WOD BETA DISCUSSION w/SCREENSHOTS

[Kazistrasz 216]

I feel like they should have two versions, internally. One with any complete changes ready to be pushed, and one with WI stuff they can move stuff to pushable when somethings finished. But that would be like organization.

[Djargo 4]

I really wanna play more demo on beta, but ffs pet dies all the time. And what on earth did they do to demonbolt.

 

 

 

Also fuck random tanks that move out of my cataclysm.

[Zagam 1,983]

I really wanna play more demo on beta, but ffs pet dies all the time. And what on earth did they do to demonbolt.

 

 

 

Also fuck random tanks that move out of my cataclysm.

Warlocks are in desperate need for a damage tuning.  It's odd that the beta has continued on this long without a good damage tuning.  It's more than obvious some classes are doing more than double what others are doing.  For proper raid testing, we kinda need to do something a little more like damage tuning for everyone and less taking all the classes doing well now.  Horrible implementation and environment for raid testing.  Hell, we're not even asking for fine tuning.  Just give us something in the ballpark.  50% of other DPS isn't even in the same game.

 

What you're seeing with Demonbolt is someone was working on it and then they put a build out.  Meaning they put a build out while it was still in the works which KINDA explains the 67% nerf to it.  I think they were going to put something in the spell to make it worth casting repeatedly but reversed it and nerfed it.  Whoops.  Communication and coordination aren't exactly on display in the beta development yet.

 

As for Cataclysm, give them credit - it looks like it's going to hurt us.  This is one of those spell effects, much like Rain of Fire, that needs to be seen by only us.  Until tanks are 100% comfortable with Cataclysm (likely only your guild tanks, and likely to struggle even there), get used to them moving out thinking it'll kill them instead.

[Oldtrout 7]

tanks aren't moving out of it because they think it's going to kill them, they are moving out of it because they think "fuck those warlocks ahahaha"

[Soulzar 42]

 

What you're seeing with Demonbolt is someone was working on it and then they put a build out.  Meaning they put a build out while it was still in the works which KINDA explains the 67% nerf to it.  I think they were going to put something in the spell to make it worth casting repeatedly but reversed it and nerfed it.  Whoops.  Communication and coordination aren't exactly on display in the beta development yet.

 

 

When all is said and done, I bet we'll get static Fury cost, 2 charges, 1m cooldown.  They do not want us chain casting it obviously, so why put a trap stacking cost cooldown on it instead of charges like every other "you can chain cast this ability, but within limit" spell.

 

I didn't think you could get any worse than requiring capping your fury to max the spell out, but they somehow topped that.

 

What happens if you are at 9s left on your debuff and you get a trinket proc?  What a waste

 

Its original iteration did not end up playing out as bad as I thought it would with the full fury blow for the refund, but its main hindrance was % based fury cost meaning you had to be fury capped to get its max potential... which ended up being more restrictive than burning your fury at a less than optimal time for the refund.

 

Glyphed darksoul and the "one minute" cycle doesnt feel too bad, but where is the room for haste scaling?  I dont want my fury generation to always be that low...

 

But above everything else, for both Demo and Destro testing my biggest issue when evaluating talents are the clear conflicts.  if you use GoSac, Servitude is Null.  If you use Glyphed Darksoul, Arch Darkness is Null... And until they decide to fix us, GoServ and Servitude don't mesh.

 

Right now I can only mess with the feel of a rotation with different talents as you cant even compare one to the other when you drop a 10 min cd pet for perm version, buff it with two tier talents.... and it does the same dmg as your imp you've had since lvl 1.

[Zagam 1,983]

You gotta remember - we've been overpowered this entire expansion.  We got the Mists Love - the entire expansion had one of our specs, if not all of them, at the top of the meters.  Our utility was unparalleled and our survivability was off the charts.  We ARE going to be normalized, but it will feel like a huge drop on our heads.  Just gotta dust off and keep going. 

 

Two things will arise from all this.

 

1) All the FoTM Warlocks will return to their Mages/Spriests/melee. 

2) All the career Warlocks will find a way to get back to the top.

