Frost Death Knight 7.3

[Valks 2,373]

On 10/29/2016 at 11:06 PM, Talindel said:

The good things would be to give us the weights used for the simcraft... Not sure this config will work for all playing style.

I'm not sure what you feel giving weights would do? Weights are used to calculate upgrades on gear at a specific item level or as an average over all item levels. The weights would simply show you the same priority listed?

[Talindel 0]

Hi,

My own think is that with the Weights i can test if the item config (got some to try in vault) match my play style on dummy and raid/MM+.^^

That's just for my own experience.

Ty in advance ^^

Edited October 31, 2016 by Talindel

[Valks 2,373]

2 hours ago, Talindel said:

My own think is that with the Weights i can test if the item config (got some to try in vault) match my play style on dummy and raid/MM+.^^

The weights won't fit your character for testing though. If you want to do personal testing and altering of weights, you need to sim your own character. You can't do any reliable testing at all if you're using general weights. If you want to accurately test whether you need different stat priorities for your playstyle, you'll need to sim your character using an APL that follows whatever rotation you feel is better than the current one.

[Guest Usernr333]

So i got Koltiras Newfound Will and now i with the RA-build i have a hard time to spend all my runes for Frozen Impulse. 

What if i switch to Freezing fog instead of Frozen Impulse, i have like 700k+ crits with howling blast (without relics) and it proccs quite often because i can spam Ob so much. And later with T19 2 set this could be interesting.

[Guest Usernr333]

I tried Freezing Fog on HC Niightmare today and Howling blast did most of my dmg. I was top on almost every encounter which i never was before, 400k+ dps at every boss. Cant compare to others because no logs but i improved quite a bit from last week, Got ilvl 872 with Koltiras Newfound Will.

[Guest Intangible]

On 10/31/2016 at 8:52 AM, Blainie said:

For all comments concerning the stat priority, these are actively maintained by one of the prominent theorycrafters from the DK discord. I can't tell you why they have found Vers to be the main stat, but it's what is currently being found as best, at least from what I can see in our notes. If it is that you feel this is wrong, you are welcome to show your own maths and simulations that show why you feel Versatility is not the strongest. 

I'm not trying to be rude, but simply saying "It can't be right" means nothing. Show us why it can't be right.

No offense, but the posters were right. 100% versatility was wrong, as you can see from the recently updated stat priority.

[Esploratore 1]

I have to say that the buffs were more useful than I thought: 20% to obli, 50% to hb and 5% to frost damage, based on this and my 230k on ursoc lfr with 857 and no consumables, I had calculated that with all but potions and the 7.1 buffs it would get to 260k on the same boss, this based on the damage % my abilities did. What I didn't calculate is that those buffs would've brought to a change of the talent build and priority, which, on a dummy test, accounts for an additional 11-20% more dps than frostscythe based on the rng with machine gun, as in was at 270k on single target dummy for a lot of time, then had a really bad streak of runic empowerment procs, so could do very little and went down to 250k, assumably in normal circumstances it would remain at around 260k, while obliterate build was around 295-300k all time, from 260 to 300 there's just over 15% increase and from 230 to 300 (what the 7.1 buffs did, basically) there's just under 30% increase.

Also I find the situation better even gameplay wise: machine gun would mean being both rp and rune starved occasionally, while in 5 mins with obliterate build I didn't really lose icy talons except once (which might have also been a mistake) and overall very good runic power amount, and this is with still 2 ranks missing on the trait that gives a chance to get more runic power from obliterate.

Also keep in mind I still have like 31% crit, 20% haste, 32% mastery, 3% versatility, so considering the value of versatility now it could be even a bigger improvement compared to before patch.

Edited November 3, 2016 by Esploratore

[Guest Taboo]

I guess Im a total noob or going against the grain but from what I have seen of some of the highest parsing Frost DKS they are hanging over 35% haste and one even had 41%. While their crit was around 22-3%. Which I myself am at 21% crit and 34 to 35% haste right now and I am pulling around 315k to 320k sustained DPS easily on fights like Ursoc and Xav. I am talented in Icecap and Runic Attenuation. FS is my #1 DPS ability followed by Ob and then Howling Blast. I just got the Legendary helm but it probably will not effect my single target rotation cause testing on dummies shows a minor dps loss trying to work Winds into single target for HB damage boost.

