6.1 Demonology Guide

[Zagam 1,983]

From the guide:

 

"TL;DR - Mastery >= Haste (to about 10%) > Crit = Multistrike > Haste = Versatility"

 

Does that mean 10% self or raid buffed please? I'm sitting at 4% self buffed and the haste value is already dropping off but that just could be because I have so much of it compared to other stats as I was/am gearing more towards Affliction.

That means you need about 10% in combat in order to fuel the necessary Demonic Fury generation.  The guide was written with a 4 Demonbolt basis, but with some using a 3 DB cycle, the 10% Haste isn't required.  Please remember that the difference between these stats is very small.

[spikeysquad 50]

Thanks Zagam for the reply. Yeah I tend to use the 3 DB cycle as I never seem to get enough fury which lends me to my next request. I imagine that you are really busy with progress but do you think that you could update the main guide please to reflect the current thinking on the usage of Demonbolt rather than just the get 850 fury dump 4 method? Or is the latter still better? Perhaps even something about how long to wait for DS/other procs and so on? I know a lot of it is in multiple pages in this thread but to have it together would be fantastic if it is not too much effort. 

 

I know that it is probably only used on one or two fights but I would really like some information on how to do a Cata Rotation as well please. Well I mean a non-Demonbolting rotation so like whether to cast Soul Fire and Cata in Meta only. When to enter Meta, how long to stay, whether we should be using the DS glyph here and so on. This is what I need to improve on majorly at the moment and I am a little unclear of what I should be doing.

 

P.S, Just to be aware that I have also asked some of these Cata questions in the Help My DPS thread but hopefully I am not causing too much trouble or duplicates. And yes I will try to pay any help forward.

Edited January 5, 2015 by spikeysquad

[Zagam 1,983]

Thanks Zagam for the reply. Yeah I tend to use the 3 DB cycle as I never seem to get enough fury which lends me to my next request. I imagine that you are really busy with progress but do you think that you could update the main guide please to reflect the current thinking on the usage of Demonbolt rather than just the get 850 fury dump 4 method? Or is the latter still better? Perhaps even something about how long to wait for DS/other procs and so on? I know a lot of it is in multiple pages in this thread but to have it together would be fantastic if it is not too much effort. 

It's fight dependent - super easy on Butcher to land 4 DBs - more difficult on Kargath (Mythic at least) and other fights with intermittent movement.  I've been toying with the idea of macroing KJC with Dark Soul just so I can always get my DBs off.  With that said, if you're playing your rotation perfectly in keeping Corruption up, using Soul Fire appropriately, and not getting shafted by Doom RNG, you should easily be able to get enough DF to get 4 DBs each cycle.  Movement hurts Demo's ability to build DF, however, so on movement encounters, 3 suffices. 

 

You do NOT delay Demonbolt for Dark Soul or other buffs. 

[Soulzar 42]

 

I know that it is probably only used on one or two fights but I would really like some information on how to do a Cata Rotation as well please. Well I mean a non-Demonbolting rotation so like whether to cast Soul Fire and Cata in Meta only. When to enter Meta, how long to stay, whether we should be using the DS glyph here and so on. This is what I need to improve on majorly at the moment and I am a little unclear of what I should be doing.

 

 

I've found that in most of the situations I am using Cata its due to having multiple dooms rolling.  In these cases your MC charges come in about as fast as you can use them and I have been liberally casting SF outside of Meta over SB.  I do not use DS glyph as I have 20s trinket proc and a longer than 10s fury dump window, despite Cata being a 1m cooldown.

[spikeysquad 50]

You do NOT delay Demonbolt for Dark Soul or other buffs. 

 

Ok thank you. That makes sense but I guess that we would delay DS for DB? 

 

I've found that in most of the situations I am using Cata its due to having multiple dooms rolling.  In these cases your MC charges come in about as fast as you can use them and I have been liberally casting SF outside of Meta over SB.  I do not use DS glyph as I have 20s trinket proc and a longer than 10s fury dump window, despite Cata being a 1m cooldown.

 

Thanks Soulzar I think that I am heading on the right track then. Over the next couple of days I will go as Demo in LFR without DB and then do a normal Tectus and see how I do and it feels then probably get some stuff written up then come back with a bunch more questions!  

