6.1 Demonology Guide

[Deamux 4]

Awesome, can't wait tot test it out!

 

Edit the edit:

It does work when I was fully raid buffed :)

Edited December 3, 2014 by Deamux

[Watermasta 7]

Has it been tested if Multistrike hits generate demonic fury?

[Deamux 4]

I'm really sad now, we couldn't kill the butcher. Not enough DPS. For me personally I seem to be maxed out at 18k - 18.5k. I'll post some logs soon in a different topic.

[Astynax 24]

I'm really sad now, we couldn't kill the butcher. Not enough DPS. For me personally I seem to be maxed out at 18k - 18.5k. I'll post some logs soon in a different topic.

Don't feel bad. We smashed our faces into it for the better part of three hours [beat attempt at 16% or so before we hit the timer] on Wednesday (before any of the raid had touched a normal mode boss) because "you should be able to go straight from heroic dungeon gear and a few CMs into heroic raid progression" - Blizzard, the liar. At some point towards the end, someone did the math and not counting tank dps, each member no matter how far we downsized to reduce DPS requirement had to pull something like 20.8k DPS, which I've only ever seen from pristine pulls, where the guy gets as close as possible to 100% uptime on the boss. Any boss. The guy is ridiculously gear gated.

Edited December 6, 2014 by Astynax

[Lockybalboa 618]

Logs of my HM Butcher kill:

 

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wn3Rz8HfYgZ2aDhk/#type=damage-done

 

We had to drop two lower DPS to get the kill. Spriest and Enh sham that were at 14-15k

[Astynax 24]

Logs of my HM Butcher kill:

 

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wn3Rz8HfYgZ2aDhk/#type=damage-done

 

We had to drop two lower DPS to get the kill. Spriest and Enh sham that were at 14-15k

Yeah, like I said, the math only counted DPSers damage, not tank or healers. We knew 20.8k was a little high, but even if we were 1.5k high, our average still looked about 1-2k low, no matter how many we dropped. (Stopped between 15 and 20, as we figured by that point it was imprudent, and we'd be better off spending time gearing everyone.) It was hasty, just to see how far off we really were.

[KoragonArt 0]

Logs of my HM Butcher kill:

 

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wn3Rz8HfYgZ2aDhk/#type=damage-done

 

We had to drop two lower DPS to get the kill. Spriest and Enh sham that were at 14-15k

That's incredible.  Only MAYBE 70% of that hunter's output.  Marks hunters, man...

Edited December 6, 2014 by KoragonArt

[KoragonArt 0]

Also the 3x DB cast sequence works.  Feels a bit RNG being able to pull off the 3rd one smoothly.  Sometimes you have the fury, sometimes you don't.  With raid buffs it should be more consistent.  Don't like that I have to use imp swarm to make it work.

Edited December 6, 2014 by KoragonArt

[Astynax 24]

Also the 3x DB cast sequence works.  Feels a bit RNG being able to pull off the 3rd one smoothly.  Sometimes you have the fury, sometimes you don't.  With raid buffs it should be more consistent.  Don't like that I have to use imp swarm to make it work.

So... Obvious question is obvious: how much damage does this rob you of?/gain you on a 6 minute fight? (Maybe should go higher? Not sure.)

[spikeysquad 50]

Over the full fight I think that we're talking gaining not even one extra DB (because there's usually a bit of fury left over from just 2) compared to losing the damage of GoSuP Vs GoServ and having to glyph Imp Swarm. This is just a personal feeling as I don't have the skills to compare the numbers but it doesn't sound like a good trade off especially if you cannot line the extra felguard cds up with a bunch of adds or you finish the fight just before you get your last cd off.

Edited December 6, 2014 by spikeysquad

[Zagam 1,983]

Posted this in another thread as a thinking-out-loud moment.  Posting it here for relevancy.

 

 

After looking at logs, it's looking a lot more like you use DB every 40 seconds, not delaying it for DS.  The trade off is DS uptime because of how you delay it.  DB is too much damage to delay, so every 20 seconds you delay it for DS is a DPS loss, although combining it with Dark Soul compensates a small bit. 

Without glyphing it, this is how it looks:

0 seconds - DS + DB
40 seconds - DB
80 seconds - DB
120 seconds - DS + DB
160 seconds - DB
200 seconds - DB
240 seconds - DS + DB

DS uptime through 260 seconds would be 60/260 = 23%.

Basically without glyphing it, every 3rd one is DB phase + 30%.  Since DB is by far the highest damage source, you want to push it out as much as possible.  This is, of course, if you use it right in line every time.  This discredits trinket syncronization.

If you were to instead delay DB for a glyphed DS, you obviously would lose a lot.  No need to evaluate this.