 

We essentially had an entire expansion devoted to us.  Shoulda been called WoP (Warlocks of Pandaria) instead.  Because of the talent revamp, class redesign, and resource changes, we fit with WoP because they made us fit.  In WoD, it might go back to MoD (Mages of Draenor) because Multistrike and scaling never seems to work with pet based classes while pure big hitters (hi, Mages) will likely come out on top.  HOPEFULLY their balancing efforts are done with balance in mind, but seeing as how we're almost in August with no DPS tunings yet makes me woeful that we won't be done properly.  Hell, the dude working on us isn't even told a new build is coming out. 

 

Brace yourself - Winter is coming, and we're the Starks.

[Lockybalboa 618]

Brace yourself - Winter is coming, and we're the Starks.

 

 

[uconnfan34 4]

In WoD, it might go back to MoD (Mages of Draenor) because Multistrike and scaling never seems to work with pet based classes while pure big hitters (hi, Mages) will likely come out on top.  

 

With that logic, why wouldnt you think destro would be on top as well? Are you assuming nerfs to it? I agree the 2 other specs are looking meh at best, but at least at this point destro still has a chance. The only obvious thing is casting rof on the move is so wonky. Juuuussssstttt give us fel flame back 

[Zagam 1,983]

Chaos Bolt doesn't feel very "Chaos"-like at this point.  It feels like a mild nuke, not the mega nuke it is now.  The damage feels gimped, mostly because they want to make it an AoE spell.  Don't get me wrong - it's neat - but there's far more pressing matters to work on before trying to care about AoE CBs.  If damage isn't fixed and they don't get our talents situated, AoE CBs will only be used on target dummies while better casters see raids. 

 

I'm overplaying this to make the point that it just feels like we suck now.

[Kazistrasz 216]

The couldn't call it WoP or else there would be a revolt by some Italians, and you really don't want the Italians mad at you.

 

We'll make warlocks still look good, but it'll help when they actually fix all the things they've broken about us so far.

[vaeevictiss 17]

Ive been playing a lock since vanilla, and this has been the first time i really thought we were in trouble. I started saying it even before people got on Beta.

 

Everyone here told me not to worry and we'll be fine...well its nice to see even Zagam agrees warlocks really got served a big plate of dick. 

 

I was killing some elite bird earlier, and some one else came along, (didnt see what class, didnt care at the time) and pulled another, and I swear it seemed like they 4 shot it and im still there wailing away at mine with chaos bolts.

 

 

Is aff doing any better?

 

Also, is charred remains the better one to be using at the moment? Cata seems like aoe and quite frankly is unimpressive. Oh wow you let me put immo on everything? thats cool, i can do the same thing with FnB. 

[Oldtrout 7]

Hell, the dude working on us isn't even told a new build is coming out. 

Milton, in the basement, not even getting his paychecks

 

[Soulzar 42]

 

2) All the career Warlocks will find a way to get back to the top.

 

Brace yourself - Winter is coming, and we're the Starks.

 

#2 has always been the case!  Our specs are diverse enough that we can always find one that performs well given a fights mechanics.  Also, the Stark quote is funny, because like Bran.. we lost our mobility... but.. we'll not need it because we will learn to fly!! (demo flight form!!)  And we will have Hodor as a new guardian...

 

With that logic, why wouldnt you think destro would be on top as well? Are you assuming nerfs to it? I agree the 2 other specs are looking meh at best, but at least at this point destro still has a chance. The only obvious thing is casting rof on the move is so wonky. Juuuussssstttt give us fel flame back 

 

Actually, I have no specifically tested full Mastery gear/enchants for destro yet, but I am finding that full Multistrike is working better for me than crit.  This does not surprise me much as MS is just another form of Crit.   

 

 

 

Also, is charred remains the better one to be using at the moment? Cata seems like aoe and quite frankly is unimpressive. Oh wow you let me put immo on everything? thats cool, i can do the same thing with FnB. 

 

 

Charred Remains is really not as OP as people think.  In fact I do as much dmg, if not more by not even picking a lvl 100 talent...as I do with CR.  I honestly can't take the CR playstyle... its too much.  Knowing that if you pop conflag with more than 2 embers you will cap 4 embers before you can cast a CB that doesnt eat backdraft stacks.... or having barely enough filler time to actually use your backdraft charges on incin..... bank embers for procs? lol nope... no more

 

Charred remains needs to add a 5th Ember to work, unless they tone down the ember generation.  AoE is cluncky (though admittedly with practice this issue would go away) because you can easily drop out of F&B when CB costs two embers.... and you AoE is basically balanced round every other cast being a CB since your Incin/conflag dmg is neutered.

