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Subtlety Rogue 6.2

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Guest Vitinary

Out of curiosity - why there's no mentioning of Glyph of Disappearance in the guide?

With Enhanced Vanish and this Glyph Subtlety has insane 30 sec Vanish cooldown.

This should lead to a much higher uptime of Find Weakness

 

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Out of curiosity - why there's no mentioning of Glyph of Disappearance in the guide?

With Enhanced Vanish and this Glyph Subtlety has insane 30 sec Vanish cooldown.

This should lead to a much higher uptime of Find Weakness.

Because it's an Assassination/Combat-only glyph smile.png

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Guest Gyphon

Single Target Rotation:
If I benefit from Sanguinary Vein, the guide tells me to use 

Eviscerate instead of Rupture.

 

Multiple Target Rotation (2 or 3 enemies):
Due to Crimson Tempest, I benefit from Sanguinary Vein.

Now the guide tells me to use Rupture on everything. (Instead

of using Eviscerate that many times).

 

That's a contradiction. So, should I use Rupture only to maintain the

Sanguinary Vein buff or does it also do more damage than

eviscerate?

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Single Target Rotation:

If I benefit from Sanguinary Vein, the guide tells me to use 

Eviscerate instead of Rupture.

 

Multiple Target Rotation (2 or 3 enemies):

Due to Crimson Tempest, I benefit from Sanguinary Vein.

Now the guide tells me to use Rupture on everything. (Instead

of using Eviscerate that many times).

 

That's a contradiction. So, should I use Rupture only to maintain the

Sanguinary Vein buff or does it also do more damage than

eviscerate?

I've re-read these sections and it seems very clear to me. In the single-target rotation, it doesn't say to use Eviscerate instead of Rupture, simply that Rupture has a higher priority than Eviscerate and that you shouldn't use Rupture if somehow you already have Garrote or Crimson Tempest applied on the target (because in the case of the single-target rotation, what matters is that you benefit from Sanguinary Veins). In the case of the multiple-target rotation, there is no mention of Sanguinary Vein and that is because what matters here is that you apply Rupture (on the other targets) and Crimson Tempest for the damage that they do, not the Sanguinary Vein buff (which is just an added benefit in this case).

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Guest Astrinaar

This guide is contradictory and wrong. It says that you only apply rupture for single target dps to get the sanguinary vein buff. Why would you do that, when you  can get that buff from hemorrhage, which will be applied at all times, since it has a higher priority than backstab? 

Apart from that, blizzard says that multistrike is the prefered stat (Through the 5% bonus from Sinister Calling). This guide says that multistrike is on par with mastery as the best secondary stat too. The special thing multistrike does for rogues, is that it shortens the time that your bleeds take to do the damage, also through Sinister Calling. If this guide is correct, then getting multistrikes is actually a bad thing, because it means that you have to use your worse finisher rupture, to get the debuff up again. This makes absolutely no sense on a game design stand point.

 

I was confused by this, and have therefore checked my recount regularly, to see whether or not it can be correct that eviscerate does more damage than rupture, with the sanguinary vein buff up. As it turns out, rupture does approximately twice the damage of eviscerate, which makes rupture worth using, even without considering the sanguinary vein buff.

 

I'm wondering if this mistake originated from an assassination guide, where you only benefitted from one bleed at a time, with the venomous wounds passive. Either way, I personally can't trust this guide until that has been updated, as the rest of the guide may be just as sloppily done.

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Guest Gyphon

Thanks for your reply, but it's still not completely clear to me.

I'll try to elaborate:

We agree that Sanguinary Vein ist not the issue here, because in both

cases we already benefit from it (either via Garrote or Crimson Tempest)

and thus we don't need Rupture for this purpose.

 

Now, because the debate is whether to use Rupture or Eviscerate, it doesn't

really matter if the target is the only one (Single Target) or part of a group of

enemies (Multiple Target). Both Rupture and Eviscerate only affect one target anyways.

 

The Single Target Rotation now tells me to use Eviscerate, (Rupture only to maintain

Sanguinary Vein) which means that Eviscerate does more damage than Rupture.

 

But the Multiple Target Rotation tells me to use Rupture, which means that Rupture does

more damage.

 

They can't both do more damage than the other.

I may be wrong or I may have overlooked something, but this is the issue I have with it.

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This guide is contradictory and wrong. It says that you only apply rupture for single target dps to get the sanguinary vein buff. Why would you do that, when you  can get that buff from hemorrhage, which will be applied at all times, since it has a higher priority than backstab? 