[Ozjh 1]

Hi there, i'm still watching and testing all Frost DKs changes and talent since the begining of legion, i was wondering if the +300 mastery neck enchant is competitive at a certain point of stuff, consedering that the proc is a fixed amout of damages, where the +300 still scale all the way long.

I'm also in search of some rankings for trinkets, it's quite... messy for choosing them

 

Edited November 10, 2016 by Ozjh

[Guest Forlin]

Why is versatility much higher than mastery? most my ability's benefit from Mastery with only auto attacks and obliterate not doing so. :

- +1% of versatility (increasing all damage) takes 398 Versatility

where

- +1% of Mastery (increasing frost damage) takes only 126 Mastery meaning it seems to scale better.

Just looking at getting more info of why versatility is better than mastery when it seems to scale worse.

[Guest Frost dk Relic]

Pls help with frost dk relic i have a 860 relic with abidexterity and a 875 one with over powered which on should i use? the 875 one give me 5 ilvl on the weapon

[Valks 2,373]

On 11/1/2016 at 9:02 PM, Guest Usernr333 said:

I tried Freezing Fog on HC Niightmare today and Howling blast did most of my dmg. I was top on almost every encounter which i never was before, 400k+ dps at every boss. Cant compare to others because no logs but i improved quite a bit from last week, Got ilvl 872 with Koltiras Newfound Will.

Is there any chance that you can run logs the next time you raid with this setup? I'd love to see how it looks in comparison and I'm sure others would too.

[Valks 2,373]

On 11/2/2016 at 7:12 PM, Guest Intangible said:

No offense, but the posters were right. 100% versatility was wrong, as you can see from the recently updated stat priority.

They were right for the wrong reasons, though. The reason Versatility was listed as the top stat was because the work done by theorycrafters at that time (including our reviewer) pointed towards Vers being top. They simply said it can't be because they didn't like it, not because there was some mathematical reason behind it.

The same theorycrafters that found Versatility to be top then re-tested and found what is now the new priority. What I'm trying to say is, yes, they were right, but not because they proved it to be wrong. They were right because the same theorycrafters continued their work and found something new, thereby proving themselves wrong.

The possibility of this happening was why I specifically said what I said. At that time, it was found to be best. Someone did prove it wrong with maths, as I asked, it just wasn't someone in the comments. It was the same theorycrafters, with maths and simulations.

Anyway, at least there is now a new priority that people are happy with. That's the most important thing, at least to me.

[Valks 2,373]

On 11/9/2016 at 6:57 PM, Ozjh said:

Hi there, i'm still watching and testing all Frost DKs changes and talent since the begining of legion, i was wondering if the +300 mastery neck enchant is competitive at a certain point of stuff, consedering that the proc is a fixed amout of damages, where the +300 still scale all the way long.

I'm also in search of some rankings for trinkets, it's quite... messy for choosing them

I'm not sure if we have hit a point where the Mastery is better, yet. It's entirely possible when we enter the Nighthold, but it looks like for now, especially with how low it is on the priority, the ones listed are better.

[Valks 2,373]

On 11/9/2016 at 10:26 PM, Guest Forlin said:

Just looking at getting more info of why versatility is better than mastery when it seems to scale worse.

Will put in a note and see if I can get an explanation for you!

[Valks 2,373]

7 hours ago, Guest Frost dk Relic said:

Pls help with frost dk relic i have a 860 relic with abidexterity and a 875 one with over powered which on should i use? the 875 one give me 5 ilvl on the weapon

Take the higher item level.

[Esploratore 1]

12 hours ago, Blainie said:

Will put in a note and see if I can get an explanation for you!

Would be indeed interesting if you could explain that, I even tried simcraft with my gear and with versatility neck it says haste > versa > crit > mastery, while with mastery neck versa > haste > crit > mastery, but I don't get it.

If I add 800 mastery to my gear, compared to 800 versatility, my abilities all hit harder, except obliterate and melee, talking about 3k added damage to frost strike compared to not using any neck when using an 800 versatility one, with an 800 mastery one again 3k over the versatility, obliterate and melee hits alone can't make the difference even using obliterate build since it's still low damage compared to all other abilities put together.

Look at this for example: if I remove both my 870 mastery + 150 versatility ring and my 850 versatility neck, this is the damage abilities do: 

Obliterate 185.957, frost strike 147.187, howling blast 32.327, frost fever 143.680, remorseless winter 121.671, sindragosa 653.080.

Now I put on my mastery ring, obli is slightly increased cause of versa enchant:

Obliterate 186.631, frost strike 152.119, howling blast 33.411, frost fever 148.488, remorseless winter 125.748, sindragosa 674.973.

