lipsinch

Find Weakness uptime and performance

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Hello guys!

 

As we started this raiding season, I've done my debut yesterday. Not sure of how many of you are raiding as Sub, but I have a question about FW: what's the estimated uptime of it? Given we don't have AoC cooldown decrease and 4pc from T16, we're supposed to expect a substantial loss of uptime, but by how much? Past patch Sub seemed to keep holding up to nearly ~80%, if I'm not mistaken.

 

It's my first time raiding as Sub, so I still have to pick up on some things, such as Vanish Prep - my uptime on FW was really low (~25% -feels ashamed-), but I was learning the mechanics AND raid calling (got forcefully assigned to it, since I was teh only one who read the fights beforehand... -.-), so I couldn't pay really attention fully to what I was doing. Glad I remembered logging to check it out later and be aware of it.

 

Also, I've run with Subterfuge and Shadow Focus, and IMHO Subterfuge seems to yield a better DPS than SF. Perhaps I was playing wrong with SF, I dunno.

 

I've logged 4 fails tries we had yesterday, link.

 

[brag]

And with iLvl 617 (I know, that needs a better iLvl to be done so, but still), I was in the 5 top (low) DPS almost all time, if not, was off by a really small margin - either my group wasn't well geared or wasn't that good, because wtf, I can't see where Rogues are weak this expac.

[/brag] biggrin.png

 

Anyone can give me a insight on those (and at anything else if these anythings jumps at your eyes)?

 

Thanks!

 

Edit: WoL link.

Edited by lipsinch

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I've recently taken a closer look at my rotation, so hopefully, I have some things that will help you.

 

Thanks for posting logs, that's extremely helpful.  Apologies if my references to your logs are estimates, the site seems to be acting up since I looked a few minutes ago.

 

A couple of things to focus on (in no particular order):

 

1.  Slice and Dice uptime:  In your longest attempt, I saw somewhere around 75% uptime.  This is the easiest one to fix, because you don't even need to be on the boss to increase this.  Make a point to refresh this anytime it fits in your rotation after SnD has fallen below 10s.  This should be ~97-99% uptime.

 

2. Rupture uptime: This is another one that should be easy to shore up.  There will be times it will drop off, but this is key to keeping your numbers up, if only for the Sang. Veins mechanic.  It also doesn't hurt that this will be ticking away when you have to be away from the boss during things like Chain Hurl if you aren't going up, etc.  Longest attempt has you at 75%, you should be shooting for 90-95%+.

 

3: Hemo uptime:  This is the gap filler for when rupture might fall off, to ensure that you are still getting that Sang Veins buff. Same attempt: 75%, shoot for 95%+

 

4: Find Weakness uptime:  This one is a bit harder to change your habits.  As far as I've seen 80% would be extremely difficult to manage (didn't raid as Sub in MoP), but I would set a goal of around 50% uptime.  Anywhere 40% plus would be solid, imo.

 

Looking at your logs, it seems you used an appropriate amount of ShDances, 6 in a 7 min pull, but I only see 3 vanishes.  With the Sub perk, you should have a CD of 1m30s on vanish.  Couple that with prep, and napkin math would say, if you prep right after the first one, somewhere around 6 or 7 vanishes for that fight.

 

The value of SF over Subterfuge is not on the opener, but in the middle of the fight...  You can be sure that you won't waste any time sitting in Vanish(stealth) waiting for energy, and you can be sure to time it right when a FW is about to fall off from ShD.  It also saves you a huge amount of energy over the course of a fight, and allows more backstabs/evis during FW uptime.

 

A good rotation that works for me re: FW uptime:  Pre-pot, stealth, SnD before pull if CP allows, ShS, Ambush, Hemo, Rupture, Begin ShD... as FW is falling off from last Ambush, right before it finishes, vanish/Ambush, then prep ASAP (so you can hopefully get 2 preps in each attempt)... After that FW is about to fall off, do the same Vanish/Ambush, to maintain it.  Then ShD on CD, and Vanish when you can in the gaps as much as possible.  