 

Cataclysm is just as bad.  cast time longer than a CB, hits for less than a CB, would be impossible to use on moving targets unlike just toggling on F&B, and its cooldown severely limits its uses in practical situation.  Servitude, while the "dumb passive no skill" talent, is looking like the most appealing honestly.  It was made much much better for affliction now that it aplies Agony instead of Corruption, but for destro.. it needs something else if it want to compete on that tier with CR as an AoE talent.. even the Infernal is looking like a more promising AoE option than Cataclysm lol.  Cataclysm is a spell i have high hopes for, hopefully they can save it... 

Edited July 29, 2014 by Soulzar

[vaeevictiss 17]

I really hate Blizzs BS excuses that pop up on the blue tracker too "Well you cant say you guys werent pretty powerful this expansion". So thats a good reason to just cut our damage in half or more? Thats crap. I dont mind a lot of the changes, i do however mind how ridiculously under-powered we are compared to most other classes. There is only so much skill can make up for. You cant beat the math if it just isnt there to support high dps.

[juribe 1]

I really don't understand why people are concerned about damage when they've avoided damage tuning so far. Right now it's about design of classes (and raids), not tuning to be equal damage.

[Zagam 1,983]

I really don't understand why people are concerned about damage when they've avoided damage tuning so far. Right now it's about design of classes (and raids), not tuning to be equal damage.

Can't test raids without damage being operable.

[juribe 1]

Can't test raids without damage being operable.

...What? Of course you can. Testing mechanics, strats, etc. The only time damage would matter in beta raid testing is if you needed to push to a 2nd phase to see more mechanics and pushing to that phase was a DPS check. It would be valid to complain about damage if you were below tanks or something but in our testing and in the majority of logs I've looked at for beta testing. locks are middle of the pack or better.

[Zagam 1,983]

6.0 doesn't bring new raids - it brings a raid we've already been doing, which is SoO.  This needs to be able to be completed.  Current SoO tests show that some classes are simply unserviceable and need to be addressed.  So, no, not all raid testing can be completed.

 

Most new raid testing is difficult to do when certain classes lag so far behind that they're unable to make contributions equal to the rest.  This makes testing add phases difficult to do because certain classes that are good at dealing with adds now might not be later and certainly aren't in the beta.  You have enrage testing issues because DPS numbers aren't aligned.  You have character design issues going on right now that might completely alter how an encounter is approached later on with a new/altered talent trivializing some mechanic. 

 

There are a lot of issues with the beta that prevent accurate testing.  With that said, it goes without saying that it has little importance if they continue the trend of not listening to a majority of the issues reported. 

[Zagam 1,983]

To reiterate, you CAN do testing - but it's hard to get accurate, meaningful testing done before a moderate amount of tuning has taken place. 

[vaeevictiss 17]

im willing to bet they will do plenty of tuning, but i fear the age of warlocks may be over lol. I mean, look at our history. We rocked in vanilla, especially PvP (which i really didnt and still dont care for). 

 

We rocked end game in BC, Wrath, Cata, and MoP....our time is dwindling lol. Im just worried they are going to turn us into what they did to rogues in this expansion...nearly useless. We can't say Blizzard has not favored us. Even when they tried to nerf us, we made it work. even when they didnt want us to top meters, we topped meters.

 

That being said, there is only so much that technique and skill can do. It all comes down to the math thats programmed into the game, and thats not something we can change.

[Zagam 1,983]

im willing to bet they will do plenty of tuning, but i fear the age of warlocks may be over lol. I mean, look at our history. We rocked in vanilla, especially PvP (which i really didnt and still dont care for). 

 

We rocked end game in BC, Wrath, Cata, and MoP....our time is dwindling lol. Im just worried they are going to turn us into what they did to rogues in this expansion...nearly useless. We can't say Blizzard has not favored us. Even when they tried to nerf us, we made it work. even when they didnt want us to top meters, we topped meters.

 

That being said, there is only so much that technique and skill can do. It all comes down to the math thats programmed into the game, and thats not something we can change.