If you glyph DS, then your values look like this if you do NOT delay DB for DS.

0 seconds - DS + DB
40 seconds - DB
60 seconds - DS
80 seconds - DB
120 seconds - DS + DB
160 seconds - DB
180 seconds - DS
200 seconds - DB
240 seconds - DS + DB

DS uptime through 260 seconds = 50/260 = 19%

Here, you are getting 3 DB phases with DS, the same as you would without the glyph, so this is ok.  It'll be goofy to use DS without DB especially in the instance where you could delay DS by 20 seconds, BUT if you ever delay it, you will only delay the next DS + DB phase.  You will, however, have a slightly lower overall DS uptime if you glyph it and don't delay it.

If you DO delay DS for DB, it looks like this:

0 seconds - DS + DB
40 seconds - DB
80 seconds - DS + DB
120 seconds - DB
160 seconds - DB + DS
200 seconds - DB
240 seconds - DB + DS

DS uptime over 260 seconds = 40/260 = 15%.

Here, you get FOUR phases with DB + DS IF YOU DELAY DARK SOUL UNTIL YOUR NEXT DB PHASE.  Basically, every other DB phase will be empowered.  If you talent AD, and it's not broken, you should theoretically be able to pick any other 40 second interval and also combine DB with DS, but you can only do this once.  This would, however, give you the flexibility of having another burst window.  However, notice that your overall DS uptime drops to 15%.  This is important to keep in mind because by glyphing it, you increase your DB + DS phases by 1 but have an 8% decrease in DS uptime over 260 seconds.  Basically, you choose if you want higher burst during DB or higher uptime with DS.  Since DB is intricate and by far our most valuable spell, choosing the glyph is fine but not choosing the glyph is ok, too.  The difference should be very small, but if you glyph it, you MUST delay DS for DB for the value to come out ahead. 

All of this evaluation is done with 240-260 seconds, so longer fights will have different feedback numbers, but they won't be different enough to come up with a steadfast conclusion.  This, however, WILL be different if a fight lasts with lengths of 3:00, 5:00, or 7:00, where a non-glyphed DS wouldn't be usable and would be 60 seconds away from being used again.  Glyphing DS gives you more flexibility on fight durations to maximize your uptime.  This is similar in difference between GoSupremacy and GoService in terms of burst potential with your Felguard - if a fight lasts even minutes (2, 4, 6:00, etc), Service tends to win out.  However, the window of of 2:00-2:20 and 6:00-6:20 is smaller than 6:20-8:00 and 4:20-6:00. 

Basically, you're nitpicking very small numbers, but it will have SOME impact.  Overall, I suggest glyphing Dark Soul and delaying it for DB but only if you can do this perfectly on schedule every time.  Not glyphing it is ok and will make your opening burst even more powerful. 

God does it feel good to get into numbers again.  I'm on my way home in 45 minutes and will be at my computer at home in the mountains of WV in 12 hours.  Hope this wasn't confusing...I may or may not be enjoying my last rum punch.

[Watermasta 7]

NEEERRRDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

 

Just kidding! Very informative! Enjoyed the read!

[Astynax 24]

Posted this in another thread as a thinking-out-loud moment.  Posting it here for relevancy.

 

 

After looking at logs, it's looking a lot more like you use DB every 40 seconds, not delaying it for DS.  The trade off is DS uptime because of how you delay it.  DB is too much damage to delay, so every 20 seconds you delay it for DS is a DPS loss, although combining it with Dark Soul compensates a small bit. 

Without glyphing it, this is how it looks:

0 seconds - DS + DB

40 seconds - DB

80 seconds - DB

120 seconds - DS + DB

160 seconds - DB

200 seconds - DB

240 seconds - DS + DB

DS uptime through 260 seconds would be 60/260 = 23%.

Basically without glyphing it, every 3rd one is DB phase + 30%.  Since DB is by far the highest damage source, you want to push it out as much as possible.  This is, of course, if you use it right in line every time.  This discredits trinket syncronization.

If you were to instead delay DB for a glyphed DS, you obviously would lose a lot.  No need to evaluate this.

If you glyph DS, then your values look like this if you do NOT delay DB for DS.

0 seconds - DS + DB

40 seconds - DB

60 seconds - DS

80 seconds - DB

120 seconds - DS + DB

160 seconds - DB

180 seconds - DS

200 seconds - DB

240 seconds - DS + DB

DS uptime through 260 seconds = 50/260 = 19%

Here, you are getting 3 DB phases with DS, the same as you would without the glyph, so this is ok.  It'll be goofy to use DS without DB especially in the instance where you could delay DS by 20 seconds, BUT if you ever delay it, you will only delay the next DS + DB phase.  You will, however, have a slightly lower overall DS uptime if you glyph it and don't delay it.