Apart from that, blizzard says that multistrike is the prefered stat (Through the 5% bonus from Sinister Calling). This guide says that multistrike is on par with mastery as the best secondary stat too. The special thing multistrike does for rogues, is that it shortens the time that your bleeds take to do the damage, also through Sinister Calling. If this guide is correct, then getting multistrikes is actually a bad thing, because it means that you have to use your worse finisher rupture, to get the debuff up again. This makes absolutely no sense on a game design stand point.

 

I was confused by this, and have therefore checked my recount regularly, to see whether or not it can be correct that eviscerate does more damage than rupture, with the sanguinary vein buff up. As it turns out, rupture does approximately twice the damage of eviscerate, which makes rupture worth using, even without considering the sanguinary vein buff.

 

I'm wondering if this mistake originated from an assassination guide, where you only benefitted from one bleed at a time, with the venomous wounds passive. Either way, I personally can't trust this guide until that has been updated, as the rest of the guide may be just as sloppily done.

  

Thanks for your reply, but it's still not completely clear to me.

I'll try to elaborate:

We agree that Sanguinary Vein ist not the issue here, because in both

cases we already benefit from it (either via Garrote or Crimson Tempest)

and thus we don't need Rupture for this purpose.

 

Now, because the debate is whether to use Rupture or Eviscerate, it doesn't

really matter if the target is the only one (Single Target) or part of a group of

enemies (Multiple Target). Both Rupture and Eviscerate only affect one target anyways.

 

The Single Target Rotation now tells me to use Eviscerate, (Rupture only to maintain

Sanguinary Vein) which means that Eviscerate does more damage than Rupture.

 

But the Multiple Target Rotation tells me to use Rupture, which means that Rupture does

more damage.

 

They can't both do more damage than the other.

I may be wrong or I may have overlooked something, but this is the issue I have with it.

I'll consult with our reviewers on the matter then and I'll get back to you guys.

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I didn't have Fiery available, but I talked to Spazzo from Blood Legion and made a few fixes regarding Sanguinary Vein and Rupture. Hopefully, it's clearer and more correct now. And to be clear, what was previously written in the guide may not have been optimal, but it may only have resulted in like 0.1% less DPS.

The question on stats is that Multistrike and Mastery are always very close. This is what comes out of both SimC and Shadowcraft.

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Guest Baconhawk

I have a question. Sublety rogue doesn't require you to have a dagger off-hand. In my case i have a choice between a 615 dagger or a 645 mace, and currently i'm using my mace as off-hand and doing alot more damage than i did with my dagger. Can you in the guide somehow explain the off-hand choices here or am i basically wrong about it and my choice is completely wrong?

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I have a question. Sublety rogue doesn't require you to have a dagger off-hand. In my case i have a choice between a 615 dagger or a 645 mace, and currently i'm using my mace as off-hand and doing alot more damage than i did with my dagger. Can you in the guide somehow explain the off-hand choices here or am i basically wrong about it and my choice is completely wrong?

 

Backstab requires you to have 2 daggers.

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Guest Flimpit

Backstab requires you to have 2 daggers.

 

Mutilate requires you to have two daggers, you can backstab with just one as long as it is in your main hand. 

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Mutilate requires you to have two daggers, you can backstab with just one as long as it is in your main hand.

I just tested and you are correct. The tooltip for Backstab says "Requires Daggers". Go figure tongue.png

Anyway, I did some tests and you should use the spare weapon you have available with the highest item level in your Off-hand slot. I updated the guide to reflect that.

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Guest Cazz0r

Assuming that Backstab requires a Main-Hand Dagger, than the sentence "Finally, there is no reason for you to stick with a Dagger in your Main-Hand slot, as you cannot use Backstab." is incorrect. This is found in section 5.9 of Rotation, Cooldowns, and Abilities.

 

I propose revising that to be:

"Finally, there is no reason for you to stick with a Dagger in your Off-Hand slot, as only the Main-Hand slot requires a Dagger to use Backstab."

 

You could add something about the Off-Hand slot simply being your next highest item level weapon regardless if its a Dagger or otherwise.

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Guest NoFuneral

I know in the past we've used faster off hand weapons because it leads to more poison applications. Does that still apply with the way poisons don't go to specific weapons?

