Damien

Heroes of the Storm Cho

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This thread is for comments about our Cho build guide for Heroes of the Storm.

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Rollback is clearly superior choice, because the damage difference is at best negligible, but another chance at blowing it up is invaluable and can change the encounter in your favor, especially against players who actively dodge the first roll.

 

Butcher is very weak against Cho'gall due to Cho'gall's ability to get away from melee range fast, use molten block when branded and Gall's Shadow Bolt Volley which will kill butcher even if he's hitting a marked target.

 

Kharazim should be added to counters. SSS.

 

Power surge is very useful against leoric and useful against any team.

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Fuel the Flame needs to be updated, I believe that it now increases the duration of the heal by 75% instead of increasing the amount healed by 50% for consuming Blaze after picking up a regeration globe.  

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Fuel the Flame needs to be updated, I believe that it now increases the duration of the heal by 75% instead of increasing the amount healed by 50% for consuming Blaze after picking up a regeration globe.  

 

Good catch. I still wouldn't recommend the talent.

 

Rollback is clearly superior choice, because the damage difference is at best negligible, but another chance at blowing it up is invaluable and can change the encounter in your favor, especially against players who actively dodge the first roll.

 

Butcher is very weak against Cho'gall due to Cho'gall's ability to get away from melee range fast, use molten block when branded and Gall's Shadow Bolt Volley which will kill butcher even if he's hitting a marked target.

 

Kharazim should be added to counters. SSS.

 

Power surge is very useful against leoric and useful against any team.

 

Regarding Rollback: I think it's one of those "make-up" talents that become worse as the Cho and Gall players become better and more coordinated. I can't remember a time where I thought I could have used Rollback over Runed Gauntlet. I'm always impressed with my main partner's (I tend to play Gall) ability to aim Rune Bomb properly in the first place. The talent would essentially be a waste for us. I know of a lot of people - including "pros" - whom swear by the talent, but I just can't see it.

 

Regarding your Butcher analysis: You're not wrong, but let's not forget that teamwork is an important part of dealing with Cho'gall. Shadowbolt Volley is pretty simple to dodge at close range, and using Molten Block against Brand opens you to be Lambed (and other heroics).

 

Regarding Kharazim: Whereas SSS is very strong versus Cho'gall, Kharazim doesn't do well against him under any other circumstance. The main issue being that he needs to be close to allies and constantly attacking to maximise his healing, something that Cho'gall punishes with glee. Molten Block is also an excellent counter-talent.

 

Regarding Power Surge: I wouldn't pick it over I AM Hurrying!, although you still make a very relevant point. Remember to keep Molten Block for Entomb.

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So a few notes on Cho that I've noticed while playing him recently.

 

1. Most of the listed "counters" are just people capable of 1v1ing Cho'Gall at a high level. You should not be 1v1ing anybody at a high level unless you are certain you can blow them up before they can react, even as Cho'Gall, the risk of getting ganged up on is far too great to engage in any fight that lasts more then a few seconds without the rest of your team backing you up. Specifically, Illidan and Butcher should die well before they can amass the damage to actually kill you and their assassination efforts will almost certainly be focused on easier targets.

 

2. I have no idea why Raynor is listed as a counter. Early game you walk all over him, and by the time he manages to be a threat, you have upheaval, and he has no way to avoid it easily. Even with Adrenaline Rush, Rayner simply cannot survive getting yanked into your team. He does kind of pigeonhole you into picking upheaval, but that's hardly a bad thing, as upheaval is an amazing ultimate.

 

3. Anub'Arak should be listed as a hard counter. Cacoon completely shuts you down for a ridiculous amount of time, it's nigh impossible to avoid, and turns any teamfight into a 3 V 5, which your team will lose hard. I actually consider Anub'Arak as a harder counter then Leoric (at least it takes him several seconds to actually kill me)

 

4. While Blazing Bulwark and Fire Eater are very good talents, Surging Dash and Power Surge do a great deal to increase Cho's mobility. I've found that the best way to avoid dieing as Cho'Gall is not maximizing tankyness/sustain, but simply to avoid putting yourself in a position where the enemy can focus you long enough to bring you down. Surging Dash greatly increases the length of your dash, increasing your threat radius while Power Surge greatly reduces one of his Q's greatest weaknesses, wind up time. The difference between a half a second wind up time and a full second wind up time is huge and can mean the difference between catching someone or letting them get away, or the difference between escaping and getting interrupted. The width isn't that big of a deal, but I will say that the giant aoe slow that you get from combining power surge and crippling blow gives Stun Hammer Cho a very nice initiation tool.

