but I've gone for mirrors image as after simulations and testing the DPS is higher EDIT: After changing the talents around there is a slight difference in DPS with incanters flow being 5k higher. Though what I see in the graphs is that its more stable damage which is probably good in general as mages get picked upon for low damage when they don't have the extra damage from timewarp.
Ice Nova: Really good for burst cleave damage on trash and a little extra damage on bosses occasionally as its an instant cast. Splitting Ice for the extra 5% damage and ONLY one other target at 80% damage wasn't that great for trash mobs. Ice Nova blasts everything in the area and freezes it in place which can give you an extra crit on your ice lance if you're fast.
Frigid Winds:I took this as slowing enemies is always good but you may want to take ring of frost. I found ice ward to be useless mostly and unused.
Artic Gale: Now this was an important one for me as when I discovered that each tick that blizzard does damage reduces the cooldown of frozen orb and as more mobs equals more ticks equals another frozen orb fast which for mythic+ or even bosses is more damage. So with artic gale not only is the damage increased by 30% but also its range so you can catch things easier even in raids (for example bilewater on helya - I could damage up to 3 adds spaced out with correct positioning)
Comet Storm: Now this was a choice between Glacial Spike and Comet storm and comet storm won out by far. I ran simulations and each time Comet Storm came out on top plus for mythic+ for me its 75k x 7 (1/2m) hits on all mobs in the area. When combined with ice Nova and frozen orb and blizzard mobs just disintegrate. EDIT: You will probably not choose this for boss encounters that are single target and don't require cleave. Though for bosses in NH you'd like to change around per encounter to lengthen your icy veins.
 

Rotation

I use icy veins and mirror image on trash all the time but I time it so that I'm good to go for the boss fights else you lose a lot. If a standard mythic+ run will last you 20 mins say unless you're doing maw which is 15. You can use your abilities a lot. I'm also dropping in potions of prolonged power for that 2500 stat boost. 

Your frost bolt/ice lance combo is to help you proc flurry and to reduce your icy veins as well so that you can use it on trash

When Ebon Bolt is cast its normally being cast before the pull on trash or timed just before the pull so that I don't lose time on other things

My use of blizzard is used to reduce the cooldown on frozen orb - even on bosses

If there is another class in the party able to cast timewarp/bloodlust etc, I normally let them do it as then I can use my one during the fight due to the legendary so I get a double haste benefit during the encounter. If its a long fight I may even save it for my second icy veins

Trash - small
Frozen Orb - Comet Storm - Ice Nova - Blizzard - Ebon Bolt - ice lance - Frost bolt - ice lance (flurry and ice lance when it procs)
You'll then go into repeating to cast blizzard to reduce your cooldown on frozen orb, and also your Comet Storm and Ice Nova on cooldown.

Trash (Large) and bosses

For bosses Pot before pull then after pull - Mirror Image - Icy Veins - Time Warp

Frozen Orb - Comet Storm - Ice Nova - Blizzard - Ray of frost - Blizzard - Ebon Bolt - Frost bolt - ice lance (flurry and ice lance when it procs)
You'll then go into repeating to cast blizzard, frost bolt and ice lance. Then just watching your cooldowns for Ebon Bolt, Comet Storm, Ice Nova and frozen orb.

----

Closing Note

Hopefully I've explained it well enough so that other people can benefit. I tried the rotations outlined and found them to be really lacking in most cases. I think as blizzard has been missed out and even on bosses it does a huge amount of damage and reduces frozen orb cooldown which is what I think helps frost mages a lot. I am aware I've missed out cone of cold in my rotations but I found the damage completely worthless and the slowing effects weren't worth it.

It is a lot of spells to be dealing with but completely possible. I've had to map everything on ctrl and shift keys to make sure that I can get to everything easily during an encounter. I've shared keymaps below as they may even help people but normally I've found people will have their own that they feel comfortable with.

Ctrl 1 - Comet Storm
Ctrl 2 - Counterspell
Ctrl 3 - Mirror Image
Ctrl 4 - Icy Veins
Ctrl 5 - Timewarp

Shift 1 - Flurry
Shift 2 - Icy Nova
Shift 3 - Shimmer
Shift 4 - Ice Barrier
Shift 5 - Ebon Bolt
Shift 6 - Ice Block

1 - frost bolt
2 - frost nova
3 - ice lance
4 - ray of frost
5 - frozen orb
6 - blizzard

Edited March 1, 2017 by Duren

[Valks 2,373]

On 2/21/2017 at 2:20 PM, Guest Frostbing said:

I just wonder if there is a race, that are better for frost mage if you play alliance?

The difference is absolutely minute - pick what you enjoy! :)

[Valks 2,373]

On 3/1/2017 at 10:22 AM, Duren said:

Hopefully I've explained it well enough so that other people can benefit. I tried the rotations outlined and found them to be really lacking in most cases.

Most definitely a huge help to many that have seen the post! Thanks for sharing it :) Our changes in 7.2 should put things up to people's expectations once again!

[Valks 2,373]

We are currently in the process of updating our guides in preparation for the release of 7.2 - please understand that we will not be answering questions in this section about "What is better for 7.2?" prior to the patch release, since all the information will be available when the patch goes live. Please be patient and thanks for waiting!

[evanbloom 1]

I'm trying to understand a rotation thing.

Quote

 

1. Cast  Ebonbolt if it is off cooldown. It is ideal to cast  Ebonbolt with  Brain Freeze; you will need to immediately follow the Ebonbolt with  Flurry and you will get both  Brain Freeze procs as well as shattering the  Ebonbolt cast. You want to always Shatter the Ebonbolt with this proc.

 

Where it says ”ideal to cast Ebonbolt with Brain Freeze”, does it mean you should have a Brain Freeze proc before casting Ebonbolt? Or does it refer to the Brain Freeze proc generated by the Ebonbolt? So is it something like the following?

1. Frostbolt till Brain Freeze 1
2. Brain Freeze 1
3. Ebonbolt
4. Flurry
5. BF 1 shatters Ebonbolt
6. Ebonbolt generates Brain Freeze 2
7. BF 2 shatters Flurry

[Valks 2,373]

4 hours ago, evanbloom said:

Where it says ”ideal to cast Ebonbolt with Brain Freeze”, does it mean you should have a Brain Freeze proc before casting Ebonbolt?

Exactly. It ideally wants the Ebonbolt to be in the air while you cast Flurry. The Flurry will hit, you'll get Winter's Chill on the target, Ebonbolt will shatter and you'll immediately get another BF proc to use on Flurry.

What you've listed is exactly correct.

[evanbloom 1]

Thanks for confirming. Is there any way to track or to tell whether I'm pulling it off correctly? Besides poring over data from Skada :P

[Guest Alex]

Hi quick question. I'm still gearing and I'm currently at 893 ilvl but I've got a lot of mastery in build - 37%. 22 % crit and 20% haste.

In the last talent section, you said that glacial spike requires a mastery build. Should I go for that + splitting ice  until I get more crit, in your opinion?

Thanks in advance.

[Valks 2,373]

On 3/31/2017 at 1:33 PM, evanbloom said:

Thanks for confirming. Is there any way to track or to tell whether I'm pulling it off correctly? Besides poring over data from Skada :P

Sorry, bit late! Uh, you can check your cast sequence through one of those addons? Or you'll know if it works since you'll get the double insta-Flurry.