We're not done.  We're one of 3 4 classes with 3 different specs that do nothing but inflict pain.  One of our specs will be good. 

 

EDIT: Fixed typo.  Thanks, Zilth

[Oldtrout 7]

For us to be weak, Blizzard are going to have to purposefully spite warlocks because of our strength in MoP (their doing). We are one of four pure DPS classes in the game, and it's not as if the other 3 haven't had as good a time of it as we have over the years. It's just what happens - to always be strong in DPS, you choose a DPS class. If you want to play a hybrid, you have to sacrifice the likelihood of always being near / at the top.

[gahhda 95]

For all of those in this forum with access to beta, I'd like to direct you to my thread: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/13681338110?page=1#3

 

Keeping discussion going here is fine, but at least take the time to post your opinions in a medium where the devs might actually see your opinions. Otherwise, nothing will ever get changed!

 

For all of you 'the sky is falling' folks, yes and no.

 

The sky is falling if you care about your single target rotation being enjoyable in any way shape or form. It is not falling if all you care about is being one of/the strongest spec/s.

 

Warlocks are incredibly strong in beta raid testing despite being mediocre, and actually behind other classes, single target. We have some of the best aoe and cleave mechanics in the game, some of the best snap burst, blahblahblah. Warlocks will be good.

 

However, they won't be fun if you like affliction or destruction.

 

Charred remains is awful, and so is SB:Haunt.

[gahhda 95]

Actually, I have no specifically tested full Mastery gear/enchants for destro yet, but I am finding that full Multistrike is working better for me than crit.  This does not surprise me much as MS is just another form of Crit.   

 

 

Charred Remains is really not as OP as people think.  In fact I do as much dmg, if not more by not even picking a lvl 100 talent...as I do with CR.  I honestly can't take the CR playstyle... its too much.  Knowing that if you pop conflag with more than 2 embers you will cap 4 embers before you can cast a CB that doesnt eat backdraft stacks.... or having barely enough filler time to actually use your backdraft charges on incin..... bank embers for procs? lol nope... no more

 

Charred remains needs to add a 5th Ember to work, unless they tone down the ember generation.  AoE is cluncky (though admittedly with practice this issue would go away) because you can easily drop out of F&B when CB costs two embers.... and you AoE is basically balanced round every other cast being a CB since your Incin/conflag dmg is neutered.

 

Cataclysm is just as bad.  cast time longer than a CB, hits for less than a CB, would be impossible to use on moving targets unlike just toggling on F&B, and its cooldown severely limits its uses in practical situation.  Servitude, while the "dumb passive no skill" talent, is looking like the most appealing honestly.  It was made much much better for affliction now that it aplies Agony instead of Corruption, but for destro.. it needs something else if it want to compete on that tier with CR as an AoE talent.. even the Infernal is looking like a more promising AoE option than Cataclysm lol.  Cataclysm is a spell i have high hopes for, hopefully they can save it... 

 

Multi-strikes don't generate burning embers, so critical strike is actually better (most of the time). At least with charred remains, I haven't really tested anything without it, because it's basically mandatory right now.

 

Either way, mastery is the god statistic single target for warlocks again, across all specializations.

 

Charred remains is in fact a rather large damage gain, it's just so disgustingly awful to play that it's hard to notice. Current sim shows ~10% damage gain from running charred remains vs no talent. It should be noted that it is very much harder to SEE a dps difference now. 10% of 20k is 2k. Seeing variances that small can be hard to look at and go, 'damn..thats a 10% gain!.'

 

Cataclysm is a fine mechanic, it just pales in comparison to an AoE chaos bolt mechanically. It will be tuned, it will be worth using for burst aoe, the devs aren't stupid. But, it's just flat out mechanically worse than an aoe chaos bolt, period. The issue with cataclysm isn't cataclysm, it's charred remains.

Edited August 1, 2014 by gahhda

[Zagam 1,983]

For all of those in this forum with access to beta, I'd like to direct you to my thread: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/13681338110?page=1#3

 

Keeping discussion going here is fine, but at least take the time to post your opinions in a medium where the devs might actually see your opinions. Otherwise, nothing will ever get changed!

The battle.net forums need purged with fire before I'll return there.