Frost Death Knight 7.3

[Tegu 1]

4 hours ago, magicbison said:

Just wanted some clarification on the Frost Multi-Target Rotation.         

 

Am I right in thinking any time there are 2+ targets I should just forget Obliterate and just focus on spamming Frostscythe?

Yeah that's the case.

[Bloodweiser 1]

So, I've been running simulation after simulation with every possible rotation and this is the one that I found to be the highest dps:

http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/theory/rotation/298715a3ec5e4cabb8928eb939c127d6?spec=DeathKnightFrost&version=live&share=true

This is with the following talents:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/tool/talent-calculator#dZa!1121112

No frostscythe. Now it's just a sim so I'll not know until tomorrow nights raid if it's actually right or not. I've already a raid with the spec and rotation in the guide so I'll see how it compares.

Edited October 6, 2016 by Bloodweiser

[Valks 2,373]

37 minutes ago, Bloodweiser said:

No frostscythe. Now it's just a sim so I'll not know until tomorrow nights raid if it's actually right or not. I've already a raid with the spec and rotation in the guide so I'll see how it compares.

Personally, I think it's a pretty bold move! Really not sure how this will play out for you, but please do let us know.

[Tegu 1]

40 minutes ago, Bloodweiser said:

So, I've been running simulation after simulation with every possible rotation and this is the one that I found to be the highest dps:

http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/theory/rotation/298715a3ec5e4cabb8928eb939c127d6?spec=DeathKnightFrost&version=live&share=true

This is with the following talents:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/tool/talent-calculator#dZa!1121112

No frostscythe. Now it's just a sim so I'll not know until tomorrow nights raid if it's actually right or not. I've already a raid with the spec and rotation in the guide so I'll see how it compares.

I'm not sure about the Avalanche, Icecap should be doing better also i think for single target RA might be doing actually good but then we come back to the topic Frostscythe vs Obliterate. I have seen all kinds of logs so far ( haven't played it myself  ) and seems like there's people using Obliterate or not using it, like i said Frostscythe should be doing better with high % mastery other than that Obliterate outside of KM otherwise makes no sense to put Obliterate into the Frost spec at first place but you never know with blizzard.

[Bloodweiser 1]

I was surprised with the results and I do generally trust mr robot.

Here are a few sims I ran just now against a generic pre raid frost dk:

1. With Avalanche:

http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simulator/report/69323ca5ff8842ba8bd0b279dd0f7f94

2. With Icecap:

http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simulator/report/5c290491585b47e9b1ac18ddedb7b7af

Even with PoF going from 33 to 42% uptime Avalanche seems to come out ahaead. But again, it's all just simulation and not real world.

[Sky 0]

Hi, with 20% of crit can we still use Fsc over Obliterate ? With 30% Crit 1/3 chance to crit but now it's just 1/5 chance.

Sorry for my english

[Tegu 1]

1 hour ago, Bloodweiser said:

I was surprised with the results and I do generally trust mr robot.

Here are a few sims I ran just now against a generic pre raid frost dk:

1. With Avalanche:

http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simulator/report/69323ca5ff8842ba8bd0b279dd0f7f94

2. With Icecap:

http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simulator/report/5c290491585b47e9b1ac18ddedb7b7af

Even with PoF going from 33 to 42% uptime Avalanche seems to come out ahaead. But again, it's all just simulation and not real world.

I usually don't trust MRrobot or any other sims unless i know the people that have done the work but anyway you can test it yourself with both talents, check it out and feel free to share the results with us.

26 minutes ago, Sky said:

Hi, with 20% of crit can we still use Fsc over Obliterate ? With 30% Crit 1/3 chance to crit but now it's just 1/5 chance.

Sorry for my english

Think you need more crit and mastery to completely ignore Obliterate.

