Frost Death Knight 7.3

[Valks 2,373]

45 minutes ago, NeoCG said:

what class does have that? 

Unfortunately, something always has to be best, so having two competitive specs is so unbelievably rare. As you said, at least UH is there for those that don't like BoS. Having one DPS spec and hating the talents you need to use is even worse!

[demonardvark 556]

24 minutes ago, Blainie said:

Unfortunately, something always has to be best, so having two competitive specs is so unbelievably rare.

cough warrior cough, 

cough mage cough,

also rip shadow priests T_T

[Guest Surkk]

Was wondering if you could explain why the 7.2 artifact progression guide ranks the  trait "Bad to the Bone" higher than "Dead of Winter." Looking at my logs even for single target fights it seems razorice is only 1.5% of my overall damage whereas remorseless winter is about 10% on average.

[NeoCG 2]

On 28.4.2017 at 8:57 PM, Guest Surkk said:

Was wondering if you could explain why the 7.2 artifact progression guide ranks the  trait "Bad to the Bone" higher than "Dead of Winter." Looking at my logs even for single target fights it seems razorice is only 1.5% of my overall damage whereas remorseless winter is about 10% on average.

The relic choices and artifact progression in the Guide seem to be pretty wrong. Considering the relic charts that were posted in this thread BIS Relics etc. Bad to the Bone is by far the worst trait, it sims so bad it would be a DPS-loss to switch a 865 HB relic for a 925 Racorize. For Singletarget the progression order should be:

Blast Radius>Coldasice=>Ambidexterity>Nothingbuttheboots>>deadofwinter>overpowered>>>Badtothebone>>Defensive

which then also is your priority for relics (though you should really try to get 3 Blast Radius relics if they aren't too low ilvl-wise). This is just considering the posted sims but it also makes a lot of sense when you look at your logs. For more than one target Dead of Winter becomes even better of course. 

 

Also looking at the legendaries Legendary-Sims the order is a little bit off espacially since it is now a BOS-Guide only? 

KJBW seems so be really bad probably since you need COF and the other Trinket-choices are great as well?

SON should be No. 1 and the utility-ones are not even that bad espacially the boots after the buff though the Cloak which is said to be good sucks DPS-wise and is not really that great on any fight as far as I know.

Maybe you should change that.

 

Edited April 30, 2017 by NeoCG

[Valks 2,373]

On 4/28/2017 at 2:16 PM, demonardvark said:

cough warrior cough, 

cough mage cough,

also rip shadow priests T_T

Ah, I meant more like two competitive talent builds in one spec :p

[Valks 2,373]

On 4/28/2017 at 7:57 PM, Guest Surkk said:

Was wondering if you could explain why the 7.2 artifact progression guide ranks the  trait "Bad to the Bone" higher than "Dead of Winter." Looking at my logs even for single target fights it seems razorice is only 1.5% of my overall damage whereas remorseless winter is about 10% on average.

Will get this updated.

[Valks 2,373]

On 4/30/2017 at 5:21 PM, NeoCG said:

Maybe you should change that.

Passing all of this on to the writer/reviewer, thanks!

[Guest Cirdem]

Personally I don't agree Machine gun Rotation being removed.  Ever since i switched to MG  spec im hitting 80-90% percentiles easilly considering this is my Alt and playstyle.

Im doing way more DPS with MG spec than BoS

[Valks 2,373]

56 minutes ago, Guest Cirdem said:

Personally I don't agree Machine gun Rotation being removed.  Ever since i switched to MG  spec im hitting 80-90% percentiles easilly considering this is my Alt and playstyle.

Im doing way more DPS with MG spec than BoS

This is most likely due to mismanagement of BoS though, rather than MG being better than BoS. Currently, there isn't a single top 10 parse of a Frost DK that isn't BoS build. 

Did you try and ask for any help with BoS with logs? Or do you prefer not to play BoS due to the playstyle?

[demonardvark 556]

10 hours ago, Blainie said:

This is most likely due to mismanagement of BoS though, rather than MG being better than BoS. Currently, there isn't a single top 10 parse of a Frost DK that isn't BoS build. 