 

Obviously maintaining ALL the other things you have going... easy right? :D  It's a complicated rotation, and I adore it.  Gear will help with numbers, and make some things easier, but getting down that rhythm is key, so get to those combat dummies!

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I've recently taken a closer look at my rotation, so hopefully, I have some things that will help you.

 

Thanks for posting logs, that's extremely helpful.  Apologies if my references to your logs are estimates, the site seems to be acting up since I looked a few minutes ago.

 

A couple of things to focus on (in no particular order):

 

1.  Slice and Dice uptime:  In your longest attempt, I saw somewhere around 75% uptime.  This is the easiest one to fix, because you don't even need to be on the boss to increase this.  Make a point to refresh this anytime it fits in your rotation after SnD has fallen below 10s.  This should be ~97-99% uptime.

 

2. Rupture uptime: This is another one that should be easy to shore up.  There will be times it will drop off, but this is key to keeping your numbers up, if only for the Sang. Veins mechanic.  It also doesn't hurt that this will be ticking away when you have to be away from the boss during things like Chain Hurl if you aren't going up, etc.  Longest attempt has you at 75%, you should be shooting for 90-95%+.

 

3: Hemo uptime:  This is the gap filler for when rupture might fall off, to ensure that you are still getting that Sang Veins buff. Same attempt: 75%, shoot for 95%+

 

4: Find Weakness uptime:  This one is a bit harder to change your habits.  As far as I've seen 80% would be extremely difficult to manage (didn't raid as Sub in MoP), but I would set a goal of around 50% uptime.  Anywhere 40% plus would be solid, imo.

 

Looking at your logs, it seems you used an appropriate amount of ShDances, 6 in a 7 min pull, but I only see 3 vanishes.  With the Sub perk, you should have a CD of 1m30s on vanish.  Couple that with prep, and napkin math would say, if you prep right after the first one, somewhere around 6 or 7 vanishes for that fight.

 

The value of SF over Subterfuge is not on the opener, but in the middle of the fight...  You can be sure that you won't waste any time sitting in Vanish(stealth) waiting for energy, and you can be sure to time it right when a FW is about to fall off from ShD.  It also saves you a huge amount of energy over the course of a fight, and allows more backstabs/evis during FW uptime.

 

A good rotation that works for me re: FW uptime:  Pre-pot, stealth, SnD before pull if CP allows, ShS, Ambush, Hemo, Rupture, Begin ShD... as FW is falling off from last Ambush, right before it finishes, vanish/Ambush, then prep ASAP (so you can hopefully get 2 preps in each attempt)... After that FW is about to fall off, do the same Vanish/Ambush, to maintain it.  Then ShD on CD, and Vanish when you can in the gaps as much as possible.  

 

Obviously maintaining ALL the other things you have going... easy right? biggrin.png  It's a complicated rotation, and I adore it.  Gear will help with numbers, and make some things easier, but getting down that rhythm is key, so get to those combat dummies!

 

Hey Energetic, thanks for your time!

 

Just a sidenote: on those logs, my lowest upkeep on SnD was on our last try, of 79.95%. But yeah, I'll improve on it. =P

 

About ~80% uptime @ MoP was because SnD was on a really short cooldown plus we'd have a chance on Ambushing instead of Backstabbing (4% if I recall well) with T16.

 

Raid calling while doing all this stuff is really complicated, since it's my first time on the front of it (before I used to give small insights here and there, when our RL forgot to mention or people were missing too much in that spot), so people tend to rely on me now (or at least a good handful). I guess it comes down to muscle memory really. Will spend some time @ dummies to fix it down.

 

Once again, thanks!

 

If anyone else wants to point out something else, it's really welcome.

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Oh, quick Edit: Lust a few seconds after the pull for Kargath. This really benefits everyone, as it fits right into their major CDs, and you don't need it for a burn phase later in the fight

 

Now this is how you ask for help!

 

I didn't do a TL;DR version, but I went into pretty good detail below. Give it a read, and don't hesitate to ask questions if you need. Overall it seems relatively solid, you could just use some tightening up in certain places

 

Small suggestions: Run Sstep for Kargath so you can close distance more easily and not waste Energy. It's also off the gcd. Also make sure you have Hemo glyphed

 

First and most importantly - if you're raid leading, get somebody else to call timers. You're playing one of the more complicated DPS specs in the game, and you aren't doing yourself any favours by doing that and watching your raid. Get somebody else to call timers if you can.