[athe 0]

 

a small question why have written down the cap to 20%? Does this affect the bis dk frost on the raid?
 Because with the opti crit 30% ,20%  hast I come with a full hm stuff without taking into account 
the proc from 27% critical 22% haste and 30% mastery so I wonder if it 
is to take opti of stuffs with more mastery haste or not at all?

[Ozjh 1]

On 06/10/2016 at 1:06 PM, Bloodweiser said:

So, I've been running simulation after simulation with every possible rotation and this is the one that I found to be the highest dps:

http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/theory/rotation/298715a3ec5e4cabb8928eb939c127d6?spec=DeathKnightFrost&version=live&share=true

This is with the following talents:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/tool/talent-calculator#dZa!1121112

No frostscythe. Now it's just a sim so I'll not know until tomorrow nights raid if it's actually right or not. I've already a raid with the spec and rotation in the guide so I'll see how it compares.

Same conclusion here, after 5 hours of tests on training dummys, actually performing well in MM, both in multi and mono situation (geared 848, 30% crit, 16% hast, 29% mastery), trying to have constantly icy talons seems to be a good way of performing, and switch target fight are the badest i can be confronted to, if the switch is not already close to me, because fade of icy talons and stacks of frozenrune :)

 

More test are needed to see if Howling Blast should be used on procs, or only for refreshing dot when fighting single targets!

Seems that frost damage relic is the better one, after analyse my recount, i got around 60-65% of frost damage, witch mean the relic push 6% of my global dps (got it not from robot but from logical stat :p)

 

Just a shame that Glacial advance is not well scripted ATM and very sensitive to the floor texture!

To get an idea, i turn around 210-220K dps on classical boss (understanding not huge phases of avoiding close combat tech), should be better with more progress of my weapon (relic and talents)

 

My two cents:D

Edited October 7, 2016 by Ozjh

[Bloodweiser 1]

18 hours ago, Tegu said:

I usually don't trust MRrobot or any other sims unless i know the people that have done the work but anyway you can test it yourself with both talents, check it out and feel free to share the results with us.

I'll have logs tonight to share, so assuming I don't do horrendously bad I'll post them here.

I should point out this is only for purely single target fights as well, with any sort of adds frost scythe will pull ahead easily.

Edited October 7, 2016 by Bloodweiser

[Guest Nakuii]

Are u 100 % sure that haste is over crit now? It sucks so fucking hard to switch the main stat now from 30 % crt down to 20 %...

I dont wanna change this now and in a week or two again, it would be so annoying..

I know its a stupid question :P

 

 

[Valks 2,373]

20 minutes ago, Guest Nakuii said:

Are u 100 % sure that haste is over crit now? It sucks so fucking hard to switch the main stat now from 30 % crt down to 20 %...

Basically, no. While I'd love to say yes, things can always change. This playstyle is still being tested, still being perfected. it will take work to get 100% right, but we're definitely trying our best!

This is just kind of the way it is in a new expansion unfortunately.

[Valks 2,373]

45 minutes ago, Bloodweiser said:

I'll have logs tonight to share, so assuming I don't do horrendously bad I'll post them here.

I should point out this is only for purely single target fights as well, with any sort of adds frost scythe will pull ahead easily.

Looking forward to it!

[athe 0]

I saw that on ongler bis was nothing if you wish it I can send it to you it might be helping players.

[Tegu 1]

20 hours ago, athe said:

 

a small question why have written down the cap to 20%? Does this affect the bis dk frost on the raid?
 Because with the opti crit 30% ,20%  hast I come with a full hm stuff without taking into account 
the proc from 27% critical 22% haste and 30% mastery so I wonder if it 
is to take opti of stuffs with more mastery haste or not at all?

That is wrong gonna be fixed dunno why it says 20 % crit. You want as much crit as you can get same goes for the other stats just haste drops a bit at some point.

 

2 hours ago, Bloodweiser said:

I'll have logs tonight to share, so assuming I don't do horrendously bad I'll post them here.