Did you try and ask for any help with BoS with logs? Or do you prefer not to play BoS due to the playstyle?

It goes further than that, most fights on mythic you won't find MG in the top 50-100. Here or there there is one outlier but BOS is dominant by large margins and even going into Tomb its exceedingly likely it will remain so. Between CoF and the legendary items Blizz would have to hard nerf BOS in order to not make it so dominant.

Now while I do agree there are multiple rotations viable at various gear levels the hard site guides aim at top of top. Now in the forums I've always tried to aim at all playerbase and make options available but if anyone asked what the highest potential dps playstyle is BOS wins out by far. 

So yes machinegun is "viable" but its not the best and as far as the WoW interweb community as a whole goes they want the top line period and anything else is bantha poodoo. Believe me several theorycrafters have tried to attest against that mindset and it didn't work well XD

[Valks 2,373]

On 5/5/2017 at 1:07 PM, demonardvark said:

Now while I do agree there are multiple rotations viable at various gear levels the hard site guides aim at top of top.

Pretty much. There are specs that have multiple builds listed (MM Hunter, for example) because there are occasions in raids where one build actually does perform better, but is generally considered worse at the moment. There's no point keeping MG if it's just straight up worse.

[Guest Morrivar]

The guide refers to Empowered Rune Weapon as  cooldown in multiple places, and yet my Frost DK does not have this ability anywhere that I can see. Am I crazy, or is the guide incorrect?

[demonardvark 556]

36 minutes ago, Guest Morrivar said:

The guide refers to Empowered Rune Weapon as  cooldown in multiple places, and yet my Frost DK does not have this ability anywhere that I can see. Am I crazy, or is the guide incorrect?

the talent hungering runic weapon overrides empower rune weapon changing its name. so if you take say avalanche you would once again see empowered runic weapon but since hungering is the best talent for BOS it makes empowered change to hungering :)

[Valks 2,373]

12 hours ago, Guest Morrivar said:

The guide refers to Empowered Rune Weapon as  cooldown in multiple places, and yet my Frost DK does not have this ability anywhere that I can see. Am I crazy, or is the guide incorrect?

This is a common mistake :) It's always worth checking your talents to see what they actually do, since it will tell you if it replaces another ability or not.

[demonardvark 556]

14 minutes ago, Blainie said:

This is a common mistake :) It's always worth checking your talents to see what they actually do, since it will tell you if it replaces another ability or not.

hungering weapon is so hungry it ate empowered

i'm not sorry XD

[Morgen 0]

I registered to Icy Veins just to post to this thread and the recent removal of the Machinegun style of play on the Frost DK.

 

I have been using Icy Veins almost exclusively as a reference on my classes since i started playing WoW 6 months ago.

 

Not all of us are hardcore raiders but do want to build viable characters.  That being said, to deny users of the site the ability to choose a style of play even though that style may be sub-optimal, in my opinion is not a good decision.  I've tried unholy.  I didn't like it.  I tried blood.  I didn't like it.  I tried BOS style.  I didn't like it.  I really love the machinegun style.  For me, it is smooth and easy on the resources.

 

I was shocked that the writer(s) of the guide would remove a valid  but sub-optimal style (albet according to the writer(s) and theorycrafter(s)) and has reverted to a "cookie-cutter" build with no alternatives.

 

Please restore the Machinegun build.  The writer(s) can always post in the guide that BOS is far superior and should be used in end-game hardcore raiding but please do not take away our right to choose.

 

 

[demonardvark 556]

6 hours ago, Morgen said:

I registered to Icy Veins just to post to this thread and the recent removal of the Machinegun style of play on the Frost DK.

 

I have been using Icy Veins almost exclusively as a reference on my classes since i started playing WoW 6 months ago.

 

Not all of us are hardcore raiders but do want to build viable characters.  That being said, to deny users of the site the ability to choose a style of play even though that style may be sub-optimal, in my opinion is not a good decision.  I've tried unholy.  I didn't like it.  I tried blood.  I didn't like it.  I tried BOS style.  I didn't like it.  I really love the machinegun style.  For me, it is smooth and easy on the resources.