If you DO delay DS for DB, it looks like this:

0 seconds - DS + DB

40 seconds - DB

80 seconds - DS + DB

120 seconds - DB

160 seconds - DB + DS

200 seconds - DB

240 seconds - DB + DS

DS uptime over 260 seconds = 40/260 = 15%.

Here, you get FOUR phases with DB + DS IF YOU DELAY DARK SOUL UNTIL YOUR NEXT DB PHASE.  Basically, every other DB phase will be empowered.  If you talent AD, and it's not broken, you should theoretically be able to pick any other 40 second interval and also combine DB with DS, but you can only do this once.  This would, however, give you the flexibility of having another burst window.  However, notice that your overall DS uptime drops to 15%.  This is important to keep in mind because by glyphing it, you increase your DB + DS phases by 1 but have an 8% decrease in DS uptime over 260 seconds.  Basically, you choose if you want higher burst during DB or higher uptime with DS.  Since DB is intricate and by far our most valuable spell, choosing the glyph is fine but not choosing the glyph is ok, too.  The difference should be very small, but if you glyph it, you MUST delay DS for DB for the value to come out ahead. 

All of this evaluation is done with 240-260 seconds, so longer fights will have different feedback numbers, but they won't be different enough to come up with a steadfast conclusion.  This, however, WILL be different if a fight lasts with lengths of 3:00, 5:00, or 7:00, where a non-glyphed DS wouldn't be usable and would be 60 seconds away from being used again.  Glyphing DS gives you more flexibility on fight durations to maximize your uptime.  This is similar in difference between GoSupremacy and GoService in terms of burst potential with your Felguard - if a fight lasts even minutes (2, 4, 6:00, etc), Service tends to win out.  However, the window of of 2:00-2:20 and 6:00-6:20 is smaller than 6:20-8:00 and 4:20-6:00. 

Basically, you're nitpicking very small numbers, but it will have SOME impact.  Overall, I suggest glyphing Dark Soul and delaying it for DB but only if you can do this perfectly on schedule every time.  Not glyphing it is ok and will make your opening burst even more powerful. 

God does it feel good to get into numbers again.  I'm on my way home in 45 minutes and will be at my computer at home in the mountains of WV in 12 hours.  Hope this wasn't confusing...I may or may not be enjoying my last rum punch.

 

 

Going off of this, because maths.

 

Liquid and I were having a convo the other day about using a 3 demonbolt rotation instead of 4, to which my immediate reply was "that doesn't sound very normal..." Did the napkin math on it, using my approx demonbolt hit.

 

 

22k + 26.4k + 30.8k = 79.2k demo bolt damage every 32 seconds. 

22k + 26.4k + 30.8k + 39.6k = 119.2k damage every minute. 

32/60 = 53.3% of time spent. 100 - 53.3 = 46.7 

79.2k x 1.467 = 116.18k. So it's a little less demo bolt damage. Meaning you have to make that up somewhere. Close enough to make a difference in fights that hinder you with movement, and maybe to matter with soul fire damage, but not leaps and bounds ahead. 

 

 

I make a couple of assumptions with them, but it was meant to be an estimate. Later on, I realized it has some surprising implications in terms of haste value: that is, if you can get demonbolt debuff below a 30 second, or to a 30 second duration, and the fury generation can't keep up with the rotation, I could see a 3 then 4 rotation coming up as the best. I'm not sure though, and haven't done enough testing to say one way or the other. Your math proves the case of delaying DS though. So yeah. Just an idea.

[Liquidsteel 279]

I uploaded Twins and Ko'ragh to my youtube channel. Twins was poor play all round but was decent damage nontheless.

[Desos 18]

Logs of my HM Butcher kill:

 

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wn3Rz8HfYgZ2aDhk/#type=damage-done

 

We had to drop two lower DPS to get the kill. Spriest and Enh sham that were at 14-15k

 

Compared to our kill(avg ilvl just 2 higher than yours), I would suggest you would have been better off with dropping a healer or so. 5/18 versus 6/30.

 

But in general I think that the bosses are tighter tuned on a smaller rooster.

We tried to kill the Imperator on nhc out of fun with 13 peopl with maybe like 70% mains. Didn´t managed to get past mid P3. 

With our mainraid we managed a kill on heroic with 30 people after everyone figured out how to trigger mines(Hint: Never).

[Soulzar 42]

 

With our mainraid we managed a kill on heroic with 30 people after everyone figured out how to trigger mines(Hint: Never).