I should point out this is only for purely single target fights as well, with any sort of adds frost scythe will pull ahead easily.

Yeah obviously Frostscythe is a clear winner for 2 + targets the question is how much % mastery you need to completely ignore Obliterate from the single target rotation.

2 hours ago, Guest Nakuii said:

Are u 100 % sure that haste is over crit now? It sucks so fucking hard to switch the main stat now from 30 % crt down to 20 %...

I dont wanna change this now and in a week or two again, it would be so annoying..

I know its a stupid question :P

 

 

No, the stats aren't correct atm it should be crit > haste > mastery = versatility.

22 minutes ago, athe said:

I saw that on ongler bis was nothing if you wish it I can send it to you it might be helping players.

I'm gonna add one for both dungeons & raids soon tm.

[athe 0]

ok but if it can be interesting to you I will seal the g doc that I am

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TG9W6OwVGjLJ3xmir26LKctkr_DsBexWbIz7_EtKc6w/edit

[demonardvark 556]

23 hours ago, Tegu said:

I'm not sure about the Avalanche, Icecap should be doing better also i think for single target RA might be doing actually good but then we come back to the topic Frostscythe vs Obliterate. I have seen all kinds of logs so far ( haven't played it myself  ) and seems like there's people using Obliterate or not using it, like i said Frostscythe should be doing better with high % mastery other than that Obliterate outside of KM otherwise makes no sense to put Obliterate into the Frost spec at first place but you never know with blizzard.

For pure single target RA is actually doing much better than frost scythe. It takes mythic raid if not higher levels of mastery to overtake obliterate completely. However, with RA in machine gun you get that many more frost strikes and easier uptime with talons. Looking at top logs there is a mash up of scythe or not, but overall for pure single, RA is being favored atm. Come nighthold, i imagine will see scythe overtake, obliterate as designed scales like crap, so later in xpac scythe will likely be all around go to, for now for pure single RA is doing better in most cases. 

As far as ice cap vs avalanche, they are exceedingly close in single target at normal heroic gear levels. Almost negligible differences. Why we see ice cap gaining popularity is because of   Toravon's Whiteout Bindings . With that legendary ice cap is the better single target talent by miles. So, without legendary it doesn't matter too much ice cap vs avalanche, depending on haste you can see fluctuations with which one is stronger, however, with said legendary, ice cap becomes insanely powerful . 

[Guest Esploratore]

Demonardvark, do you also agree that the current haste > crit (up to 20% crit) suggested is wrong like Tegu said?

 

I had gone crit 30% > haste 20% so far and reached 30% and 18% with 843 item level, but tonight I saw that huge priority change, so I restored all items 830 + I had vendored in the hope to find something to gain haste and drop crit, but based on what I read I don't have to change yet?
 

[demonardvark 556]

10 minutes ago, Guest Esploratore said:

Demonardvark, do you also agree that the current haste > crit (up to 20% crit) suggested is wrong like Tegu said?

 

I had gone crit 30% > haste 20% so far and reached 30% and 18% with 843 item level, but tonight I saw that huge priority change, so I restored all items 830 + I had vendored in the hope to find something to gain haste and drop crit, but based on what I read I don't have to change yet?
 

This is just a place holder answer for now, I'm at work and can't invest too much time atm. I would actually off the top of my head think that for running RA machine you would actually want more haste than anything. Yes rune regen is fine but haste has a direct impact on killing machine procs. For RA its important but for FS its even more critical. So i would think RA would be strength>haste>crit with gemming for haste and FS would be Strength>haste>mastery still gemming for haste. I don't have my stat weights and stuff, so that's off the top of my head. I'll do a more detailed check later. Short answer is I think a haste cap for frost is not good period, FS needs a lot of mastery but frequent km procs to work and RA needs it as well so every obliterate is super strong. Again, need to double check some things though, technical question is technical :D

[Tegu 1]

I'm gonna be stepping down from the Frost guide since i don't have time for it or played it in Legion to be able to keep you guys up to date with the new information so it's better someone that actually mains it to update the guide and be able to help you right away. As some of you might have noticed i haven't had the time to update the guide or reply to your posts as fast as i was doing it before but there's just too much happening right now in-game and in real life that prevents me to focus on the Frost guide. if you have any questions feel free to tweet to me or ask me in-game always ready to help you guys with whatever.