 

I was shocked that the writer(s) of the guide would remove a valid  but sub-optimal style (albet according to the writer(s) and theorycrafter(s)) and has reverted to a "cookie-cutter" build with no alternatives.

 

Please restore the Machinegun build.  The writer(s) can always post in the guide that BOS is far superior and should be used in end-game hardcore raiding but please do not take away our right to choose.

 

 

How does the icy guide recommendation take away your right to choose? No one is coming over to your residence holding you down and forcing you to choose talents. You are free to choose talents in any order you so choose. You want to play MG go ahead. You want to play with shattering strikes, runic attenuation, and glacial advance, do it. It's your game play as you see fit. However, the formal guides have always aimed at what is the competitive realistically useful builds for a spec. Now I want you to consider a question.

Is the current dominance of BOS icy's fault or Blizzards?

With the current set up of legendary items, tier bonuses, and trinkets, blizzard has made BOS so dominantly powerful there are no other options. Plus frost's talent designs for legion were honestly a bit weird. So lets take another spec, say fire mage. There is room for multiple builds. Why? Well there are talent rows with dedicated single and aoe talents. Frost doesn't have this. BOS is such a general beat stick that it mitigates that choice. BOS is a single target attack, its also an aoe attack. It does it all. One stop shopping. 

Now with the upcoming changes to frost scythe and the new legendary ring as well as tier bonuses its looking like some version of MG FsC will return specifically for Mythic plus dungeons. When that happens the guide will be updated as so. However, as it stands choosing machine gun is a dps loss. No matter what you are playing as frost, its dooty poop. We can't help that.

So the TLDR of the response is no one is forcing you to play BOS. You can play whatever you want. However, it is blizzards tuning and design that has made machinegun non competitive and BOS so dominant. You have the freedom to take any talent choice you want. However, as far as truly competitive or Viable options go, there is only one right now. The second another one appears that is viable, that has time to be tested arrives, you'll see it here.

Also the windwalker monk , unholy dk, and balance druid guides says hello

[Guest Khades]

On 4/30/2017 at 9:21 AM, NeoCG said:

The relic choices and artifact progression in the Guide seem to be pretty wrong. Considering the relic charts that were posted in this thread BIS Relics etc. Bad to the Bone is by far the worst trait, it sims so bad it would be a DPS-loss to switch a 865 HB relic for a 925 Racorize. For Singletarget the progression order should be:

Blast Radius>Coldasice=>Ambidexterity>Nothingbuttheboots>>deadofwinter>overpowered>>>Badtothebone>>Defensive

 

How reliable is this document?

[Valks 2,373]

On 6/1/2017 at 4:17 AM, Guest Khades said:

How reliable is this document?

I believe this is the document linked from the DK discord - I'm not sure how often it is updated/changed, but it's what they use as a reference I think. Banter does the ones for the UH discord too.

[Valks 2,373]

We are currently in the process of updating our guides in preparation for the release of 7.2.5 - all questions about "What is better for 7.2.5, X or Y?" will be answered in our guide updates. Thanks for your patience while we get everything completed and good luck in the new patch!

[Guest Frost]

Are all the tomb of sargeras trinkets as bad as they seem? Should we just be sticking with nighthold trinkets for this tier?

[Nyqwill 0]

Just curious, you have Soulbiter listed as 1/1 but it is 1/20. Is this because it's just not worth the resources to purchase anything other than the first tier? Even if so... The guide should show 1/20 so it's clear.

[Draylock 3]

Greetings, friends. 

I see there are a few inconsistencies in the guide if we factor in some of the latest sims done by the DK discord community.

1) Relics - Blast Radius is no longer the best relic choice. Currently, both Ambidexterity and Cold as Ice outperform it.

In T19 ST simulations Ambidexterity is the winner with Cold as Ice following it closely behind (~1k DPS difference) and Blast Radius lagging behind. In AoE situations CaI pulls sightly ahead, but it's basically a safe bet to go for the highest ilvl between Ambi and CaI.

