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Damien

Subtlety Rogue 6.2

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This thread is for comments about our Subtlety Rogue guide.

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Out of curiosity - why there's no mentioning of Glyph of Disappearance in the guide?

With Enhanced Vanish and this Glyph Subtlety has insane 30 sec Vanish cooldown.

This should lead to a much higher uptime of Find Weakness

 

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Out of curiosity - why there's no mentioning of Glyph of Disappearance in the guide?

With Enhanced Vanish and this Glyph Subtlety has insane 30 sec Vanish cooldown.

This should lead to a much higher uptime of Find Weakness.

Because it's an Assassination/Combat-only glyph smile.png

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Single Target Rotation:
If I benefit from Sanguinary Vein, the guide tells me to use 

Eviscerate instead of Rupture.

 

Multiple Target Rotation (2 or 3 enemies):
Due to Crimson Tempest, I benefit from Sanguinary Vein.

Now the guide tells me to use Rupture on everything. (Instead

of using Eviscerate that many times).

 

That's a contradiction. So, should I use Rupture only to maintain the

Sanguinary Vein buff or does it also do more damage than

eviscerate?

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Single Target Rotation:

If I benefit from Sanguinary Vein, the guide tells me to use 

Eviscerate instead of Rupture.

 

Multiple Target Rotation (2 or 3 enemies):

Due to Crimson Tempest, I benefit from Sanguinary Vein.

Now the guide tells me to use Rupture on everything. (Instead

of using Eviscerate that many times).

 

That's a contradiction. So, should I use Rupture only to maintain the

Sanguinary Vein buff or does it also do more damage than

eviscerate?

I've re-read these sections and it seems very clear to me. In the single-target rotation, it doesn't say to use Eviscerate instead of Rupture, simply that Rupture has a higher priority than Eviscerate and that you shouldn't use Rupture if somehow you already have Garrote or Crimson Tempest applied on the target (because in the case of the single-target rotation, what matters is that you benefit from Sanguinary Veins). In the case of the multiple-target rotation, there is no mention of Sanguinary Vein and that is because what matters here is that you apply Rupture (on the other targets) and Crimson Tempest for the damage that they do, not the Sanguinary Vein buff (which is just an added benefit in this case).

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This guide is contradictory and wrong. It says that you only apply rupture for single target dps to get the sanguinary vein buff. Why would you do that, when you  can get that buff from hemorrhage, which will be applied at all times, since it has a higher priority than backstab? 

Apart from that, blizzard says that multistrike is the prefered stat (Through the 5% bonus from Sinister Calling). This guide says that multistrike is on par with mastery as the best secondary stat too. The special thing multistrike does for rogues, is that it shortens the time that your bleeds take to do the damage, also through Sinister Calling. If this guide is correct, then getting multistrikes is actually a bad thing, because it means that you have to use your worse finisher rupture, to get the debuff up again. This makes absolutely no sense on a game design stand point.

 

I was confused by this, and have therefore checked my recount regularly, to see whether or not it can be correct that eviscerate does more damage than rupture, with the sanguinary vein buff up. As it turns out, rupture does approximately twice the damage of eviscerate, which makes rupture worth using, even without considering the sanguinary vein buff.

 

I'm wondering if this mistake originated from an assassination guide, where you only benefitted from one bleed at a time, with the venomous wounds passive. Either way, I personally can't trust this guide until that has been updated, as the rest of the guide may be just as sloppily done.

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Thanks for your reply, but it's still not completely clear to me.

I'll try to elaborate:

We agree that Sanguinary Vein ist not the issue here, because in both

cases we already benefit from it (either via Garrote or Crimson Tempest)

and thus we don't need Rupture for this purpose.

 

Now, because the debate is whether to use Rupture or Eviscerate, it doesn't

really matter if the target is the only one (Single Target) or part of a group of

enemies (Multiple Target). Both Rupture and Eviscerate only affect one target anyways.

 

The Single Target Rotation now tells me to use Eviscerate, (Rupture only to maintain

Sanguinary Vein) which means that Eviscerate does more damage than Rupture.

 

But the Multiple Target Rotation tells me to use Rupture, which means that Rupture does

more damage.

 

They can't both do more damage than the other.

I may be wrong or I may have overlooked something, but this is the issue I have with it.