Now I remove that ring and put on my versatility neck:

Obliterate 189.763, frost strike 150.199, howling blast 32.989, frost fever 146.616, remorseless winter 124.155, sindragosa 666.444.

How do you explain that considering pretty much the versatility added is the same as mastery in my example?

Edited November 12, 2016 by Esploratore

[Esploratore 1]

I did some tests on dummy and the versatility seems to come on top in all tries by 7k dps or so, but I don't understand logically how it is possible since the damage increase on tooltip of all abilities together is higher than the increase to obliterate with mastery vs versa.

Anyone has a logic explanation for what happens here, or for more detailed numbers, my post above?

Edited November 14, 2016 by Esploratore

[Guest Thaldas - SHand(EU)]

Versatility doesn't only increase the damage of your obliterate and auto attacks, it also increases the damage done by trinkets (ursoc´s rending paw), neck enchant, and crystalline swords. All of which your mastery doesn't buff at all.

Seeing how much of your total dmg is made up from obliterate, AA and crystalline swords, i'm not surprised at all that versatility is a better stat than mastery at the moment. You have to remember that versatility also buffs the spells your mastery would, although it buffs them less, it still does.

[Valks 2,373]

On 11/14/2016 at 4:21 AM, Esploratore said:

Anyone has a logic explanation for what happens here, or for more detailed numbers, my post above?

It looks like someone might have beaten me to it! Check out the response above.

[Esploratore 1]

Not entirely convinced, as I already knew versatility buffed those abilities too, but I simply said that the additional amount the abilities deal with mastery compared to versatility seems higher than the damage you would get with obli and the others not affected by mastery, even considering how much damage obli makes up; but well, the tests I did, even without having the trinket and enchant you said (which would favour versatility further) still ended up saying versatility is better, so this will have to do.

On another note, how much damage increase should the "bad to the bone" trait do? I found conflicting info about this, basically the effects are 2:

1) Razorice itself deals a very low amount of frost damage, which in my gear ends up being 2% of total damage in a 5 min st fight.

2) Razorice also gives 15% additional frost damage, which means a decent % of our total damage.

Now, does that trait only increase that 2% total damage by 15% per rank, meaning a pathetically low 0,3% overall dps increase per rank or 0,9% total across the 3 ranks, or does it have additional effects?

If that 0,3% is all it does I'm seriously thinking to get the frost strike range increase before it.

Edited November 19, 2016 by Esploratore

[Gormnir 0]

i got a question regarding talons vs shattering strike. an guildie of mine woh is a frost DK main, says that ill have higher DPS output with shattering instead of icy talons... i can however not see it as icy talons = faster aa = more crystalize procs + more aa crits = more scythe/obliterate procs and not to that my AA obviously will be hitting much more often which is overall more dps.. while i can see 40% increase to frost strike at the cost of your 5 razor stacks is nice... but the fact is sacrifice them and lose that damage % increase for awhile i just cant see how it will outdps icy talons.. so i thought id ask here if anyone else thinks this or if its merely my guildie? also vert is still better than mastery for frost DK right?

[Valks 2,373]

On 19.11.2016 at 11:34 PM, Esploratore said:

Not entirely convinced, as I already knew versatility buffed those abilities too, but I simply said that the additional amount the abilities deal with mastery compared to versatility seems higher than the damage you would get with obli and the others not affected by mastery, even considering how much damage obli makes up; but well, the tests I did, even without having the trinket and enchant you said (which would favour versatility further) still ended up saying versatility is better, so this will have to do.

I think the other thing to take into account is that Mastery is a dead stat for the special things that Vers buffs. Vers still buffs the damage of everything that Mastery does, just not as much. Hopefully that kinda makes sense. It's a null + big vs. medium + medium. In that equation, Versatility basically wins.

Praying that this is a sort of understandable way of looking at it.

[toaxe 0]

The "Gems, Enchants, and Consumables" page still shows versatility as being the stat to go for... Is this right, or should it be crit/haste/mastery?

Edited November 24, 2016 by toaxe

[Valks 2,373]

5 hours ago, toaxe said:

The "Gems, Enchants, and Consumables" page still shows versatility as being the stat to go for... Is this right, or should it be crit/haste/mastery?

If you haven't hit the breakpoints, you would go for whichever stat comes first in the priority for you. If you have hit the breakpoints, you would take Vers. 

Vers > Mastery