 

That being said, let's get into the wall of text here. Happy reading! 

 

1) SnD Uptime. Isn't terribly awful, but you shouldn't be having this fall off at any time during the fight so it's worth mentioning. I'll put the same thing under Rupture below; don't be afraid of hitting that 10cp mark. If SnD are both going to expire around the same time, you can get to 10 cp and Rup > SnD to refresh them both on time. Never cast SnD first as it won't consume Anticipation stacks. You need to refresh each of them within a few seconds of the debuff falling off - this gives you a window of a few seconds to make sure you refresh properly, so you have plenty of time

 

2) Rupture Uptime. Really low. You need to make sure this is always up. As above: don't be afraid of hitting that 10cp mark. If SnD are both going to expire around the same time, you can get to 10 cp and Rup > SnD to refresh them both on time. Never cast SnD first as it won't consume Anticipation stacks. You need to refresh each of them within a few seconds of the debuff falling off - this gives you a window of a few seconds to make sure you refresh properly, so you have plenty of time

 

3) Hemo Uptime. Should be improved as well. While not as important as Rupture, you should still aim to have 100% uptime on this. Don't forget to refresh it right as FW is about to fall off, as the DoT snapshots the damage of the original strike. Casting Evis takes priority here though, so if you have FW about to fall off and 5+ cp, get that Evis off instead

 

4) Shadow Dance. Macro this to SR, there's no reason not to. Also read through the link that I'm posting under Energy Pooling; that will give some more good pointers on things to do with Dance. Can get more in a fight as well.

 

5) Vanish. It's off the gcd, so only cast it as you're ready to cast Ambush. This will avoid situations like just before the 2 minute mark in the log where you didn't get any skill off after Vanishing. Not using this on cooldown either, but again it's not too bad

 

6) CLOAK OF SHADOWS. This is in caps cause it's a HUGE grip for me. You took magic damage during the fight and never once cast Cloak of Shadows. Big no-no. It prevents you from taking any magic damage, iis off the gcd, and doesn't break stealth. There is literally no downside to casting it at all, so abuse the hell out of it every chance you can. /endrant

 

7) Energy Pooling. Read this for some more info; I go pretty well into the topic here, so it's not worth typing out again

 

http://www.icy-veins.com/forums/topic/7987-how-to-properly-use-shadow-dance/

 

8) Opening. Okay so here's where Sub gets really complicated. Before the pull, you should do 2 things: get SnD up, and pre-pot. But Potion breaks stealth, so what do?

  • Stealth at the 10 second to pull mark
  • Premed
  • Unstealth
  • SnD and prepot with 1 second until pull (If you're really lucky, a healer or somebody else got a crit in this time so you can SnD with 3 cp instead of 2)
  • Restealth

Once the fight starts it gets even crazier.

  • Ambush (2cp) --> FW, 10s
  • Hemo (3cp) --> SV + benefits from FW
  • HaT proc (4cp) --> yay free cp. If you didn't get the third one earlier, this will probably proc before you cast Hemo
  • BS (5cp)
  • Pool energy + HaT proc (6cp)
  • Dance (macro'd to SR)
  • Rupture (1cp) --> going to get a second Rup from your clone this way
  • Ambush spam + Evis

SnD is 18s, which should last through your entire Dance - assuming you didn't cast it too early you should be fine. 24s from the third cp pretty much guarantees this though, which is awesome for you. Either way you'll still likely lose some time, cause you'll probably end up refreshing it during FW. Not a huge loss, it's just not 100% ideal. 

 

Remember to keep an eye on Rup and Hemo trackers, and refresh those when you need to.

Edited by Carrn

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Hey Carrn, thanks for your inputs!

 

After the raid session, I pulled 2 members in a separate chat to help me track on logs. I can ask them to keep timers on check.

