Subtlety Rogue 7.3

[Damien 1,514]

On 12/4/2016 at 11:14 AM, Guest Lucient said:

Is this guide going to be updated anytime soon? It still shows vers > mastery when mastery is best stat then vers should be second. Also will vigor be chosen over DS in the upcoming patch 7.1.5? Thank you.

We finally found a reviewer, so we're going to include what they said soon.

That said, on that specific issue, Mastery > Versatility only applies if you have an equal amount of stats, and since Versatility is so rare, it inflates its value and ends up being the most desirable stat. We'll add a note though.

[Valks 2,373]

On 11/29/2016 at 3:41 AM, Guest Stats said:

 

Phew that looks awfully complicated.

It does seem like many people feel simming is super difficult, but honestly it can be as easy as just finding your character on the armoury and pressing a few buttons! There should be a few guides around on how to do it.

[Carrn 284]

22 minutes ago, Blainie said:

It does seem like many people feel simming is super difficult, but honestly it can be as easy as just finding your character on the armoury and pressing a few buttons! There should be a few guides around on how to do it.

This is an excellent step by step guide

[Guest Maive]

There are plenty of guides that show you how to do it.  I used a 5 min video by one of Method's raiders to learn (just Google "simcraft method guide").  

All my recent sims show the following stat weights:

Agility - 1

Mastery ~ 0.68 +/- 0.01

Versatility ~ 0.68 +/- 0.01

Crit ~ 0.60

Haste ~ 0.52

The value of Mastery goes up as I lose Mastery, and the value of Vers goes up as I lose Vers.  Also, as the value of Mastery goes up, the value of Vers goes down, and vice versa.  I have about 83% Mastery and 7% Vers, and an equipped ilvl of 864.  With these stats Vers and Mastery are nearly identical (8.20 and 8.15 respectively, not normalized).

By the way, I would post my simcraft results here if only I knew how to upload them to the internet.  Can anyone tell me how to do that?

[Valks 2,373]

3 hours ago, Guest Maive said:

By the way, I would post my simcraft results here if only I knew how to upload them to the internet.  Can anyone tell me how to do that?

What are you hoping to post? I generally just screenshot it if I'm showing weights or a plot.

[Guest Stats]

Isnt Shadowcraft doing the same thing?

[Valks 2,373]

1 hour ago, Guest Stats said:

Isnt Shadowcraft doing the same thing?

Yes, Shadowcraft is basically just a Rogue-specific optimizer.

[Guest Maive]

On 12/5/2016 at 3:47 PM, Blainie said:

What are you hoping to post? I generally just screenshot it if I'm showing weights or a plot.

What's with the updated stat weights here showing HUGELY different weights from what I've been getting from SimC?  I really don't think that much variance can be attributed to differences in gear.  (The stat weights I've been getting are contained in an above comment.)

[Valks 2,373]

17 minutes ago, Guest Maive said:

What's with the updated stat weights here showing HUGELY different weights from what I've been getting from SimC?  I really don't think that much variance can be attributed to differences in gear.  (The stat weights I've been getting are contained in an above comment.)

This will always happen. Stat weights will almost never be the same for different people.

The weights listed on the site are to be used for all item levels as a very general view of the gearing process. It's impossible to give general weights that are the same for every character. 

If we take the example of the Mastery weight for Sub on the site, it is currently at 0.90. For a Sub at 891 item level, the stat weight I obtain is 13.27.

That probably seems incredibly far off, right? When you weight it against Agility, like we have done in the guide, it still comes in at 0.83. Everything depends on your current stat values. Simply continue obtaining gear that provides the stats that your weights require. If you're unsure, use Shadowcraft to double check if it is an upgrade. If it's not and your weights tell you it should be, there might be an error somewhere.

[Guest Maive]

Differences in gear can really result in a 0.23 difference in Mastery, a 0.14 difference in Vers, a 0.15 difference in Crit, and a 0.19 difference in Haste?

Shadowcraft is giving me largely differrent stat weights from SimC; It is giving me approximately the same weights as the updated weights on this site.  I don't know which program to trust.  

[Valks 2,373]

1 hour ago, Guest Maive said:

I don't know which program to trust.  

I'm not an expert on Shadowcraft, so honestly, I don't want to definitely swear by one. I'm going to tag @Carrn @lipsinch to help.

[Furty 51]

3 hours ago, Guest Maive said:

Differences in gear can really result in a 0.23 difference in Mastery, a 0.14 difference in Vers, a 0.15 difference in Crit, and a 0.19 difference in Haste?

Shadowcraft is giving me largely differrent stat weights from SimC; It is giving me approximately the same weights as the updated weights on this site.  I don't know which program to trust.  

A lot of the stat weights will depend on item level as well. For example, this sim is done in Mythic item level, approximating what a Rogue going into Nighthold progress would be equipped with. It's hard to trust any specific program if you don't fully understand the parameters and how they affect the sim and interact with item level. Stats like Versatility have a logarithmic falloff compared to something like Mastery, but if you're rocking 0 Versatility it's going to be your most valuable stat in a Sim (until you get a bit of it). Hard to explain in depth as most of this knowledge is acquired just by continuing to mess with SimC until you understand all the quirks. 

