Jump to content
FORUMS
Damien

Subtlety Rogue 7.3

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Furty said:

Most of the incoming changes should be live now :) There will be more updates, as always, as we learn more and I and other hardcore players become more comfortable with the changes and discover new tricks! 

Awesome, thank you! Will be interesting to see how talents/legendaries scale with ToS gear. 

On talent selection note, a quick question. In your experience over the past couple of days, how big is the damage difference between using Master of Subtlety/Nightstalker/Dark Shadow vs. Weaponmaster/Shadow Focus/Enveloping Shadows for ST raid encounters? Admittedly I haven't tried the latter talent set-up yet, but MoS/Nightstalker/DS has worked quite well for me over the past couple of days. It seems to me that the % damage increase talents would scale better with improved gear (that's my assumption, anyway). 

Edited by Kryptknight

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Kryptknight said:

Awesome, thank you! Will be interesting to see how talents/legendaries scale with ToS gear. 

On talent selection note, a quick question. In your experience over the past couple of days, how big is the damage difference between using Master of Subtlety/Nightstalker/Dark Shadow vs. Weaponmaster/Shadow Focus/Enveloping Shadows for ST raid encounters? Admittedly I haven't tried the latter talent set-up yet, but MoS/Nightstalker/DS has worked quite well for me over the past couple of days. It seems to me that the % damage increase talents would scale better with improved gear (that's my assumption, anyway). 

My best experience has come with Weaponmaster/Shadow Focus/Enveloping Shadows but I see Dark Shadow popping up with comparable numbers to mine about as often as I see Enveloping Shadows on WCL, so we may need a slightly larger sample size. Personally I really like the feel of having dance up near constantly for the first 30 seconds of the encounter and it seems to be equally potent on short and long fights. Maybe experiment with your latter setup and see how it feels. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd love to weigh in on it, but I'm still 3 days out from having internet access so I can play. Fml

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Tsuid

I feel like Subterfuge is a must have. Unless i'm doing something wrong, i cant use 4x SS + finisher during dance if i dont go Subterfuge. No matter how high on energy i am when i enter dance, its a GCD issue. And i swear i'm spamming pretty hard. Maybe it comes from bar switching taking a little time and fucking up my dance ? Is there a way to create a 1 button Backstab / SS macro according to stance ? I'm using bartender and both backstab and SS are bind on 3.

An other thing with 7.2.5 is energy management. It feels so good ! I even find myself with so much energy making me cap at 100 for a few seconds and i probably miss out a lot of backstab to expend energy before going shadow dance or using a finisher. Is there any rule of thumb about what to do when u are on 70+ energy // high cp with new master of shadows mechanics ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Guest Tsuid said:

I feel like Subterfuge is a must have. Unless i'm doing something wrong, i cant use 4x SS + finisher during dance if i dont go Subterfuge. No matter how high on energy i am when i enter dance, its a GCD issue. And i swear i'm spamming pretty hard. Maybe it comes from bar switching taking a little time and fucking up my dance ? Is there a way to create a 1 button Backstab / SS macro according to stance ? I'm using bartender and both backstab and SS are bind on 3.

An other thing with 7.2.5 is energy management. It feels so good ! I even find myself with so much energy making me cap at 100 for a few seconds and i probably miss out a lot of backstab to expend energy before going shadow dance or using a finisher. Is there any rule of thumb about what to do when u are on 70+ energy // high cp with new master of shadows mechanics ?

Yeah, you can only fit 5 skills into Dance when it lasts 5 seconds. That said, while Subterfuge might not be ideal, it isn't an awful option in any scenario. 

