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Vengeance and Versatility

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I'm curious just how married to Versatility as the primary stat are we as Vengeance? 

I ask because I've noticed a marked upswing in my own success once I just started focusing on Haste and Mastery, in that order. Granted, what I've done so far tops out at Mythic 5mans (as of this writing nothing higher has been made available). Quicker CDs on some key abilities, Mastery affecting Demon Spikes + Attack Power+Damage/Healing from Soul Cleave, and the fact that it takes a lot of Versatility to move the needle, it FEELS better. I'm just curious if this is the kind of stat prioritization you see the benefit of once you get into the Heroic and Mythic and Mythic+ levels of content?

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I've been tanking mythics and my daily heroic and I go for Mastery>Vers>Crit>Haste...but since I have three items for Veng and the rest is Havoc gear what I end up wearing is more like Crit>Vers=Haste>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Mastery.

I've stacking the Vers when I can because it is the best stat that serves both specs. However, if I was really going for VDH raiding I would go mastery>haste>vers=crit.

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On 9/11/2016 at 6:19 AM, Lockybalboa said:

I've been tanking mythics and my daily heroic and I go for Mastery>Vers>Crit>Haste...but since I have three items for Veng and the rest is Havoc gear what I end up wearing is more like Crit>Vers=Haste>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Mastery.

I've stacking the Vers when I can because it is the best stat that serves both specs. However, if I was really going for VDH raiding I would go mastery>haste>vers=crit.

How do you figure this? The guide for vdh says exactly the opposite. Am I missing something here?

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On 9/11/2016 at 3:19 AM, Lockybalboa said:

mastery>haste>vers=crit.

41 minutes ago, JRam13 said:

How do you figure this? The guide for vdh says exactly the opposite. Am I missing something here?

You're not missing anything, there is just a method to my madness. My stat prio isn't because of the math, it's because of play style and getting what I want from my tanking.

From the guide:

1.1. Survivability

Agility;
Versatility;
Haste >= Mastery;
Critical Strike.


1.2. Damage Output

Agility;
Mastery = Critical Strike >= Versatility >= Haste.

 

I go for survivability over damage 95% of the time on my tanks. Dead tanks are useless.

For survivability haste and mastery are basically equal mathematically, versatility is slightly ahead and then crit is a good ways behind the rest of them.

I hate versatility. It is the best stat for pure damage reduction, but it is also the most constricting. It gives no option for play style or skill level - it is one of the worst design decisions ever made from a high end raiding perspective.

Haste makes things come off CD faster.

Mastery makes Demon Spikes more powerful and gives AP and AP = self healing.

I'm a very high skill tank, I've tanked for years and at a world race level. I can get the absolute most out of my class just about at any time and because of that I gain more from being able to control my class as much as possible. As I said before, versatility does nothing for that. Thus I go for mastery/haste over verse. Personally haste is meh to me, I grab it when I can but I rather have mastery. Haste makes it so I have better uptimes and coverage but that isn't what normally kills me, what normally kills me is an "oh fuck" moment and mastery counters that perfectly.

 

So, in a purely theoretical environment yes - I do take a bit more damage then if I went vers>haste>=mast>crit. In a real raid, when there are mechanics to deal with and I can out skill the boss, I win.

 

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13 hours ago, Lockybalboa said:

You're not missing anything, there is just a method to my madness. My stat prio isn't because of the math, it's because of play style and getting what I want from my tanking.

From the guide:

1.1. Survivability

Agility;
Versatility;
Haste >= Mastery;
Critical Strike.


1.2. Damage Output

Agility;
Mastery = Critical Strike >= Versatility >= Haste.

 

I go for survivability over damage 95% of the time on my tanks. Dead tanks are useless.

For survivability haste and mastery are basically equal mathematically, versatility is slightly ahead and then crit is a good ways behind the rest of them.

I hate versatility. It is the best stat for pure damage reduction, but it is also the most constricting. It gives no option for play style or skill level - it is one of the worst design decisions ever made from a high end raiding perspective.

Haste makes things come off CD faster.

Mastery makes Demon Spikes more powerful and gives AP and AP = self healing.

I'm a very high skill tank, I've tanked for years and at a world race level. I can get the absolute most out of my class just about at any time and because of that I gain more from being able to control my class as much as possible. As I said before, versatility does nothing for that. Thus I go for mastery/haste over verse. Personally haste is meh to me, I grab it when I can but I rather have mastery. Haste makes it so I have better uptimes and coverage but that isn't what normally kills me, what normally kills me is an "oh fuck" moment and mastery counters that perfectly.

 

So, in a purely theoretical environment yes - I do take a bit more damage then if I went vers>haste>=mast>crit. In a real raid, when there are mechanics to deal with and I can out skill the boss, I win.

 

This is a fantastic response, thanks. 

I too have noticed that once you've mastered your rotation, while performing the correct mechanics for bosses, there doesn't seem to be much danger involved. The only exception are those 'oh shit' moments you talk about. It's nice to know that mastery can compensate for this more than the other stats. 

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Actually I think you are missing something. Namely this bit of the guide.

1.3. Dungeons

  1. Agility;
  2. Mastery;
  3. Critical Strike;
  4. Versatility;
  5. Haste.

Crit = Parry.

Parry not only reduces incoming damage, it also activates Blade Turning.