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This guide is contradictory and wrong. It says that you only apply rupture for single target dps to get the sanguinary vein buff. Why would you do that, when you  can get that buff from hemorrhage, which will be applied at all times, since it has a higher priority than backstab? 

Apart from that, blizzard says that multistrike is the prefered stat (Through the 5% bonus from Sinister Calling). This guide says that multistrike is on par with mastery as the best secondary stat too. The special thing multistrike does for rogues, is that it shortens the time that your bleeds take to do the damage, also through Sinister Calling. If this guide is correct, then getting multistrikes is actually a bad thing, because it means that you have to use your worse finisher rupture, to get the debuff up again. This makes absolutely no sense on a game design stand point.

 

I was confused by this, and have therefore checked my recount regularly, to see whether or not it can be correct that eviscerate does more damage than rupture, with the sanguinary vein buff up. As it turns out, rupture does approximately twice the damage of eviscerate, which makes rupture worth using, even without considering the sanguinary vein buff.

 

I'm wondering if this mistake originated from an assassination guide, where you only benefitted from one bleed at a time, with the venomous wounds passive. Either way, I personally can't trust this guide until that has been updated, as the rest of the guide may be just as sloppily done.

  

Thanks for your reply, but it's still not completely clear to me.

I'll try to elaborate:

We agree that Sanguinary Vein ist not the issue here, because in both

cases we already benefit from it (either via Garrote or Crimson Tempest)

and thus we don't need Rupture for this purpose.

 

Now, because the debate is whether to use Rupture or Eviscerate, it doesn't

really matter if the target is the only one (Single Target) or part of a group of

enemies (Multiple Target). Both Rupture and Eviscerate only affect one target anyways.

 

The Single Target Rotation now tells me to use Eviscerate, (Rupture only to maintain

Sanguinary Vein) which means that Eviscerate does more damage than Rupture.

 

But the Multiple Target Rotation tells me to use Rupture, which means that Rupture does

more damage.

 

They can't both do more damage than the other.

I may be wrong or I may have overlooked something, but this is the issue I have with it.

I'll consult with our reviewers on the matter then and I'll get back to you guys.

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I didn't have Fiery available, but I talked to Spazzo from Blood Legion and made a few fixes regarding Sanguinary Vein and Rupture. Hopefully, it's clearer and more correct now. And to be clear, what was previously written in the guide may not have been optimal, but it may only have resulted in like 0.1% less DPS.

The question on stats is that Multistrike and Mastery are always very close. This is what comes out of both SimC and Shadowcraft.

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I have a question. Sublety rogue doesn't require you to have a dagger off-hand. In my case i have a choice between a 615 dagger or a 645 mace, and currently i'm using my mace as off-hand and doing alot more damage than i did with my dagger. Can you in the guide somehow explain the off-hand choices here or am i basically wrong about it and my choice is completely wrong?

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I have a question. Sublety rogue doesn't require you to have a dagger off-hand. In my case i have a choice between a 615 dagger or a 645 mace, and currently i'm using my mace as off-hand and doing alot more damage than i did with my dagger. Can you in the guide somehow explain the off-hand choices here or am i basically wrong about it and my choice is completely wrong?

 

Backstab requires you to have 2 daggers.

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Backstab requires you to have 2 daggers.

 

Mutilate requires you to have two daggers, you can backstab with just one as long as it is in your main hand. 

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Mutilate requires you to have two daggers, you can backstab with just one as long as it is in your main hand.

I just tested and you are correct. The tooltip for Backstab says "Requires Daggers". Go figure tongue.png

Anyway, I did some tests and you should use the spare weapon you have available with the highest item level in your Off-hand slot. I updated the guide to reflect that.

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Assuming that Backstab requires a Main-Hand Dagger, than the sentence "Finally, there is no reason for you to stick with a Dagger in your Main-Hand slot, as you cannot use Backstab." is incorrect. This is found in section 5.9 of Rotation, Cooldowns, and Abilities.

 

I propose revising that to be:

"Finally, there is no reason for you to stick with a Dagger in your Off-Hand slot, as only the Main-Hand slot requires a Dagger to use Backstab."

 

You could add something about the Off-Hand slot simply being your next highest item level weapon regardless if its a Dagger or otherwise.