It won't quite feel right at first, but going SS > SS > Finisher > SS is just fine. Watch your CPs carefully though, because Shadow Techniques can proc and cause you to waste CPs. If you end up with 5 or 6 before your 2nd SS, make sure you dump CPs before using SS (your Dance will look like SS > Finisher > SS > SS as a result)

I don't really understand your question in the second part. You're asking what to do with higher Energy and CPs? How did you get in that position? Either you're spending Energy to generate CPs, and are therefore low on it and high on CPs, or you've just spent your CPs and are low on them but high on Energy. The only advice I can give to avoid this is to use BS a little earlier, and play Sub more to get a feel for when Shadow Techniques procs. You shouldn't end up in a situation where using Evis will cap you

Just a quick note with regards to Energy, you should be careful about Goremaw's and the trait that makes your finishers free - you'll want to dump quite a bit of Energy in this window, as Evis won't spend 35 before restoring 30-36. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Tsuid
Quote

Just a quick note with regards to Energy, you should be careful about Goremaw's and the trait that makes your finishers free - you'll want to dump quite a bit of Energy in this window, as Evis won't spend 35 before restoring 30-36. 

yeah Goremaw is part of the energy overload. When i proc goremaw + symbols of death +  master of shadow the energy regen is insane and sometimes i end up if too much of everything and feel like im wasting energy or cp

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Guest Tsuid said:

yeah Goremaw is part of the energy overload. When i proc goremaw + symbols of death +  master of shadow the energy regen is insane and sometimes i end up if too much of everything and feel like im wasting energy or cp

Yeah it's a lot, you just gotta prioritize your spending. Capping Energy isn't a bad thing, really, it's just not ideal. More like wasting potential resources (ie: you could be gaining some), whereas overcapping on CPs is wasting actual resources because you spent the Energy to get nothing

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest V6ix

I am 912 sub rogue and the new  patch changes are amazing. Gloomblade is way to go in any situation if you don't wanna have that headache of stupid backstab positioning. not sure why icy veins talent build info is "old" probably thats why those builds sucks balls according to what it is now. I would love very much that nightstalker would indeed do 50% more dmg lol. deeper strategam is insane with legendary ring that gives vigor talent, otherwise i find energy starvation, very clunky skill usage flow without vigor and dps loss. Not sure how weaponmaster with that insane 6% chance is way to go lol. You must have haste stacked to 30% or something.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Guest V6ix said:

I am 912 sub rogue and the new  patch changes are amazing. Gloomblade is way to go in any situation if you don't wanna have that headache of stupid backstab positioning. not sure why icy veins talent build info is "old" probably thats why those builds sucks balls according to what it is now. I would love very much that nightstalker would indeed do 50% more dmg lol. deeper strategam is insane with legendary ring that gives vigor talent, otherwise i find energy starvation, very clunky skill usage flow without vigor and dps loss. Not sure how weaponmaster with that insane 6% chance is way to go lol. You must have haste stacked to 30% or something.

Glad you're enjoying the changes, I know I am. Gloomblade still isn't viable in any progression environment but it's fine for casual play. If you would like supporting empirical evidence you can check some of the top logs here:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/11#class=Rogue&spec=Subtlety&partition=3

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Tsuid

Anyone else experiencing a shift in stat weight from Mastery / Smthing to Crit / Versa ? Most of the Raidbots sims i ran the past few days surprised me with high crit gear being better than mastery, so i ran a Stat Weight sim and here is what i've got :

  • Agi : 19.98
  • Crit : 15.56
  • Vers : 14.85
  • Mastery : 14.02
  • Haste : 12.19

My rogue is 896 ilvl and was mostly oriented towards mastery gear. Here are my current stats : 31 / 9 / 83 / 6 - (Crit / Haste / Mast / Vers)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Those values are basically identical. It is likely due to you just not having a lot of Crit, so until you get a little more, it will be ever so slightly more valuable than some other stats. With those weights, you're basically going to end up picking the highest ilevel one piece of loot

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, Guest Tsuid said:

Anyone else experiencing a shift in stat weight from Mastery / Smthing to Crit / Versa ? Most of the Raidbots sims i ran the past few days surprised me with high crit gear being better than mastery, so i ran a Stat Weight sim and here is what i've got :