In T20 ST simulations CaI is the better choice up until relic ilvl 905, where Ambi takes over again. This time however both are very comparable in terms of dps (~200-600 DPS difference), and again CaI is better in AoE situations so again you should probably go for the highest ilvl. Nothing but the Boots is 3-4k DPS behind both and is the third place. Blast Radius takes the forth spot, being 300-500 DPS behind NbtB. Again, safe bet is to go for CaI/Ambi with the highest ilvl. NbtB and BR are 5-10 relic ilvls behind, but then again, in AoE situations CaI will take the first place and BR will probably take/compete for the second. Luckily, we've got Frost relics with CaI and Ambi and a Shadow relic with BR from Kil'jaeden, which means it's gonna be 10 ilvl higher than the others.

Source: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1YKc67rKG--nReT8DFqgtol2hwWr_GEYTk5Z1Ar08Csw/edit#gid=1858407321

 

2) Legendaries - currently Cold Heart is a VERY strong choice for single target encounters, even without T20 set bonuses. If you're running with T19 set bonuses it is best paired with the belt or Seal of Necrofantasia, once you get your 4p T20 the best combo is with Toravon's for pretty obvious reasons. The same remains true not only strictly for ST fights but also for priority damage fights/fights where long BoS (40+ seconds) is hard/impossible to maintain due to mechanics/heavy movement.

The new ring is garbage in terms of raiding, I'm afraid. It has limited use in m+ mostly because FrSc procs Rime per cast, not per target hit, so don't expect any kind of amazing AoE damage.

Source: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1YKc67rKG--nReT8DFqgtol2hwWr_GEYTk5Z1Ar08Csw/edit#gid=2104830518

 

3) Stats and BiS - as correctly mentioned, due to how Frost DK stats and scaling work and the whole shtick with "warforged/titanforged" RNG, it's nigh impossible to compile a list of gear that would be set in stone. It is however possible to determine best trinkets. So far, Convergence of Fates is practically a "must have" for BoS build, going way beyond a simple BiS. Of course, you should aim for the highest ilvl you could possibly get, but even a vanila heroic version is enough, since the effect does not change over various versions, only the Strength stat does. In ToS, our best choice is Specter of Betrayal from Kil'jaeden. It has Strength on it and has 10 ilvl higher baseline than the competition. It is also completely unaffected by any of Frost DKs self-buffs, with the exception of Mark of the Claw enchantment which isn't that impactful. This means that we can pretty much use it every CD without worrying about lining it up with other CDs.

Eye of Command is still a very strong choice, as is Horn of Valor if you have T20 bonuses. Actually, both are technically stronger, than Specter of Betrayal up to ilvl 910 for Horn and ilvl 925 for Eye of Command. As always, always sim yourself to have a better idea what's better.

It is also worth mentioning, that Kil'jaeden's Burning Wish is still technically the strongest trinket possible at ilvl 970, however, it is by far not the best use for a Legendary slot.

Source: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1YKc67rKG--nReT8DFqgtol2hwWr_GEYTk5Z1Ar08Csw/edit#gid=1859417161

 

All of the above has been simmed with the latest changes in mind. However, we might see more changes to class balance once Tomb opens.

Edited June 19, 2017 by Draylock

[Valks 2,373]

On 6/18/2017 at 10:49 AM, Guest Frost said:

Are all the tomb of sargeras trinkets as bad as they seem? Should we just be sticking with nighthold trinkets for this tier?

The list that Draylock has posted above actually answers this question better than I can - it's a sim list from the Frost discord that lists all trinkets and item level variations, as well as the DPS contribution of them.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1YKc67rKG--nReT8DFqgtol2hwWr_GEYTk5Z1Ar08Csw/edit#gid=1859417161

[Valks 2,373]

On 6/18/2017 at 2:17 PM, Nyqwill said:

Just curious, you have Soulbiter listed as 1/1 but it is 1/20. Is this because it's just not worth the resources to purchase anything other than the first tier? Even if so... The guide should show 1/20 so it's clear.

As soon as you get Soulbiter, you should do the quest on the Broken Shore to unlock the 7.2 traits. You no longer will build up to 20 points in Soulbiter since they all get refunded as soon as you finish the quest.