[Twinkielock 15]

I know these situations aren't ideal but sometimes mistakes are made and/or you get a string of luck (or bad luck)  What should you do for these situations?

 

#1.  You die, and get a battle rez.  Do you summon your pet immediately or do you wait until you have 200 fury pop meta and get an instant summon pet?

 

#2.  You are approaching 1k fury AND you have the demonbolt debuff still.  Do you want to drop the debuff or do you launch a single massive demonbolt?

 

#3.   The trinket that has the on-use haste proc.  (Name escapes me right now as I'm at work).  When should that be used?

 

 

Thanks

Edited January 7, 2015 by Twinkielock

[Zinthar 2]

I know these situations aren't ideal but sometimes mistakes are made and/or you get a string of luck (or bad luck)  What should you do for these situations?

 

#1.  You die, and get a battle rez.  Do you summon your pet immediately or do you wait until you have 200 fury pop meta and get an instant summon pet?

 

#2.  You are approaching 1k fury AND you have the demonbolt debuff still.  Do you want to drop the debuff or do you launch a single massive demonbolt?

 

#3.   The trinket that has the on-use haste proc.  (Name escapes me right now as I'm at work).  When should that be used?

 

 

Thanks

 

I'm somewhat new to the Demo spec, but I've been playing the hell out of it for the past few weeks and have read through the Icy Veins Demo guide enough times that I practically have it memorized, so perhaps I can answer a few of those questions before someone more knowledgable comes along to give a definitive answer.

 

1) My guess is that you instantly start your fury-building rotation until you have enough fury to get the instant pet + doom on the relevant targets.  If you summon the pet first, you're missing out on a lot of Corruption, Doom, and Hand of Gul'dan up-time and their various benefits.  I'll try simulating this situation with a dummy. 

 

2) If you have 1k fury again, then your debuff is probably almost ready to expire, in which case you should almost certainly let it expire before using Demonbolt.  In the meantime, you could use some fury to apply/refresh doom, use touch of chaos if you need to refresh corruption, or use soul fire if you have MC procs.  If your cooldown on Dark Soul is about come up, then I'd definitely wait.

 

3) I just got that trinket, and my initial thoughts on how to use it are: Start normal opening rotation, then pop the trinket followed by the imp swarm glyph (if you're using it) & Dark Soul once you have your corruption & doom DoT's applied so that they receive the benefits of its use.  Then cast as many demonbolts as you can afford, followed by Soul Fire (provided you have MC procs) while under the effects of the haste trinket plus Dark Soul.  Using the trinket with imp swarm may shorten imp swarm's cooldown enough to squeeze an extra imp out per 2 minutes. 

 

I was avoiding using the imp swarm glyph prior to getting the trinket because I felt like it was really hurting my sustained DPS, but with the trinket it's probably a wash because you never actually get 6 imps out per 2 minutes in reality anyway; there's always a delay. 

 

I'd like to hear more feedback on this question in particular from more experienced Demo players, and add a question of my own:  For those who mainly play Demonology, which of the other two Warlock specs is the best complement to Demo to use as secondary?  In the dps charts I've seen, it looked like Affliction was doing pretty well in some of the encounters where Demo was near the bottom. 

[Twinkielock 15]

Isn't there a DPS loss with the imp swarm glyph?

[Zinthar 2]

Isn't there a DPS loss with the imp swarm glyph?

 

Over the long-run, yes (and by long-run I mean more than 1.5 mins or so).  I actually don't use it myself, opting instead for the glyph that boosts the Wrathguard's health by 20% and then combining that with the Sacrificial Pact talent for a shield that absorbs ~150k at my ilvl (634).

Edited January 8, 2015 by Zinthar

[Twinkielock 15]

I honestly don't remember the exact situation but I had a 3 or 4 stack of the demon bolt debuff, the timer had ~10 seconds and I was sitting at 950 fury.     That is the situation I wasn't sure if I should wait ~10 seconds to launch 4 of them, or to send a single massive one (and have some furry left over)

[spikeysquad 50]

Zinthar, I think that both specs have their strong points. Ultimately it's all about what your guild needs. Are you lacking overall raid DPS then consider Affliction for higher single target damage. Are you low in ranged and burst damage then Destro it is for Brackenspore/Imperator. Currently Kargarth is (or was) bugged as well on mythic and isn't recording some DoT damage on the kitties so Destro currently stronger there but on lower difficulty levels Affliction wins out on the single target. 