 

As of opening, that's a problem in our group. We pugged one tank, and the other one never raided with us (only as pug). But well, ours' was the one who pulled the tries, was firing DBM and freaking far away from boss - once the timer ended, he started moving towards to aggro (when he should be aggroing once DBM timer ended), but I guess it's due how each of us got used to raid. That was screwing my timers.

 

One small "trick" that I learned during raiding is that I can ask for a healer throw an AoE heal, and use the heal crits to proc HaT beforehand and save Prem to tag with Ambush and open with a Rupture, instead of using on SnD. Also,

I assume that rotation you mentioned was using SF, right? And isn't better to use Rupture right before bursting with SR?

 

I'm going home, once I arrive I'll edit with more questions/thoughts.

 

For now, thanks!

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One small "trick" that I learned during raiding is that I can ask for a healer throw an AoE heal, and use the heal crits to proc HaT beforehand and save Prem to tag with Ambush and open with a Rupture, instead of using on SnD. Also,

I assume that rotation you mentioned was using SF, right? And isn't better to use Rupture right before bursting with SR?

 

Yes, that's using SF. Ambush for the opener from stealth then Hemo for the SV damage boost, BS for another cp then pool energy for your SR and Dance rotation.

 

Don't think you read the whole opener section completely, or if you did then I guess I wasn't clear enough. 

 

I think it's better to get the HaT proc with Premed to put up SnD before the fight begins so that you can do your entire opening burst and not have to waste time, energy, and cp until your Dance is done and the FW from it is about to expire. 

 

If you read the other post I made (which you should ^.^ ), my personal opinion is that entering Dance with as many cp as possible is better, and having your clone duplicate Rupture is really nice simply because it hits so ridiculously hard. The way I look at it is this: Rupture did a little more than half the damage that Evis did with under half the number of casts (for me, I didn't double check your logs to confirm this. It might be different cause your uptime on Rupture was pretty low). That will only go up as we get more Multistrike on gear, so it's a good habit to get in to now if you ask me

 

I'd actually like to correct myself and make things a little more complicated. Rather than waste a gcd inside Dance casting Rupture, it would be better to do:

  • SR
  • Rup
  • Dance
  • Ambush + Evis spam

It complicates things because now I'll be using a button for Dance and another for SR, but that's ok.

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Yes, that's using SF. Ambush for the opener from stealth then Hemo for the SV damage boost, BS for another cp then pool energy for your SR and Dance rotation.

 

Don't think you read the whole opener section completely, or if you did then I guess I wasn't clear enough. 

 

I think it's better to get the HaT proc with Premed to put up SnD before the fight begins so that you can do your entire opening burst and not have to waste time, energy, and cp until your Dance is done and the FW from it is about to expire. 

 

If you read the other post I made (which you should ^.^ ), my personal opinion is that entering Dance with as many cp as possible is better, and having your clone duplicate Rupture is really nice simply because it hits so ridiculously hard. The way I look at it is this: Rupture did a little more than half the damage that Evis did with under half the number of casts (for me, I didn't double check your logs to confirm this. It might be different cause your uptime on Rupture was pretty low). That will only go up as we get more Multistrike on gear, so it's a good habit to get in to now if you ask me

 

I'd actually like to correct myself and make things a little more complicated. Rather than waste a gcd inside Dance casting Rupture, it would be better to do:

  • SR
  • Rup
  • Dance
  • Ambush + Evis spam

It complicates things because now I'll be using a button for Dance and another for SR, but that's ok.

 

Hey Carrn! Yeah, I've read your SDancing post, and I've been trying to do so. I tend to not go full CP tho - as I said, I was raid calling, lotsa shiznit to control lol

 

As for SR, I already do that. I kind of lose 1s (?) due to being in different binds, might do a macro later, and that's one of my downtime problems with Rupture - I try to time it with the shadow, so I can get a decent burst.

 

As for the opener, I read. What I'm saying is that I thought it'd be better to use Prem to pool points for the Rupture without wasting energy. To get SnD running, I count on my raid's heal to proc some crits and pool CPs early off stealth, so I can SnD already, prepot and stealth direct into fight, doing Prem Ambush (luckily getting another CP with HaT) so I can fire off Rup SF SD spam.