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I know in the past we've used faster off hand weapons because it leads to more poison applications. Does that still apply with the way poisons don't go to specific weapons?

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Simple question about stat priority for sub rogue:

( on the second priority) Multistrike = Mastery: I understand the equality, but is it a choice of which one you would prefer, or does the priority go, choose one from Multistrike or Mastery and the latter decision will be your next stat priority?  Same question regarding Critical Strike = Versatility.  Is it just a choice of choose one and disregard or the other, or what I have previously stated?

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Might want to change trade_alchemy_potiond6.jpgVirmen's Bite to trade_alchemy_dpotion_a27.jpgDraenic Agility Potion

Thanks, I changed it shortly after your comment, because Spazzo mentioned it in his review.

 

 

Assuming that Backstab requires a Main-Hand Dagger, than the sentence "Finally, there is no reason for you to stick with a Dagger in your Main-Hand slot, as you cannot use Backstab." is incorrect. This is found in section 5.9 of Rotation, Cooldowns, and Abilities.

 

I propose revising that to be:

"Finally, there is no reason for you to stick with a Dagger in your Off-Hand slot, as only the Main-Hand slot requires a Dagger to use Backstab."

 

You could add something about the Off-Hand slot simply being your next highest item level weapon regardless if its a Dagger or otherwise.

I think my explanations are correct as they are.

 

I know in the past we've used faster off hand weapons because it leads to more poison applications. Does that still apply with the way poisons don't go to specific weapons?

 

This no longer applies, see: http://www.icy-veins.local/wow/subtlety-rogue-pve-dps-gear-loot-best-in-slot#sec-2

 

Simple question about stat priority for sub rogue:

( on the second priority) Multistrike = Mastery: I understand the equality, but is it a choice of which one you would prefer, or does the priority go, choose one from Multistrike or Mastery and the latter decision will be your next stat priority?  Same question regarding Critical Strike = Versatility.  Is it just a choice of choose one and disregard or the other, or what I have previously stated?

It's the former. Consider both stats to have equal values and keep them balanced (so 500 Multistrike and 1500 Mastery is not advised).

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Hello,

I figured rather than telling rogues that Icy-veins is not a good place to go for information about optimizing your sub rogue play. I'd figure I'll help improving it instead.

Here's some stuff I want revised or at least looked at.

My sources are ShC, SimC, #Ravenholdt, Personal experiance as a average of 97th percentile sub on warcraft logs.

 

Tier 1 talents.

1) It is stated that Shadow Focus is 2% more overall damage. This is outright false, and it falls even more behind when you couple Subterfuge with the Vanish glyph. Subterfuge should be the winner.

2) It is stated that the main reason to be Sub is burst damage. While this might be a reason, Sub has the most single target DPS overall and should thus be the main reason to spec it.

 

Tier 2 talents.

1) Minor. But Deadly throw allows you to interupt if you mess up a kick. While Combat Readiness does not really do anything that evasion cannot.

 

Tier 6 talents.

1) It might be worth mentioning that on AoE with 5 or more targets that do not die quickly, Anticipation will net more combo points than Marked for Death. Marked for death is better on lower hp "add fights" where you swap, such as adds on Brackenspore. But not on fights such as Tectus if you kill both shards at the same time, due to Crimson Tempest mechanics.

 

Tier 7 talents.

1) Death from above is not similar value to SR. It's almost 7% dps decrease on ST according to ShC. Matter of fact, Venom rush is higher DPS on single target. However; what you stated about several targets is correct.

 

Major Glyphs

1) With Subterfuge, glyph of Vanish is our highest DPS boost for a glyph. This is not even mentioned. Accompanied to this, you should also explain how it changes your rotation.

2) Glyph of Hemorrhaging vains is not always a DPS gain if you opt for the Garrote -> SR/SD opener (which you should).

 

That brings us to -

ST Rotation

1) "Reapply Hemorrhage after the bleed effect ends." Due to pandemic mechanics, you should do it as early as posible under the 40% of the original debuff time to ensure you do not waste any uptime due to multistrike BS's.

 

MT Rotation

1) Mention Slice and Dice!!!

2) You should finish with CT even on 2 targets. Not evis, unless FW is up.

3) Maybe make it clearer that you want to CT before you start rupture due to SV.

 

Poisons

1) Sometimes Crippling is more harm than good. If adds needs to be move quickly.