 

Oh yeah, general guide to escaping from danger as Cho'Gall

 

Step 1: Have Gall shove you away from the teamfight, this will get you out of range of most CCs.

Step 2: Have Gall press Z and run until the duration is over

Step 3: If still being chased, press Q and get out.

 

This will get you across all but the largest of maps without having to pick up your horse(best mount ever).

 

This is how I escape danger about 90% of the time, the nice thing about it is that since Q is the last step, it'll probably be up even if you initiated with it. Not having to save Q for escape opens up a lot of possibilities for Cho'Gall to make proactive plays without fear of not having an out.

Edited by WebBowser

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While all of your points are excellent, I typically write guides in a more conservative/focused manner, and then try to "fan out" as I figure out niche and general uses for talents. Over time, my guides tend to take a lot of non-recommend talents to the "situational" category. For instance, after 75-or-so Cho'gall games, I finally figured out a niche use for Eye of Kilrogg, and we've started making use of Fuel the Flame when there are no strong basic attackers facing us. At some point however, we somewhat have to do a cutoff and say "okay, this is an acceptable talent, but we feel that talent Y may just be more useful more often" because, in the end, it is a guide and not a commentary on talent design nor a study on the lining-up of ultraspecific game variables.

 

Thanks for the good comments & contributions, by the way!

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@Oxygen Yeah, the main point of my last post was to comment on different Cho'Gall counters, but I also like talking about talents because talents are fun. You're quite welcome on the comments by the way. Cho'Gall is easily my favorite hero in the game in terms of design, there is literally nothing else in the entire genre quite like it, so It's nice to be able to discuss his ins and outs with an experienced player.

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Regarding Rollback: I think it's one of those "make-up" talents that become worse as the Cho and Gall players become better and more coordinated.

I am now a level 11 Cho player, playing with the same gall player everytime, whos damage is exceptional, tbh. We always go with rune bomb range and Rollback. I am impressed by my gall's ability to determine whether or not to detonate the bomb on the first targets it passes, or to wait for me to place differently for the rollback. i Would argue that the reason my galls damage is higher than the other cho'galls i experience in games, is that our bombs hit around 90-95 % of the time, this comes down to good throws, and surprising rollbacks if they dodge it, which alot of people do, no Cho can hit everytime, but he can move, and people forget the death from  behind surprisingly quickly. We always go for a bowler build and have a quite impressive winrate, i do respect alot of the choices here, but disagree with the level 4 talent alot. I recommend new players to experiment alot with Cho'Gall, since it comes down to the two players synergies. Me and my friend likes to go Boomerang-Bowling

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I find Tychus is an incredibly effective counter to a Cho'Gall. If he picks up your Anti-Tank Build (Focusing on melting tanks with MinigunMinigun) he can kill a Cho'Gall in a team fight in about 5 seconds (or at least in less coordinated play), especially if the enemy Cho is very aggressive in using Hammer of TwilightHammer of Twilight or Surging FistSurging Fist. Picking up Press the AdvantagePress the Advantage will help you finish him if he runs, Drakken Laser DrillDrakken Laser Drill will punish him for overextending, and a well stacked In the RhythmIn the Rhythm combined with That's the Stuff!That's the Stuff! gives him enough sustain that MinigunMinigun's duration basically renders you unkillable if he sneaks up on you in a 1v1 (or 1v2 in this case), meaning you can retreat as needed with a peeling Frag GrenadeFrag Grenade and Run and GunRun and Gun, force them to back off, or get assistance from nearby allies.

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2 hours ago, Blainie said:

Going to tag @Straften, since he is the writer for the Tychus guide. He'll have more insight on this than me, for sure!