 

I find hard to play without Subterfuge, it's that a noticeable DPS increase to use SF? xD

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I'd actually like to correct myself and make things a little more complicated. Rather than waste a gcd inside Dance casting Rupture, it would be better to do:

  • SR
  • Rup
  • Dance
  • Ambush + Evis spam

It complicates things because now I'll be using a button for Dance and another for SR, but that's ok.

 

That's a really interesting thought. I wonder if someone more familiar with simulationcraft than I could tweak the options to test what the affect on DPS is with this smile.png

Edited by Vancleff

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Hey Carrn! Yeah, I've read your SDancing post, and I've been trying to do so. I tend to not go full CP tho - as I said, I was raid calling, lotsa shiznit to control lol

 

As for SR, I already do that. I kind of lose 1s (?) due to being in different binds, might do a macro later, and that's one of my downtime problems with Rupture - I try to time it with the shadow, so I can get a decent burst.

 

As for the opener, I read. What I'm saying is that I thought it'd be better to use Prem to pool points for the Rupture without wasting energy. To get SnD running, I count on my raid's heal to proc some crits and pool CPs early off stealth, so I can SnD already, prepot and stealth direct into fight, doing Prem Ambush (luckily getting another CP with HaT) so I can fire off Rup SF SD spam.

 

I find hard to play without Subterfuge, it's that a noticeable DPS increase to use SF? xD

 

Yeah the way I suggest to do it forces you in to 5cp at the start of your first SR / Dance.

 

Subterfuge and SF are actually pretty close - Subterfuge also tends to be more complicated and requires more energy pooling like Dance does, which lends SF to be even easier to use. that being said, if you're more comfortable playing with it than SF then you can.

 

The longer the fight goes though, the more beneficial SF is to you

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I see.

 

It's I'm so used to Subterfuge that feels clunky to not be able to use any stealth skills after 1st one, I feel... naked. Twice. lol (already felt like that when they took off the stealth component from it)

 

I tend to Vanish and pass by Prem in a flash spamming Ambush to not lose uptime on FW that I only notice Prem after it. And if I spec into SF, boom - where's Prem. As I replied to Energetic, it's something muscular memory-based already, and those are a bit hard to retrain - habits are hard to get rid off.

 

But very well, I'll force myself out of my comfort zone.

 

I have a question tho. I'm getting a bit lost on AoE scenarios. I've been keeping up Rupture up to 5 dudes, after that I start spamming FoK/CT per 12s and spam Evisc on the first son of a demon that I see in my way. Teh threshold for Rupture is correct? And do you guys experience any lag when target-tabbing? I gotta slap twice my tab key to change targets. It gets GCD locked or something alike, like afterskill lock? (insane question, but eh lol)

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I tend to Vanish and pass by Prem in a flash spamming Ambush to not lose uptime on FW that I only notice Prem after it. And if I spec into SF, boom - where's Prem. As I replied to Energetic, it's something muscular memory-based already, and those are a bit hard to retrain - habits are hard to get rid off.

 
This is exactly the reason that Premed is also macro'd into all my openers. I have it as a single spell for the start of the fight when I go to set up with SnD etc, but then mid fight I don't worry about pressing it - I just have a WeakAura there for it so that I can tell how many cp I'll get from my next opener, so I know if I should use some before Dancing so I don't waste them
 
Easy solutions :D
 

I have a question tho. I'm getting a bit lost on AoE scenarios. I've been keeping up Rupture up to 5 dudes, after that I start spamming FoK/CT per 12s and spam Evisc on the first son of a demon that I see in my way. Teh threshold for Rupture is correct? And do you guys experience any lag when target-tabbing? I gotta slap twice my tab key to change targets. It gets GCD locked or something alike, like afterskill lock? (insane question, but eh lol)

 

 

You're still using FoK as your cp-builder against any more than 2 targets correct? If not, you should be.

 

Yes I also have to press tab twice. I have no idea why this is the case, but it's just muscle memory for me at this point. Would be awesome if I didn't have to

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