 

It was clear after last nights attempts that our raid group needs another week of gear to not trigger mines.  Gear issue only... lol

[Lockybalboa 618]

It was clear after last nights attempts that our raid group needs another week of gear to not trigger mines.  Gear issue only... lol

 

 

I truly believe that the only time a raid is good at dodging fire and switching to adds is when they know that downing bosses is more fun then raiding with them as individuals. If one of them stands in the way of downing a boss, replace them.

[Zagam 1,983]

I'm still learning stuff since I had an 11 day handicap where I didn't touch the game.  Just verifying what I've read and seen and not yet experienced.  I wasn't sure if you should ever delay it or not, but I can definitely see why you always use the glyph. 

 

Is AD absoutely essential?  Aren't you just getting one more +30% DB phase?  Is that worth giving up guaranteed KJC every time you DB cycle so you never interrupt yourself with movement?

[Adrammalech 2]

Yes AD + DS glyph is a definite dps increase. It isn't just simply one more stronger DB cycle. The fact that you take them both allows not only for DS to come off CD quicker and line up almost perfectly time wise for you DB dump(10 second duration max of 4 DBs @ 8 seconds total), but also allows flexibility in when you cast DS. Since you can store the extra charge, You basically just cast DS for a demonbolt cycle if it is up. If you DS comes up and you are still waiting for a DB cycle then you can hold on to it and not have to worry about the CD because the next charge is charging. You end up having DS up for 70% of your DB cycles since it easily cover's 2/3rds of them but you start off with 2 charges so it is slightly more. 

 

Edit: That being said you can also opt into going a build where you take service along with having 2 on use trinkets (copeland's and shards). Using this method you only have DS for every 3 DB cycles but that cycle is also always going to have trinkets up for it along with service being strong as hell. This is the build I have been using until the DS bug gets fixed. It also works wonders on short fights if you take imp swarm and allows you to use 3 DBs during your opener if you open up with your doom guard as well.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Adrammalech

[Serial 0]

should we cast x3 DB if we don't have fury for x4 DB when the debuff falls, or should we wait for enough fury to cast 4 DBs? I'm kinda having this problem right now =|

[Liquidsteel 279]

Think it's best to just cast 3 and carry on.

[Adrammalech 2]

As long as you have enough fury for 2, you want to go ahead and cast it and move on, which should never ever be an issue. Therefore cast DB as soon as the debuff falls off.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Adrammalech

[Soulzar 42]

Last night we did a Normal clear and I decided to get some more practice in with Demo and it did very well.  I played Demonbolt/KJC/GoSyn and KJC is kinda awesome.  Can either be used to ensure you can continue to hard cast fury generators to not mess up timing on DB dumps, or can be used to ensure you don't get interrupted during your DB dump.  I used for both Twins and Tectus.... Kar'gath, Butcher, and Ko'ragh I used AD... Braken and Imp I played Destro.. because Havoc.

 

I had a Demonbolt hit for over 200k on Twins!  

 

RL was not running logs sadly as I wanted to go over after to see where I could improve.  I will have to start doing personal logs.  Based off memory, on Twins I was doing 30k going into the execute phase.. fubbed it up and ended somewhere between 26-27k, though was still very happy with the kill.

 

I was also very pleased with Demo Single target on Butcher and Bladefist. 

 

I'm torn what I want to play on Mythic tonight for Bladefist... lol

[CarlosFS 0]

I have a problem, and big one , you see, i am a raider as a Demonology Warlock and i absolutely hate playing as a destruction , but my DPS, is a little garbage right now and i dont know what i am doing wrong and i fear for my safety in the core.... i will post my informations here to check if you guys could help me 

thanks. 

 

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/goldrinn/Malacath/simple - Armory.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/AQp3xRzHgGJNBa14#fight=4 .

[Liquidsteel 279]

Gear

 

- Gem your cloak. Also why are you still using two sub 630 blue items. Your gloves and trinket should easily be 630 by now, go spam some heroic dungeons to get what you need, it's basically free gear.

 

Logs

 

 - On Kargath your corruption uptime was 85% and Doom 95%. Get these both to 98%+

 - Your Hand of Gul'dan usage was poor. You got out of sync and kept casting one at a time. You need to stack the DoT better.

 - You opted to cast 3x Demonbolts per cycle. You used them well with Dark Soul and everything looks fine.

 - You didn't use a second potion. You forgot to use your on-use trinket other than at the start. Bind it / track it / use it!

 - You cast A LOT of touch of chaos' for a relatively short fight. I know you were using 3x Demonbolt strat, but perhaps this could be a reason for low DPS in that you wasted a lot of Fury on them. Most likely movement and poor planning around it caused your low dps. 

 

Fix some of the above issues and you should see an increase across the board.