Alright, thanks! Just as a side note to my earlier post, I meant you can kill a Cho'Gall in a team fight with help. If you try to fight him with no support (and let's just put the outrageous number of a 15 second MinigunMinigun stacked from In the RhythmIn the Rhythm) it would still take you a good amount of time before you can burn through his entire health pool, and before level 13, you will always die unless an ally is nearby to help you take him down or you make the wise decision of peeling away and kiting him.

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3 hours ago, Niteshadow said:

Alright, thanks! 

No worries! Thanks for adding the clarification, hopefully it will help him better understand where you're coming from.

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On 11/21/2016 at 8:27 AM, Niteshadow said:

Alright, thanks! Just as a side note to my earlier post, I meant you can kill a Cho'Gall in a team fight with help. If you try to fight him with no support (and let's just put the outrageous number of a 15 second MinigunMinigun stacked from In the RhythmIn the Rhythm) it would still take you a good amount of time before you can burn through his entire health pool, and before level 13, you will always die unless an ally is nearby to help you take him down or you make the wise decision of peeling away and kiting him.

Tychus can deal an insane amount of damage to them, as long as he is standing still within range of all of Gall's Abilities. Although Tychus is dealing percent Health damage, the flat damage of Gall is so large that Tychus will lose this trade. If anything, it will be the Cho who kites the Tychus away. Gall can outrange him by quite a lot, which forces Tychus to take damage just to get into Basic Attack range. I agree that on paper Tychus seems like a good counter to Cho'gall, I came to the same conclusion at first. In practice though, I find that good Cho'gall players zone me out hard, often forcing me to retreat before I am able to deal meaningful damage to them. 

There are exceptions of course. Sometimes Cho and Gall aren't used to playing with each other, or sometimes they are just not very good. In these cases, Tychus can certainly melt them, and quickly. You also bring up a good point about needing help from your team. I do think Tychus can be part of a solution to Cho'gall, even great ones; however, I do not think he counters them on his own. This is likely why he is not listed as a counter by Oxygen.

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10 hours ago, Straften said:

There are exceptions of course. Sometimes Cho and Gall aren't used to playing with each other, or sometimes they are just not very good. In these cases, Tychus can certainly melt them, and quickly. You also bring up a good point about needing help from your team. I do think Tychus can be part of a solution to Cho'gall, even great ones; however, I do not think he counters them on his own. This is likely why he is not listed as a counter by Oxygen.

I must have been playing against some Cho'gall players who were not too coordinated, as I was able to really get through their health pool once In the RhythmIn the Rhythm really started to buff my MinigunMinigun duration and I could stay alive with That's the Stuff!That's the Stuff!. I remember one part of a game as Tychus very well where I popped MinigunMinigun after level 13 and outsustained both of them at once, forcing a hasty retreat. Just throwing this out there; against better Cho'galls, he could be rather ineffective. Thanks for taking my proposition into consideration though!

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On 11/25/2016 at 5:35 PM, Niteshadow said:

Thanks for taking my proposition into consideration though!

It's what we strive to do! Good analysis and suggestions keep our writers on their toes ;D

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3 hours ago, MarioToast said:

What about Auriel? Her passive benefits from the damage of both Cho and Gall, so she's an excellent support for him.

Funnily enough, she lists Cho/Gall as synergies, but not the other way round. I'm sure we'll see this with the guide format update to Cho/Gall.

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I actually have very little to add, I think this guide is excellent. I find it odd that you note Upheaval's synergy with shadowbolt volley without noting its ludicrous synergy with twisting neather. As long as you coordinate with Gall to start the neather shortly prior to the upheavel, you should be able to hit all of upheavel's victims with neather at a minimum. If you have aoe CC to follow up with (level 20 talent, lead nova, ring of frost, etc), then you and your allies can pull off a full skill rotation, often resulting in an outright victory. Prior to level 20, shadowbolt volley will only hit the guy closest to you, which leaves all your other victims relatively healthy. It's not a bad combo to be sure, but neather just combos so much better.

 

I still maintain that taking neather with hammer will always lead to sadness though...