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Guest Tripix

Simple question about stat priority for sub rogue:

( on the second priority) Multistrike = Mastery: I understand the equality, but is it a choice of which one you would prefer, or does the priority go, choose one from Multistrike or Mastery and the latter decision will be your next stat priority?  Same question regarding Critical Strike = Versatility.  Is it just a choice of choose one and disregard or the other, or what I have previously stated?

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Might want to change trade_alchemy_potiond6.jpgVirmen's Bite to trade_alchemy_dpotion_a27.jpgDraenic Agility Potion

Thanks, I changed it shortly after your comment, because Spazzo mentioned it in his review.

 

 

Assuming that Backstab requires a Main-Hand Dagger, than the sentence "Finally, there is no reason for you to stick with a Dagger in your Main-Hand slot, as you cannot use Backstab." is incorrect. This is found in section 5.9 of Rotation, Cooldowns, and Abilities.

 

I propose revising that to be:

"Finally, there is no reason for you to stick with a Dagger in your Off-Hand slot, as only the Main-Hand slot requires a Dagger to use Backstab."

 

You could add something about the Off-Hand slot simply being your next highest item level weapon regardless if its a Dagger or otherwise.

I think my explanations are correct as they are.

 

I know in the past we've used faster off hand weapons because it leads to more poison applications. Does that still apply with the way poisons don't go to specific weapons?

 

This no longer applies, see: http://www.icy-veins.local/wow/subtlety-rogue-pve-dps-gear-loot-best-in-slot#sec-2

 

Simple question about stat priority for sub rogue:

( on the second priority) Multistrike = Mastery: I understand the equality, but is it a choice of which one you would prefer, or does the priority go, choose one from Multistrike or Mastery and the latter decision will be your next stat priority?  Same question regarding Critical Strike = Versatility.  Is it just a choice of choose one and disregard or the other, or what I have previously stated?

It's the former. Consider both stats to have equal values and keep them balanced (so 500 Multistrike and 1500 Mastery is not advised).

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Guest Rosvall

Hello,

I figured rather than telling rogues that Icy-veins is not a good place to go for information about optimizing your sub rogue play. I'd figure I'll help improving it instead.

Here's some stuff I want revised or at least looked at.

My sources are ShC, SimC, #Ravenholdt, Personal experiance as a average of 97th percentile sub on warcraft logs.

 

Tier 1 talents.

1) It is stated that Shadow Focus is 2% more overall damage. This is outright false, and it falls even more behind when you couple Subterfuge with the Vanish glyph. Subterfuge should be the winner.

2) It is stated that the main reason to be Sub is burst damage. While this might be a reason, Sub has the most single target DPS overall and should thus be the main reason to spec it.

 

Tier 2 talents.

1) Minor. But Deadly throw allows you to interupt if you mess up a kick. While Combat Readiness does not really do anything that evasion cannot.

 

Tier 6 talents.

1) It might be worth mentioning that on AoE with 5 or more targets that do not die quickly, Anticipation will net more combo points than Marked for Death. Marked for death is better on lower hp "add fights" where you swap, such as adds on Brackenspore. But not on fights such as Tectus if you kill both shards at the same time, due to Crimson Tempest mechanics.

 

Tier 7 talents.

1) Death from above is not similar value to SR. It's almost 7% dps decrease on ST according to ShC. Matter of fact, Venom rush is higher DPS on single target. However; what you stated about several targets is correct.

 

Major Glyphs

1) With Subterfuge, glyph of Vanish is our highest DPS boost for a glyph. This is not even mentioned. Accompanied to this, you should also explain how it changes your rotation.

2) Glyph of Hemorrhaging vains is not always a DPS gain if you opt for the Garrote -> SR/SD opener (which you should).

 

That brings us to -

ST Rotation

1) "Reapply Hemorrhage after the bleed effect ends." Due to pandemic mechanics, you should do it as early as posible under the 40% of the original debuff time to ensure you do not waste any uptime due to multistrike BS's.

 

MT Rotation

1) Mention Slice and Dice!!!

2) You should finish with CT even on 2 targets. Not evis, unless FW is up.

3) Maybe make it clearer that you want to CT before you start rupture due to SV.

 

Poisons

1) Sometimes Crippling is more harm than good. If adds needs to be move quickly.

 

Cooldowns

1) Shadow dance lasts for 10 seconds. Not 8.