  • Agi : 19.98
  • Crit : 15.56
  • Vers : 14.85
  • Mastery : 14.02
  • Haste : 12.19

My rogue is 896 ilvl and was mostly oriented towards mastery gear. Here are my current stats : 31 / 9 / 83 / 6 - (Crit / Haste / Mast / Vers)

I had a similar question the other day. My crit, mastery, and vers are nearly identical. I did a lot of different gear swaps yesterday and vers and mastery went back and forth as the best. Currently there is a .05 difference for me between the two with crit slightly more than 1 pt behind. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I took a look at warcraftlogs (as well as personnal tryal) for ToS yesterday and saw that most of sub rogues are playing the burst template. I was wondering if we should use DfA on CD and diring opener sequence?

It would be nice to update rotation page with mentions for this build. I think the vanish part is also missing from the new opener sequence!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Silvya said:

I took a look at warcraftlogs (as well as personnal tryal) for ToS yesterday and saw that most of sub rogues are playing the burst template. I was wondering if we should use DfA on CD and diring opener sequence?

It would be nice to update rotation page with mentions for this build. I think the vanish part is also missing from the new opener sequence!

Just noticed this earlier as well. I got FotD in my M+ cache so I'd been using that this week and the burst template seems quite strong with it in particular. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Silvya said:

I took a look at warcraftlogs (as well as personnal tryal) for ToS yesterday and saw that most of sub rogues are playing the burst template. I was wondering if we should use DfA on CD and diring opener sequence?

It would be nice to update rotation page with mentions for this build. I think the vanish part is also missing from the new opener sequence!

You want to use DfA inside Shadow Dance or from Vanish.

From what I found yesterday going through Heroic, Energy is no longer an issue and as such Master of Shadows is less effective than it used to be.

Personally I was playing 1-1-1-3-2-1-3 for talents, and yes there should be mention of playstyle changes when using this build

Quick reminder that this thread is for comments about the guide specifically and not for overall discussion of the spec and how to play it. You're all more than welcome over at the Rogue Forums, where I'll be glad to go on for hours about how good Sub is and offer any pointers that I can.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Carrn said:

You want to use DfA inside Shadow Dance or from Vanish.

From what I found yesterday going through Heroic, Energy is no longer an issue and as such Master of Shadows is less effective than it used to be.

Personally I was playing 1-1-1-3-2-1-3 for talents, and yes there should be mention of playstyle changes when using this build

Quick reminder that this thread is for comments about the guide specifically and not for overall discussion of the spec and how to play it. You're all more than welcome over at the Rogue Forums, where I'll be glad to go on for hours about how good Sub is and offer any pointers that I can.

Sure, but I thought this had to do with the guide as it imply some changes to the rotation page :) I'll eventually open a debate on the other forum section about when we should use DfA

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Silvya said:

Sure, but I thought this had to do with the guide as it imply some changes to the rotation page :) I'll eventually open a debate on the other forum section about when we should use DfA

Yeah it wasn't directed at you specifically, I just didn't want the thread to get derailed too much. I actually started going on about how and why the talents I was running seems super useful etc; my comment was directed at me as much as anyone else :P

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For relics simcrafting, it seems that soulshadow is bis : https://ravenholdt-tc.github.io/relics_rogue_subtlety_t19.html

Seems logic with bracers being bis now and elysandre trinket we can be get at least 50% uptime on shadow blades.

There's also a bug with DfA and weapon master that prevent the evisc part from happening when the cleave part procs. (https://github.com/Ravenholdt-TC/Rogue/issues/25)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ι see many to choose mark of death with dark shadow build. Raidbots and simulationcraft and ask mr robot mark of death sims too high . I read your guide and mark of death you said that is not a good choice. I m so confused can u help me?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Septic7 said:

Ι see many to choose mark of death with dark shadow build. Raidbots and simulationcraft and ask mr robot mark of death sims too high . I read your guide and mark of death you said that is not a good choice. I m so confused can u help me?