[demonardvark 556]

i am home but my keyboard is busted, i cant type certain letters, I possess a full response but i cant type it out easily. so i need to buy a new keyboard. for now for scythe users only its 

Strength> haste to 20% soft cap > crit to 30% > mastery  wit stackin mastery.  = optimal

Strength> haste to 18% soft cap > crit to 25% > mastery  wit stackin mastery.  = plausable/more realistic for lower ilvls

FS needs crit and haste to function properly.  number wise it doesnt work yet records indicate a stiff competition between fs and obliterate, y? crit, crit is y fs can be competitive. from my understanin max benefit of crit is 30%. So at 20% haste you will see around 10 km procs per minute. alone this doesnt beat obliterate, the critical attacks are doin it. as expac continues obliterate doesnt scale but fs does directly with mastery.

so 20% haste is so we have runes and decent km procs, 30% crit is to offset fs casts that are not km powered, mastery is the scalin damage increase. Dis is the optimal pure fs set up. so 18% haste and 30% crit to make it function, mastery increase to increase its damage. is 25% crit okay possibly, im lookin at maximum possible setup. these stats will overtake obliterate as we obtain more mastery, 

so consider da reforge days, you needed a base 7.5 expertise and hit as a baseline, 18-20% haste and 25-30% crit is de baseline. mastery is da focus after. now yes haste does lead to more km proc at 5% equalin 1 proc per minute. we do cast different abilities durin battle. so da stats as above, appear atm to be optimal for fs usin

dont be confused, just because mastery isnt stat priority 1 doesnt mean its not super important for fs usin, we just need other parts to run it. mastery increasin is wut will increase your dps over time, ie the most critical stat after your baseline needs. 

ps it takes 45% mastery for one non crit km powered fs to beat obliterate, so potentially until

haste to 18% soft cap > crit to 25% soft cap > mastery to 45% soft cap RA will likely play out better for pure single battle, once at 45% mastery dats time for fs switch. so mytic raiders likely are close to da margin now. come nitehold and above 45% mastery, i believe fs will be better for single battle. Plus our one legendary improves all raw frost damage favoring scythe

*updated*

clash on mmo was able to articulate better den i could

But in the meantime, gearing up the MG rotation with Crit>Mastery>Haste is perfectly viable and competitive with the Obliterate rotation on ST while offering a major boost to AoE at the same time. There is no reason to shy away from it without the perfect stats.

The key here is that once you get all 3 stats to a certain level so that IT can be easily maintained and your FSc is reliably critting, then Mastery becomes the icing on the cake causing the MG rotation to eventually scale much, much better than the Obliterate alternative. So even if you use the Obliterate rotation now, you won't be in the near future.

[Guest Esploratore]

1 hour ago, demonardvark said:

i am home but my keyboard is busted, i cant type certain letters, I possess a full response but i cant type it out easily. so i need to buy a new keyboard. for now for scythe users only its

Strength> haste to 20% soft cap > crit to 30% > mastery  wit stackin mastery.  = optimal

Strength> haste to 18% soft cap > crit to 25% > mastery  wit stackin mastery.  = plausable/more realistic for lower ilvls

FS needs crit and haste to function properly.  number wise it doesnt work yet records indicate a stiff competition between fs and obliterate, y? crit, crit is y fs can be competitive. from my understanin max benefit of crit is 30%. So at 20% haste you will see around 10 km procs per minute. alone this doesnt beat obliterate, the critical attacks are doin it. as expac continues obliterate doesnt scale but fs does directly with mastery.