 

If you sent an extra DB Twinkielock then the cooldown would have reset for another 37 seconds (or whatever it is with your haste). Also if it was the case going to 5 stacks I gather is advised against because the increased damage is not worth the increased fury costs. 

 

I'm sure someone more qualified can comment but yes wasting fury is silly however you also want your Meta ready for when DB is off cooldown so this takes a little planning in advance 

Edited January 8, 2015 by spikeysquad

[Liquidsteel 279]

Burn fury on other spells whilst you wait. Simple.

[Paracel 165]

Is there a serious reason to play Demo over anything that is not Tectus?
 

[Deamux 4]

Is there a serious reason to play Demo over anything that is not Tectus?

 

 

Yea, its more fun to play on most fights than the other specs. (to me)

[spikeysquad 50]

I personally find Demo better for Kargarth as I often go to the stands but otherwise apart from what Deamux said and not having to keep respeccing through all 3 specs I cannot think of another reason. Demo has more physical damage for Ko'grah if that happens to be an issue but for my guild it has not been yet. I have the same 6/7hc progress as you Paracel and therefore not having seen the mythic fights yet I am only going by what I have read and by logs at this point in time.  

Edited January 9, 2015 by spikeysquad

[Oldtrout 7]

Didn't want to start a new thread. This was discussed here a while ago. I since kinda forgot about it / just got on with it, but have come back to the issue again. I'm wondering if I missed something that somebody found out about it which cleared the whole mess up.

 

Dark Soul giving 22.5% mastery. What's it all about? Somebody asked Celestalon at the beginning of december. He was his usual elaborate self, giving us a lot of insight and peace of mind on the subject (for the record, "30 points of mastery" is around 0.2%, not 23%). It's then discussed here and here, and I don't think any of the answers are coming from people who completely understand any of it.

 

It's not something that scales differently depending on what your current mastery stats are. I wear all my gear and I have 6% + 9.96% from items = 15.96%. I use DS and I get up to 38.46%. I take all my gear off and have just the base 6%. I use DS and I get up to 28.5%. It is always a 22.5% gain.

 

I don't understand Celestalon saying "it's a tooltip error", as if it should never have been telling us to expect 30% mastery increase. Why would they decide that Dark Soul for Demo should give 22.5% while the other 2 specs get 30% of their respective stats*? Why should the way it works be complicated beyond a flat 30% added to your current % of the stat?

 

Is it all bullshit and it's just a bug that they can't be bothered to fix? I'm not even bothered about getting my damage increased, I just think that if this is the bug that it feels like it is (and not a tooltip error / a complicated way of calculating stats that we couldn't possibly understand), that leaving it broken for so long is just another sad highlight of how much care and attention they're giving the class and the spec. Maybe 22.5% is an amount they feel is most balanced and they don't want to buff us - but a little (a lot) more clarity on the subject would make it easier to accept. Our major dps cooldown being 25% weaker than the tooltip states it should be is a pretty big issue that they should be communicating with us about.

 

*currently not specced affliction, unable to test it actually gets 30% haste after reading one of the comments in those threads saying they actually get slightly more than 30%.

Edited January 11, 2015 by Oldtrout

[Liquidsteel 279]

Affliction gets more than 30% Haste because Haste is multiplicative instead of additive. I don't know the formula, nor do I really care (I hate maths), but that's why.

 

It's why all those Haste procs in MoP became absurd with Snapshotting by the end of SoO and why Affliction became the brokenly overpowered spec that it did.

 

As for Demonology, I have no idea. How much Mastery do you get when you go into Meta? Is it perhaps based on how much rating that you actually get?

[Oldtrout 7]

The mastery % doesn't change at all when switching from caster to meta. There's no change whatsoever to the mastery rating when using either Dark Soul or Metamorphosis, just to the percentage.

 

Been trying to think of all the different ways the percentages could work together to transform a 30 into a 22.5 (the 6% caster / 12% meta from our main mastery tooltip, the extra 5% from demonic tactics) but I just don't see it. Oh, I hate maths too.

Edited January 11, 2015 by Oldtrout

[Zhoul 0]

This may have been covered already, but does anybody know of an addon or TMW string to keep track of Demonbolt cost? 