I'm not sure why the guide doesn't cover the Dark Shadow build. It is one that I quite enjoy and find is very useful, and as I said earlier it should be included.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Adenine

Hey, just wanted to say that in relic part of the guide, the soul shadows are twice, in both 1st and 7th place.

Also wanted to ask for opinion on talent choice for Avatar and Maiden boss encounters, mainly in the maiden bossfight, you are not able to backstab from behind whole time, is it worth to roll gloomblade there? Open to any thoughts

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Spanosa

On the Death For Above section with Shadow Dance, it says to use Shadow Dance shortly before landing to get the bonus 30% damage. This does not appear possible. You cannot activate Shadow Dance when using Death from Above. Am I missing something?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey i'd like a little bit more infos about the Dark shadows / DFA build :

Quote
Quote

You should always delay Death from Above Icon Death from Above so that it can be used with Shadow Dance Icon Shadow Dance and Symbols of Death Icon Symbols of Death.

 

I love this build but i used to cast Symbols of Death whenever its off-cd and i'm low(ish) on energy in order to get as much casts as possible during fight. Same with DFA. My numbers were decent doing this way.

Now i'm trying to combo for the big numbers : SD > SoD > DFA (with Finality buff / Shurikens up if possible) but i end up waiting so much sometimes. Is it a matter of feeling or is there a specific rotation in order to set this up much easier ? (Like DFA when SoD is on 10sec cooldown or something). I feel like doing sometimes DFA out of dance or in dance but without Sod, all according to situation in order to not fuck up my cycle is more rewarding than going for a psychorigid strategy but i might be wrong.

Btw can you link me a way to setup Powa for a nicer Finality buff display ? I can't manage to do it myself and didnt find any Powa guides, everyone seems to be using WeakAuras :(

Thx guys !

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Tsuid said:

I love this build but i used to cast Symbols of Death whenever its off-cd and i'm low(ish) on energy in order to get as much casts as possible during fight. Same with DFA. My numbers were decent doing this way.

Now i'm trying to combo for the big numbers : SD > SoD > DFA (with Finality buff / Shurikens up if possible) but i end up waiting so much sometimes. Is it a matter of feeling or is there a specific rotation in order to set this up much easier ? (Like DFA when SoD is on 10sec cooldown or something). I feel like doing sometimes DFA out of dance or in dance but without Sod, all according to situation in order to not fuck up my cycle is more rewarding than going for a psychorigid strategy but i might be wrong.

It's not super rigid. However, playing Dark Shadow, you should realistically have SoD for every Dance. 

It isn't a rigid rotation, but it's not really worth using DfA without the damage buffs from SoD and Dance. Practicing your Energy and CP management will help a lot with getting them to line up. It's a pretty challenging spec to min/max, getting a feel for how it plays is super important.

2 hours ago, Tsuid said:

Btw can you link me a way to setup Powa for a nicer Finality buff display ? I can't manage to do it myself and didnt find any Powa guides, everyone seems to be using WeakAuras :(

No idea what Powa is, I use Weakauras

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, Guest Adenine said:

Hey, just wanted to say that in relic part of the guide, the soul shadows are twice, in both 1st and 7th place.

Also wanted to ask for opinion on talent choice for Avatar and Maiden boss encounters, mainly in the maiden bossfight, you are not able to backstab from behind whole time, is it worth to roll gloomblade there? Open to any thoughts