so 20% haste is so we have runes and decent km procs, 30% crit is to offset fs casts that are not km powered, mastery is the scalin damage increase. Dis is the optimal pure fs set up. so 18% haste and 30% crit to make it function, mastery increase to increase its damage. is 25% crit okay possibly, im lookin at maximum possible setup. these stats will overtake obliterate as we obtain more mastery,

so consider da reforge days, you needed a base 7.5 expertise and hit as a baseline, 18-20% haste and 25-30% crit is de baseline. mastery is da focus after. now yes haste does lead to more km proc at 5% equalin 1 proc per minute. we do cast different abilities durin battle. so da stats as above, appear atm to be optimal for fs usin

dont be confused, just because mastery isnt stat priority 1 doesnt mean its not super important for fs usin, we just need other parts to run it. mastery increasin is wut will increase your dps over time, ie the most critical stat after your baseline needs.

ps it takes 45% mastery for one non crit km powered fs to beat obliterate, so potentially until

haste to 18% soft cap > crit to 25% soft cap > mastery to 45% soft cap RA will likely play out better for pure single battle, once at 45% mastery dats time for fs switch. so mytic raiders likely are close to da margin now. come nitehold and above 45% mastery, i believe fs will be better for single battle. Plus our one legendary improves all raw frost damage favoring scythe

Ahh, ok, thanks for the answer; just a thing: seeing as I have 18% haste atm and 30% crit, should I aim to get the last 2% haste to get to 20 like suggested by your optimal stat prio and then focus on mastery which is 30% atm?

[demonardvark 556]

1 hour ago, Guest Esploratore said:

Ahh, ok, thanks for the answer; just a thing: seeing as I have 18% haste atm and 30% crit, should I aim to get the last 2% haste to get to 20 like suggested by your optimal stat prio and then focus on mastery which is 30% atm?

if you are in a hurry to play w fs id say just focus on mastery, if pleased usin ra cap off your haste. 

again my results are a preliminary work, but people are in want of answer, if my ratio isnt correct (fair possibility im not 100% on) it suld be very close. da threshold mastery amount to replace RA wit SF may be higher den 45% but 45% is da min possible jump point. of course for aoe sf is superior really already :D

also i believe for RA (repeat, prelim results) we may find da situation to be like bos for unholy in wod, belo 30% MS use necroblite above use bos. it looks like da 18-20% haste , 25-30% crit settin is desired for RA as well as SF, its da mastery amount dat alters wich one is superior.

also wit all dis work i welcome anyone to contribute if you see things you believe are off. its difficult math to account for all variables, current ratio is lookin rite for sims and comparin to logs but by all means, i welcome community to correct me. if my answers arent 100% den as a community of players, im sure we can find rite answer :D

clash on mmo was able to articulate better den i could

The key here is that once you get all 3 stats to a certain level so that IT can be easily maintained and your FSc is reliably critting, then Mastery becomes the icing on the cake causing the MG rotation to eventually scale much, much better than the Obliterate alternative. So even if you use the Obliterate rotation now, you won't be in the near future.

[Bloodweiser 1]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/server/289/latest/#difficulty=3&class=DeathKnight&spec=Frost&boss=1841

Well, I did okay on Ursoc and got top frost DK on my realm in normal but I'm still not amazing XD

Edited October 7, 2016 by Bloodweiser

[magicbison 0]

11 hours ago, demonardvark said:

Strength> haste to 18% soft cap > crit to 25% > mastery  wit stackin mastery.  = plausable/more realistic for lower ilvls

 

When it comes to this stat setup what would you be doing for Trinkets?

Would you get a trinket with a Mastery/Haste proc and a Damage Proc like Spiked Counterweight @ ilvl 840+ or a Mastery and Haste Trinket?

Edited October 8, 2016 by magicbison