2) You say use vanish on CD. But you should not use it if FW is up (unless you messed up and have a lot of energy at the end of FW, then you can vanish/ambush when there ~0.2 sec left) Or if you're running the suboptimal Shadow Focus, this also applies. However, if you're running Shadow Focus, you might want to wait for Premed anyways.

 

Find Weakness (or maybe on glyph of Vanish text)

1) Mention that if you time your vanish so that your autoattack lands just before the first Subterfuge ends, and then you stop spamming abilities. Then the second subterfuge will be delayed until your first attack lands. And thus netting you another 1 seconds of Master of Sublety as well as Find weakness per vanish.

 

Opener

1) Garrote -> Trinket/SR -> Rupture -> Dance is superiour to your opener.

2) Even with Subterfuge, you want to use the above opener! Else your SR wont have your trinket procs when it starts doing damage!

 

Basics

1) Have never with any gear set up seen Mastery close to Multistrike.

2) However Mastery can be close to crit at some gear combinations.

3) Same with Versatility.

 

Enchants

1) At almost all gear levels we can currently acquire, going 1x Mark of the Shattered Hand and 1x Mark of the Frostwolf is prefered.

2) I have no clue why the Mastery enchant was mentioned here.

 

BiS

1) Pretty certain Captive Micro-Aberration outperforms coin at all levels. Needs to be checked though.

 

Weapon Choice

1) Maybe add an honorable mention that the Axe Phemo's Double Slasher is BiS offhand due to its stats.

 

Loot competition

Combat rogues really never wants a dagger in offhand. They do however want a dagger in Main hand while they are using Bladeflurry.

 

Hopefully some of these will be taken into consideration.

 

//Rosvall

 

 

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Guest Rosvall

Hello,

Why do you use shadow reflection before Rupture ?

 

Hey,

 

Rupture has a higher damage per cast (quite so) compared to Eviscerate. Thus it is intuatative that you would want your Shadow Reflection to cast Rupture instead of an Eviscerate.

 

While the ingame UI does not pick up that your Shadow Reflection's Rupture keeps ticking after it dies, the logs shows that it does indeed keep ticking for the full amount of time.

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Guest Oppai

I dont know at which point using fan of knives for extra combo points over backstab is beneficial, but it certainly isn't for 2 targets. SInister calling procs off backstab and ambush multistrikes; if you switch out backstab for an extra combo point on 2 target fights, you completely lose sinister calling's procs outside your ambushes. I've tested this extensively on brackenspore and twin ogrons, and pulls where i kept with the regular single target rotation but applying rupture+crimson tempest on the second target yielded much better results than FoKing.

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I've done a number of updates to the guide, following Rosvall's feedback. Thanks smile.png

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Guest Specious

Doing SR before Rupture puts a cloned version of it on the target, which run for its whole duration.