Master of Subtlety or Weaponmaster are both stronger overall

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Similar Content

    • By Stan
      Here are all the Mage changes that went live in the second War Within Alpha build.
      Mages received a lot of class changes in Build 54361 and we've recapped them below. There are mostly talent / Hero talent changes.
      Mage
      Frost Mage - Frost Mage core passive Increases damage/healing by 9%: Arcane Echo, Arcane Missiles, Arcane Orb, Arcanosphere, Blast Wave, Blizzard, Comet Storm, Conflagration, Ebonbolt, Flame Patch, Flurry, Frost Bomb, Frost Nova, Frostbolt, Frozen Orb, Glacial Spike, Ice Lance, Living Bomb, Mastery: Icicles, Meteor, Nether Tempest, Ray of Frost, Snowdrift, Supernova Increases periodic damage/healing by 9%: Arcane Echo, Arcane Missiles, Arcane Orb, Arcanosphere, Blast Wave, Blizzard, Comet Storm, Conflagration, Ebonbolt, Flame Patch, Flurry, Frost Bomb, Frost Nova, Frostbolt, Frozen Orb, Glacial Spike, Ice Lance, Living Bomb, Mastery: Icicles, Meteor, Nether Tempest, Ray of Frost, Snowdrift, Supernova Scorch - Scorches an enemy for [ 24.4% of Spell Power ] Fire damage. Scorch is a guaranteed critical strike and increases your movement speed by 30% for 3 sec when cast on a target below 30% health. Castable while moving. Living Bomb - The target becomes a Living Bomb, taking [ 58.79% of Spell Power ] Fire damage over 4 sec, and then exploding to deal an additional 0 Fire damage over 2 sec, and reduced damage to all other enemies within 10 yds. Other enemies hit by this explosion also become a Living Bomb, but this effect cannot spread further. Frozen Orb - Launches an orb of swirling ice up to 40 yds forward which deals up to [ 226.6% 240% of Spell Power ] Frost damage to all enemies it passes through over 15 sec. Deals reduced damage beyond 8 targets. Grants 1 charge of Fingers of Frost when it first damages an enemy. Enemies damaged by the Frozen Orb are slowed by 30% for 3 sec. Critical Mass - Your spells have a 15% 10% increased chance to deal a critical strike. You gain 20% 15% more of the Critical Strike stat from all sources. Comet Storm - Calls down a series of 7 icy comets on and around the target, that deals up to [ 321.5% 350% of Spell Power ] Frost damage to all enemies within 6 yds of its impacts. Flame On - Reduces the cooldown of Fire Blast by 2 sec and increases the maximum number of charges by 1. Increases the maximum number of Fire Blast charges by 2. Feel the Burn - Fire Blast and Phoenix Flames increase your mastery by [ 300% 200% of mas ]% for 5 6 sec. This effect stacks up to 3 times. Improved Scorch - Casting Scorch on targets below 30% health increase the target's damage taken from you by 4% for 12 sec, stacking up to 3 times. Additionally, Scorch critical strikes increase your movement speed by 30% for 3 sec. Casting Scorch on targets below 4% health increase the target's damage taken from you by 4% for 12 sec. This effect stacks up to 2 times. Controlled Destruction - Pyroblast's damage is increased by 5% when the target is above 70% health or below 30% health. Damaging a target with Pyroblast increases the damage it receives from Ignite by 2%. Sun King's Blessing - After consuming 8 10 Hot Streaks, your next non-instant Pyroblast or Flamestrike cast within 30 sec grants you Combustion for 6 sec and deals 260% additional damage. Fervent Flickering - Ignite's damage has a 5% chance to reduce the cooldown of Fire Blast by 1 sec. Fire Blast's cooldown is reduced by 2 sec. Unleashed Inferno - While Combustion is active your Fireball, Pyroblast, Fire Blast, Scorch, and Phoenix Flames deal 50% increased damage and reduce the cooldown of Combustion by 1.25 sec. While Combustion is active, Flamestrike deals 25% increased damage and reduces the cooldown of Combustion by 0.25 sec for each critical strike, up to 1.25 sec. Convection - Each time Living Bomb explodes it has a 30% chance to reduce its cooldown by 2.0 sec. When a Living Bomb expires, if it did not spread to another target, it reapplies itself at 100% effectiveness. A Living Bomb can only benefit from this effect once. Splintering Sorcery - When you consume Nether Precision Tempest, conjure an Arcane Splinter that fires at your target. Arcane Splinter : Conjure raw Arcane magic into a sharp projectile that deals [ 70% of Spell Power ] Arcane damage. Arcane Splinter s embed themselves into their target, dealing [ 41.6% of Spell Power ] Arcane damage over 16 sec. This effect stacks. Look Again - Displacement has a 50% longer duration, 25% longer range, and leaves behind a Mirror Image. Displacement has a 50% longer duration and 25% longer range. Spellfire Spheres - Every 4 times you consume Clearcasting, conjure a Spellfire Sphere. While you're out of combat, you will slowly conjure Spellfire Spheres over time. Spellfire Sphere Increases your spell damage by 4% 2%. Stacks up to 3 times. Mana Addiction - Consuming Clearcasting grants you 3% Haste for 10 sec. Stacks up to 10 times. Multiple instances may overlap. Memory of Al'ar - While your Arcane Phoenix is active, you gain twice as many stacks of Mana Addiction. When your Arcane Phoenix expires, it empowers you, granting Arcane Soul for 3 sec, plus an additional 1 sec for each exceptional spell it had cast. Arcane Soul : Arcane Missiles has a 100% chance to proc Clearcasting. While your Arcane Phoenix is active, you gain twice as many stacks of Mana Addiction. When your Arcane Phoenix expires, it empowers you, granting Arcane Soul for 3 sec, plus an additional 0.5 sec for each exceptional spell it had cast. Arcane Soul : Arcane Barrage costs no mana, grants Clearcasting, and generates 4 Arcane Charges. Mark of the Fire Lord (new) - Flamestrike and Living Bomb apply Mastery: Ignite at 100% increased effectiveness.
    • By Staff
      Blizzard have detailed Mythic+ dungeon tuning that's live already, with Uldaman and Neltharus getting some changes.
      Mythic+ (Source)
      With hotfixes that are now live, we’ve made the following adjustments to Mythic+ dungeons:
      Uldaman: Legacy of Tyr
      Timer increased by 1 minute. Neltharus
      Chargath, Bane of Scales Fiery Focus’s Fire damage reduced by 25%.
    • By Staff
      Savage Ebony Battle Turtle is an upcoming promotion mount coming in Patch 10.2.7.
      The mount will be available in some sort of Promotion in the future.
      "The cannons are powered by an unquenchable rage to seek out enemies and bring them to justice. Nothing can outrun a cannon."