 

Cooldowns

1) Shadow dance lasts for 10 seconds. Not 8.

2) You say use vanish on CD. But you should not use it if FW is up (unless you messed up and have a lot of energy at the end of FW, then you can vanish/ambush when there ~0.2 sec left) Or if you're running the suboptimal Shadow Focus, this also applies. However, if you're running Shadow Focus, you might want to wait for Premed anyways.

 

Find Weakness (or maybe on glyph of Vanish text)

1) Mention that if you time your vanish so that your autoattack lands just before the first Subterfuge ends, and then you stop spamming abilities. Then the second subterfuge will be delayed until your first attack lands. And thus netting you another 1 seconds of Master of Sublety as well as Find weakness per vanish.

 

Opener

1) Garrote -> Trinket/SR -> Rupture -> Dance is superiour to your opener.

2) Even with Subterfuge, you want to use the above opener! Else your SR wont have your trinket procs when it starts doing damage!

 

Basics

1) Have never with any gear set up seen Mastery close to Multistrike.

2) However Mastery can be close to crit at some gear combinations.

3) Same with Versatility.

 

Enchants

1) At almost all gear levels we can currently acquire, going 1x Mark of the Shattered Hand and 1x Mark of the Frostwolf is prefered.

2) I have no clue why the Mastery enchant was mentioned here.

 

BiS

1) Pretty certain Captive Micro-Aberration outperforms coin at all levels. Needs to be checked though.

 

Weapon Choice

1) Maybe add an honorable mention that the Axe Phemo's Double Slasher is BiS offhand due to its stats.

 

Loot competition

Combat rogues really never wants a dagger in offhand. They do however want a dagger in Main hand while they are using Bladeflurry.

 

Hopefully some of these will be taken into consideration.

 

//Rosvall

 

 

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Hello,

Why do you use shadow reflection before Rupture ?

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Hello,

Why do you use shadow reflection before Rupture ?

 

Hey,

 

Rupture has a higher damage per cast (quite so) compared to Eviscerate. Thus it is intuatative that you would want your Shadow Reflection to cast Rupture instead of an Eviscerate.

 

While the ingame UI does not pick up that your Shadow Reflection's Rupture keeps ticking after it dies, the logs shows that it does indeed keep ticking for the full amount of time.

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I dont know at which point using fan of knives for extra combo points over backstab is beneficial, but it certainly isn't for 2 targets. SInister calling procs off backstab and ambush multistrikes; if you switch out backstab for an extra combo point on 2 target fights, you completely lose sinister calling's procs outside your ambushes. I've tested this extensively on brackenspore and twin ogrons, and pulls where i kept with the regular single target rotation but applying rupture+crimson tempest on the second target yielded much better results than FoKing.

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I've done a number of updates to the guide, following Rosvall's feedback. Thanks smile.png

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Doing SR before Rupture puts a cloned version of it on the target, which run for its whole duration.

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      --Talent balancing. In particular, Evangelism is an idea we like, but finding serious competition for it as a raid talent might be hard. It probably needs to be against heavier hitters like Power Infusion (especially if that helps it be less of a one-note cooldown stacking build). There will likely be further iteration on talent arrangement to better accommodate the new additions.

      --Mana. The spell whose cost is most important for balance purposes is Plea, because it is now the most efficient way to convert excess mana into Atonements. We reduced the cost so it would make more sense when compared against Shadow Mend and Radiance, but have to keep an eye on whether that leaves mana as a reasonable limiter on how much Atonement you can spread over the course of an encounter.

      --Overall Atonement count. The changes in the last build helped fix a lot of mechanical issues, but also added a lot of raw power to the spec, particularly in terms of Atonement spread/uptime. And particularly Evangelism returns a lot of the burst-Atonement coverage that currently dominates Disc raiding. That's not necessarily a problem if everything else about the spec is working well, and it's good to continue having a bit of a niche that Disc is used to in Legion. But as discussed in my first post, if it's as easy to blanket the raid as it is on live, that limits the spec somewhat. 

      While this is something we'll monitor throughout PTR, especially with more internal and external raid testing, there is definitely a worry that in order to balance the spec at this point, the Atonement transfer % would have to go down, which is the opposite of the stated goal. We don't want to be in that position at the end of PTR when it's harder to make other changes.