[Zagam 1,983]

This may have been covered already, but does anybody know of an addon or TMW string to keep track of Demonbolt cost? 

Google weak auras for Warlocks.  Tons of options to choose from.

[Zagam 1,983]

Affliction gets more than 30% Haste because Haste is multiplicative instead of additive. I don't know the formula, nor do I really care (I hate maths), but that's why.

Haste = Base Amount * Proc but you have to evaluate each of them as whole integers.  For example, 10% Haste needs to be valued as 1.10 and 30% Haste proc needs to be evaluated as 1.30.  Therefore, the formula is:

 

1.10 * 1.30 = 1.43, or 43% Haste.  Affliction's baseline 5% bonus to Haste should be included in the base formula - either way, it's all multiplicative but you won't see that formula as it's done behind the scenes to report your Haste in your character sheet.

[gahhda 95]

Didn't want to start a new thread. This was discussed here a while ago. I since kinda forgot about it / just got on with it, but have come back to the issue again. I'm wondering if I missed something that somebody found out about it which cleared the whole mess up.

 

Dark Soul giving 22.5% mastery. What's it all about? Somebody asked Celestalon at the beginning of december. He was his usual elaborate self, giving us a lot of insight and peace of mind on the subject (for the record, "30 points of mastery" is around 0.2%, not 23%). It's then discussed here and here, and I don't think any of the answers are coming from people who completely understand any of it.

 

It's not something that scales differently depending on what your current mastery stats are. I wear all my gear and I have 6% + 9.96% from items = 15.96%. I use DS and I get up to 38.46%. I take all my gear off and have just the base 6%. I use DS and I get up to 28.5%. It is always a 22.5% gain.

 

I don't understand Celestalon saying "it's a tooltip error", as if it should never have been telling us to expect 30% mastery increase. Why would they decide that Dark Soul for Demo should give 22.5% while the other 2 specs get 30% of their respective stats*? Why should the way it works be complicated beyond a flat 30% added to your current % of the stat?

 

Is it all bullshit and it's just a bug that they can't be bothered to fix? I'm not even bothered about getting my damage increased, I just think that if this is the bug that it feels like it is (and not a tooltip error / a complicated way of calculating stats that we couldn't possibly understand), that leaving it broken for so long is just another sad highlight of how much care and attention they're giving the class and the spec. Maybe 22.5% is an amount they feel is most balanced and they don't want to buff us - but a little (a lot) more clarity on the subject would make it easier to accept. Our major dps cooldown being 25% weaker than the tooltip states it should be is a pretty big issue that they should be communicating with us about.

 

*currently not specced affliction, unable to test it actually gets 30% haste after reading one of the comments in those threads saying they actually get slightly more than 30%.

 

Because if it gave 30% demonology would be op.

 

There isn't much point in figuring out *how* it gets to 22.5%. It's 22.5% and that's the intended amount.

Edited January 12, 2015 by gahhda

[Noveliss 1]

Question, if you have a 2min CD trinket (Copelands) do you want to cast that + DS when you Meta for the opener? Or do you still want to use it for HoG?

[Zagam 1,983]

Because if it gave 30% demonology would be op.

 

There isn't much point in figuring out *how* it gets to 22.5%. It's 22.5% and that's the intended amount.

HA - they made it 30%. 

 

Question, if you have a 2min CD trinket (Copelands) do you want to cast that + DS when you Meta for the opener? Or do you still want to use it for HoG?

You always want to stack cooldowns, especially if you're using Demonbolt.  If you're using the glyph, your Dark Soul should be macro'd with CC so that you activate it every other Dark Soul as long as you track the CD of the trinket if you're using AD.  As stated in the guide, you need to activate Dark Soul as you Meta in order to sustain the buff as you unload Demonbolts.  Using it before Meta will not buff your last Demonbolt unless you have lots of Haste.

 

Also, as a mechanical fact check, HoG ALWAYS snapshots caster Mastery and Chaos Wave ALWAYS snapshots Metamorphosis Mastery.  HoG does NOT update when you Meta, so timing HoG for buffs is much less important than making sure your Demonbolt is hitting hard.

[vaeevictiss 17]

wanting to look into demo again, is the info in the OP still accurate?