Blade Turning = Pain

Pain = Soul Cleave Healing which is based on Pain Spent.

 

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I didn't miss it, I ignored it. "Dungeons" in this case means 5 man normal, 5 man heroic, and kind of 5 man mythic. It is okay for mythic+ until around M+4-ish depending on comp and skill.

Dungeons are the content right now but they won't be for long. Mythic+ has some good gear in them, but the real end game PvE will always be raiding. i won't build my character around 5 man content when what matters is 20man. That's like training all your life for double A ball when the MLB is just around the corner. I play the for the show, nothing less.

Also, crit does = parry but the conversion is quite bad. Stacking crit as a mitigation stat isn't nearly as effective as other stats. The reason it is recommended in Dungeons is because *generally* speaking the damage taken is so very low in 5 man content that the extra mitigation isn't needed but the added damage is quite useful.

Parry does activate Blade Turning, but Blade Turning is the worst talent on the tier so...you really shouldn't take it...so parry activating it is irrelevant.

Blade Turning's pain generation is not remotely close to the healing you get from the other two talents.

 

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I'm with Locky on this one. I totally understand that mathematically, versatility is better, however I think that what most people fail to realize is actually how much versatility you need to actually gain 1% of any of the bonuses. Doing the quick napkin math on my own gear (armory hasn't updated after I changed a few pieces around), it looks like, if I'm correct, you need 400.09 rating to equal 1% increased damage and healing, and 800.17 rating to equal 1% flat damage reduction. Compare that to Mastery, which requires 233.37 rating for 1% physical damage reduction on demon spikes, and 279.75 rating for 1% Attack Power. 

Now, looking at Haste, the cooldown reduction on Demon Blades at high Mastery levels is pretty huge. Haste also reduces the cooldown on Immolation Aura, which with Fallout, generates a pretty steady amount of soul fragments. So TL:DR, more immolation aura casts equals more souls, which means more healing. 

 

This also doesn't take into account other talents like Spirit Bomb, Fel Devestation, Charred Warblades, Felblade, etc, all of these directly affected by Haste and Mastery increases in some fashion. Like Locky said, in a completely simmed environment, versatility is better; but in the real world, Haste/Mastery just feels better. 

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So a few misconceptions.

So far, many have only been able to tank up too Mythic 0 Dungeons. The stat prio for dungeons is for Mythic+. It also makes complete sense to fall in love with them in the dungeons as that is what they are best at. Which is why they were chosen for the M+ prio. 

Vers and Mastery give very similar results. Vers is better on the abilities that favor Weapon Damage, and Mastery is better on the rest. The actual difference is very minor. Healing wise, Vers does the same. Defensively, Vers helps make up for some magic reduction as well as base reduction outside of DS, which is where we struggle. We don't have issues when Demon Spikes is up, so pumping full bore into it for a raid encounter, where you will have 50% or lower uptime, (~40% with no Haste) isn't as beneficial defensively. Whether or not it is boring is irrelevant when you are talking about min/maxing. If you really want to min/max, then you must deal with it.

Crit is not part of the Dungeon prio for Parry. The amount of parry required is high and it isn't worth aiming for. It is there for the burst dps and the occasional burst heal. It is not there for survival.

Haste is low on the prio because it is more about the sustain. Mythic+ are more about getting in and getting out as quickly as possible. You have time between pulls to take a second for a trinket, which helps you get back your cds etc. 

I also keep seeing a lot that Vers "doesn't change anything with the spec and is therefor boring because it's static". What I want too know is, How do any of the other stats change the gameplay? Outside of Haste ofcourse. Vers gives damage/healing/baseline mitigation, Mastery gives damage/healing/mitigation on an ability you use regardless of the amount of Mastery you have, and Crit that just makes bigger numbers on the screen. 1/4 of the stats change the gameplay, and that 1 stat requires a decent amount to "change" the gameplay.

The prio for dungeons was made based on the experiences of several individuals, whom cleared Mythic+ 12 weekly, and pushed through to 14. If there is significant evidence against the prio, I have no problems changing it. Though many other top tier Tanks agree with it.

 

One other note, I only got the dps prio from sims, the rest were made manually.

Edited by Munkky
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I have nothing to contribute, I just wanted to say this is interesting stuff to read. more pls.

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On 20. 9. 2016 at 3:40 AM, Munkky said:

So a few misconceptions.....

Thank you so much for this final summary - especialy weight of mastery vs versa was very unclear for me.

I have one question: what crit % should we have to "rely" a bit on it? 30+ maybe? Cause right now I am sitting on high versa and mastery and only 23% crit, which isnt realy reliable imho - nor for extra heal, nor DPS gain..

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With the planned upcoming changes to Demon Spikes (bumped up to 20% baseline) and Mastery (50% less damage reduction per point), what net effect do you expect to see? And how will it influence stat priority, if at all?

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On 9/24/2016 at 9:25 AM, TeamC said:

With the planned upcoming changes to Demon Spikes (bumped up to 20% baseline) and Mastery (50% less damage reduction per point), what net effect do you expect to see? And how will it influence stat priority, if at all?

I'm guessing this makes stacking Mastery purely useless? 

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As long as they do the expected nerf of going from 150% to 100%, then nothing changes. If they nerf it more, then the M+ prio will change. We will have to wait and see.

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