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      Rikki - 1 Month Game Time – 2 Months Explorer’s Dunetrekker – 3 Months Title: Renowned Explorer – 4 Months Game Time – 5 Months Enchant: Stinging Sands – 6 Months Renowned Explorer’s Tabard – 7 Months Game Time – 8 Months Explorer’s Jungle Hopper – 9 Months Renowned Explorer’s Rucksack – 10 Months Game Time – 11 Months Renowned Explorer’s Attire – 12 Months Rewards shown from left to right: Renowned Explorer’s full set as shown (Attire, Tabard, and Rucksack), Rikki, Renowned Explorer’s Jungle Hopper, and Explorer’s Dunetrekker. Not pictured – Enchant: Stinging Sands. Rikki—This curious monkey is ready to see the world at your side. Explorer’s Dunetrekker—Traverse deserts, jungles, tundra, and beyond on this two-seater mount. Renowned Explorer Title—Distinguish yourself with a unique title. Enchant: Stinging Sands—Enhance the appearance of your weapons with swirling sands. Renowned Explorer’s Tabard—Don this rugged tabard to show off your adventurous streak. Explorer’s Jungle Hopper—Soar through Azeroth’s skies on this mount for two. Renowned Explorer’s Rucksack—Always be prepared for adventure with this bustling backpack. Renowned Explorer’s Attire—Look the part of a grizzled outdoorsperson with this rugged appearance. Game Time
      Every 3 months after your 12-month reward, you’ll get a game time reward.
      Hover or tap on the image above to see the Renowned Explorer’s Tabard and the Renowned Explorer’s Tabard Rucksack isolated from the Renowned Explorer's Attire. Go it Together
      Time flies when you’re having fun, and it goes even faster when you and your recruits play together. Conquer Azeroth alongside your friends and you’ll both receive a 50% bonus to experience for faster leveling when partied together. You can also summon each other once every 30 minutes. Furthermore, our new Party Sync feature makes it easier than ever to level with friends. When activated, everyone in the party becomes aligned to the same quest state and phase. You’ll also have access to a “replay quest” feature that allows players who’ve already completed certain quests to replay them with their friends for rewards that are appropriate to their current level, regardless of the quest’s original level. Quests can be replayed for rewards once per day.
      If you’d prefer to play with your friend using a current character rather than starting a new one, you now can. By using Party Sync, you can choose to have your level adjusted so you can quest and experience outdoor content with your friends as they level up. And, If you want to queue for instanced content (such as Battlegrounds and dungeons) in their level range, you can choose to join them by having your level scaled down.
      Lead with Confidence
      To help you help your friends, we’ve created a brand-new RAF panel in-game to help you know when to expect your next reward and given your access to Party Sync. The RAF panel also lists special activities available to players who participate in the program. Complete these in-game challenges with your recruits to earn even more rewards.
      Start Your Journey
      The new Recruit A Friend lets you generate a custom link in-game that you can send to your friends. This link will help you and your recruit connect in-game, and you’ll be able to see if they’ve purchased game time, which will lead to rewards for you! For each month your recruits have active game time, you’ll earn a new reward, such as unique pets, mounts, game time, and more. These rewards unlock each month and scale with the amount of time your recruits have subscribed for. And, of course, with Party Sync, you’ll be able to journey with your friends on any of your characters.
      Adventure Awaits
      Recruit A Friend returns to World of Warcraft in the next few months. When you’re ready to bring your friends to Azeroth, simply log in to WoW and generate an invite link through the Recruit A Friend interface, then send that link to your friends. Up to four friends can use it to link their accounts to yours. To recruit more friends, you’ll need to generate a new link, which you can do once every 30 days.
      *In-game rewards are available to use in World of Warcraft, but not in World of Warcraft® Classic. Free game time earned through Recruit A Friend provides access to both World of Warcraft and WoW Classic.
    • By Starym
      Here come today's BfA hotfixes, featuring the already announced raid nerfs (and the Palce opening to cross-realm groups on Mythic), with lady Ashvane and Queen Azshara getting significantly easier, mostly on Mythic. We also get a change to how the Battle of Nazjatar works, as it is no longer on a fixed delay, and we get some Mechagon quest and world changes as well.
      October 22 (source)
      Dungeons and Raids
      Azshara’s Eternal Palace The Eternal Palace is now available for cross-realm groups on Mythic difficulty. Lady Ashvane Lady Ashvane’s health reduced by 5% in Mythic difficulty. Rippling Wave damage reduced by 10% in Mythic difficulty. Waterlogged periodic damage reduced by 10% in Mythic difficulty. Queen Azshara The "Stand Together!" and "Stay!" decree combination is no longer possible in Heroic difficulty. Overzealous Hulk and Tidemistress health reduced by 10% in Mythic difficulty. Draining Azshara’s Ancient Ward now reduces its energy by an additional 5 points in all difficulties. Empowering a Ward of Power now increases its energy by an additional 5 points in all difficulties. Healer-specialization characters are now less likely to be targeted with decree combinations that include “March!” in all difficulties. Short Circuit now drains 10% less energy from the affected Ward in all difficulties. Essence of Azeroth now has an increased duration if there are fewer than 20 players in the raid in Normal and Heroic difficulties, and lasts 30 seconds (was 25 seconds) in Mythic difficulty. Developers’ note: These changes were made to smooth out the difficulty curve of the instance as we transition into the next raid tier, something we often do after all Mythic Raid Hall of Fame slots have been earned. Player versus Player
      The start time for the Battle of Nazjatar is no longer fixed to a 3-hour interval. The delay between events now has random variance. Developers’ note: As players have learned the timing of the event over the course of Rise of Azshara, increasingly the perceived optimal way to participate is to camp the control points in advance of the start time. By adding some variance (which still averages out to a 3-hour interval), we hope to make the Battle for Nazjatar more dynamic without reducing the overall frequency of the event. Quests
      "Energy Cells for Everyone " now resets daily (was weekly) and will be automatically removed from players’ quest logs with the daily reset. World
      The Charging Station construction project in Mechagon now appears significantly faster after the Charging Station is destroyed.
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