Edited by WebBowser

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I would like more elaboration as to why Calloused HideCalloused Hide is the only viable level 1 talent. I often get just as much or more mileage out of Consuming FireConsuming Fire due to the fact that we tend to use Ogre Rage a lot more than Ogre Hide in most circumstances (especially since, in QM, ending up with no support at all is not unlikely).

I would call it at least situational. Even if you feel the healing bonus (150% really does not feel insignificant) is weak, it still is flat out better in no-support QMs.   

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Twilight VeilTwilight Veil's comment talks about a "extremely long cooldown", but it's only 30 seconds. Is that really long? I mean, Hardened shield is 4 second duration with 60 second cooldown, so it's technically the same-ish?

 

Molten BlockMolten Block displays a cooldown of 0 seconds, but URF mode hasn't been introduced as a Heroes Brawl yet.

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On ‎19‎.‎7‎.‎2017 at 3:52 PM, TwixTrix said:

Twilight VeilTwilight Veil's comment talks about a "extremely long cooldown", but it's only 30 seconds. Is that really long? I mean, Hardened shield is 4 second duration with 60 second cooldown, so it's technically the same-ish?

 

Molten BlockMolten Block displays a cooldown of 0 seconds, but URF mode hasn't been introduced as a Heroes Brawl yet.

For Cho'Gall, 30 seconds is a long cooldown. I will however pass it onto Oxy to see if he could make it a bit less overexaggerated. As for the tooltip, thank you! Not sure if I said this already, but Blizzard has been changing their tooltip code for about 2 months, reducing the amount of integers and as a result making the game run slightly better, but because we datamine the tooltips, it's been breaking them, often by making them multiply by 0 (this case) or dividing by zero. So, we are very grateful for all the help with finding faulty tooltips!

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As an avid Cho'gall player myself, I find that I almost never pick Hour of Twilight. Firstly, because games never seem to make it to level 20 while we're Cho'galling. Secondly, because I tend to play on the slightly more defensive side, I don't find myself dying too much.

While it's easy to say "Oh, a good Cho'gall shouldn't die" and act smug about it, I really do feel justified in saying that it often turns out better if I pick the C'Thun's Gift or Favor of the Old Gods. Since, once again, I have the capacity to escape from situations with my Q. The only time I feel like one should pick Hour of Twilight is when they've died a bunch of times. But if you've died a bunch of times as Cho'gall, there's a good chance you're never going to make it to level 20 since you're getting your arse handed to you. Know what I'm saying?

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On 20/11/2017 at 6:10 AM, LobsterEmperor said:

As an avid Cho'gall player myself, I find that I almost never pick Hour of Twilight. Firstly, because games never seem to make it to level 20 while we're Cho'galling. Secondly, because I tend to play on the slightly more defensive side, I don't find myself dying too much.

While it's easy to say "Oh, a good Cho'gall shouldn't die" and act smug about it, I really do feel justified in saying that it often turns out better if I pick the C'Thun's Gift or Favor of the Old Gods. Since, once again, I have the capacity to escape from situations with my Q. The only time I feel like one should pick Hour of Twilight is when they've died a bunch of times. But if you've died a bunch of times as Cho'gall, there's a good chance you're never going to make it to level 20 since you're getting your arse handed to you. Know what I'm saying?

Oh, definitely. I understand that. Dying as Cho'gall is terrible since you'll award the enemy team 2x the XP, and lose a lot of power, which allows the enemy team to push.

However, playing Cho'gall offensively is really really fun, specially if you run on Double Support + Nuker alongside Cho'gall. Me and my Cho partner (I play Gall), love to run with an offensive combination that deals surprisingly high damage.

Here's the Cho build he runs with, and here's the Gall build I use.

We're always moving, scouting and killing minions to gain more stacks of Fuel for the FlameFuel for the Flame, while placing  Eye of KilroggEye of Kilrogg at strategical points. It's really fun.

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On 19 iulie 2017 at 4:52 PM, TwixTrix said:

Twilight VeilTwilight Veil's comment talks about a "extremely long cooldown", but it's only 30 seconds. Is that really long? I mean, Hardened shield is 4 second duration with 60 second cooldown, so it's technically...

 

Unfortunatly, Twilight Veil is only 2 seconds long.

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