    • By Staff
      The new War Within Allied Races was added to the Alpha today and we already have a full look at not only all their customization options, but their dances as well, courtesy of MrGM! You can check out the Earthen's racial abilities here if you missed them earlier. 
      Let's start with the more dynamic feature, with both male and female dances:
      And then there's big amount of customization options, as well as a size comparison with regular dwarves:

      So, are we liking the new Allied Race overall? More than actual dwarves?
    • By Staff
      Here's a really cool possibility for the War Within, as a very subtle and mildly mysterious comment from Executive Producer and Vice President for WoW, Holly Longdale, may be hinting at our Warband characters getting a lot more involved in our travels! 
      First spotted by UlthansWrath, Longdale came up to Taliesin & Evitel at the recent London War Within Alpha press event and had a short chat about the Warband screen, when she casually said "wouldn't it be cool if those were the characters you took as your followers in your Follower Dungeons?" After the obvious confirmation from Taliesin and Evitel that, yes, yes it would be cool, she just said "hm" and that was the end of the conversation.
      Obviously this isn't any sort of official confirmation, but considering this is a really awesome idea, it seems likely Blizzard are at the very least discussing it, if not already working on it.

      The Warband system is already great, and this would add a lot to it for players that choose to go solo into dungeons, as it would give them even more motivation to get some great characters in their Warband - even if it was just a cosmetic option.
      So, what do you think, will we be seeing this feature when the War Within launches?
×
×
  • Create New...