[Guest Maive]

Does anyone know if the sims used to calculate these new weights used a custom apl or just the default?  If they used a custom I would love to see it.  

[Guest Maive]

Whoops, your error is 0.1%, not 10%.  Mine is 0.0047%, not 0.47%.  0.1% error is insignificant, ignore my last comment.  

[Guest Maive]

I think I understand what is going on.  Secondary stats are based on base damage, and base damage goes up with agility, so the value of secondary stats will go up as your item level (and therefore your agility) go up.  Also, I assume the sims used to calculate the updated stat weights were done so using a fully traited artifact weapon, which means it has the 5% increase to total damage trait.  This will also increase the value of secondary stats.  

Since my item level is only 866, and since I do not have a fully traited artifact, the value of my secondary stats will be lower than those stated in this guide.  And since versatility falls off more quickly than mastery, and since I have less versatility than in your sims, versatility will be closer to mastery for me than for a character with higher item level.  

This explains not only the fact that all of your secondary stats are of a higher weight than mine, but also the fact that versatility is closer to mastery for me.  

However, there is still the large discrepancy between the weights I get from SimC and the weights I get from Shadowcraft, which both take into account my gear, talents, and artifact traits.  Since Shadowcraft yields results in a matter of seconds, I suspect it uses a series of formulas to calculate stat weights, rather than drudging through the raw data, which to me means it has a higher chance for error.  For now I'm going to go with SimC over Shadowcraft.  

[Furty 51]

4 hours ago, Guest Maive said:

I think I understand what is going on.  Secondary stats are based on base damage, and base damage goes up with agility, so the value of secondary stats will go up as your item level (and therefore your agility) go up.  Also, I assume the sims used to calculate the updated stat weights were done so using a fully traited artifact weapon, which means it has the 5% increase to total damage trait.  This will also increase the value of secondary stats.  

Since my item level is only 866, and since I do not have a fully traited artifact, the value of my secondary stats will be lower than those stated in this guide.  And since versatility falls off more quickly than mastery, and since I have less versatility than in your sims, versatility will be closer to mastery for me than for a character with higher item level.  

This explains not only the fact that all of your secondary stats are of a higher weight than mine, but also the fact that versatility is closer to mastery for me.  

However, there is still the large discrepancy between the weights I get from SimC and the weights I get from Shadowcraft, which both take into account my gear, talents, and artifact traits.  Since Shadowcraft yields results in a matter of seconds, I suspect it uses a series of formulas to calculate stat weights, rather than drudging through the raw data, which to me means it has a higher chance for error.  For now I'm going to go with SimC over Shadowcraft.  

That's correct, and why our general policy is that stat weights are not absolute and following the priority in a more general fashion is advisable. 

[Guest Vers. vs Mastery]

So at what % is Vers. getting less important than Mastery? at 5% already or more like 20%?

[Carrn 284]

1 hour ago, Guest Vers. vs Mastery said:

So at what % is Vers. getting less important than Mastery? at 5% already or more like 20%?

Stats always change. Your best bet is to Sim yourself every time you get a new item and find out what is best

[Guest Maive]

Can anyone tell me what the enchant ID is in SimC for Mark of the Hidden Satyr?  The ID for this enchant in the URL of Wowhead is incorrect, and I don't want to have to buy the enchant just to get its SimC ID.  

[Guest A little behind....]

Can we get an update on this guide for patch 7.1.5????

[Orthios 271]

2 hours ago, Guest A little behind.... said:

Can we get an update on this guide for patch 7.1.5????

Once 7.1.5 is live, yes, all guides will be updated.  Until then, it will be updated as needed to stay relevant to the current patch.

[Guest Ves]

Do you plan on updating the Sims of the new trinkets from kara? I see it was done for assassination but sub and outlaw don't look like they have been updated. 

[Felinin 0]

Subtlety Rogue DPS Rotation, Cooldowns, and Abilities page:-

In paragraph 2.4 on Vanish, the word "with" should be "without", i.e. "... without expending a charge of Shadow Dance".

Edit: and thanks for a great guide!

Edited December 21, 2016 by Felinin

[Bunbohue 2]

During bloodlust, shadow blades keeps me at a constant overflow of combo points and energy, which I'm having trouble spending.  Do you think it would be wiser to use shadow blade outside of the bloodless window?  

[Carrn 284]

13 hours ago, Bunbohue said:

During bloodlust, shadow blades keeps me at a constant overflow of combo points and energy, which I'm having trouble spending.  Do you think it would be wiser to use shadow blade outside of the bloodless window?  

In short, no. You're probably going to have a lot of excess Energy during Lust, and that's fine. Keep up your regular rotation and be sure to refresh Shadows of Death when possible to take advantage of the extra Energy