Helltooth Gargantuan Witch Doctor

[Guest Question]

I've read somewhere (, but can't remember who/where) that it didn't matter how high the Tasker and Theo affix roll was because a 50% roll did not reach a greater attack speed breakpoint than a 40% roll. If this is true, wouldn't replacing TnT with Helltooth Gauntlets and Ring of Royal Grandeur with Convention of Elements result in higher dps (because CoE averages out to a 50% multiplicative damage increase)?

[Valks 2,377]

On 11/5/2017 at 12:59 PM, Guest Question said:

I've read somewhere (, but can't remember who/where) that it didn't matter how high the Tasker and Theo affix roll was because a 50% roll did not reach a greater attack speed breakpoint than a 40% roll. If this is true, wouldn't replacing TnT with Helltooth Gauntlets and Ring of Royal Grandeur with Convention of Elements result in higher dps (because CoE averages out to a 50% multiplicative damage increase)?

I've been trying to find something about attack speed breakpoints relating to this, but can't. I'll ask Deadset.

[Guest thrillhouse]

Which build is better? Helltooth or Zunimassa gargantuan WD?

[Valks 2,377]

4 hours ago, Guest thrillhouse said:

Which build is better? Helltooth or Zunimassa gargantuan WD?

They are extremely similar in strength. Helltooth would be a minuscule amount better.

[Guest thrillhouse]

Ok, thank you very much. I will stick with Helltooth for GRs & bounties then. I am going to test Zunimassa for DB-farming (Hellfire Amulet + Sage set).

[Guest Hello]

7 hours ago, Blainie said:

They are extremely similar in strength. Helltooth would be a minuscule amount better.

Isn't Zunimassa better, at least for GRs, because it has more damage?

I understand Helltooth would be better for farming because it can use Manajuma's Way.

[Arkpit 101]

17 hours ago, Guest Hello said:

Isn't Zunimassa better, at least for GRs, because it has more damage?

I understand Helltooth would be better for farming because it can use Manajuma's Way.

Before the patch I would say Zunimassa would be the winner but now it's really only a matter of preferred playstyle since the change in damage, as mentionedd already, is barely worth thinking about.

[Guest Hello]

4 hours ago, Arkpit said:

Before the patch I would say Zunimassa would be the winner but now it's really only a matter of preferred playstyle since the change in damage, as mentionedd already, is barely worth thinking about.

Well I disagree. Zunimassa set bonus is 1100% higher than Helltooth, and it also has Mantle of Channeling, so it's still a clear winner to me. Helltooth is a bit more tankier, but like with Firebats, people only play with Arachyr and not Helltooth.

[Valks 2,377]

21 hours ago, Guest Hello said:

Well I disagree. Zunimassa set bonus is 1100% higher than Helltooth, and it also has Mantle of Channeling, so it's still a clear winner to me. Helltooth is a bit more tankier, but like with Firebats, people only play with Arachyr and not Helltooth.

This might be true, but Zuni 2-piece adds less damage than Helltooth 2-piece. Helltooth runs Tasker and Theo, Zuni runs CoE. Zuni runs Transcendence, Helltooth runs Witching Hour.

There's a huge amount of differences here other than simple set bonus. The actual output is incredibly similar.

[Guest Hello]

4 hours ago, Blainie said:

This might be true, but Zuni 2-piece adds less damage than Helltooth 2-piece. Helltooth runs Tasker and Theo, Zuni runs CoE. Zuni runs Transcendence, Helltooth runs Witching Hour.

There's a huge amount of differences here other than simple set bonus. The actual output is incredibly similar.

Isn't Helltooth 2p's damage basically irrelevant? CoE and TnT is about the same, and The Witching Hour doesn't compare to Mantle of And the higher 6p bonus.

[Valks 2,377]

On 11/25/2017 at 9:57 PM, Guest Hello said:

Isn't Helltooth 2p's damage basically irrelevant? CoE and TnT is about the same, and The Witching Hour doesn't compare to Mantle of And the higher 6p bonus.

To your actual question - is it better in GRs? Helltooth is better simply because damage isn't the most important thing at the maximum of your gear. Almost every class can outdamage rifts higher than their set allows, they just can't survive it. Look at Wizard leaderboards: Frozen Orb DMO is top over Firebird's because of how absurdly tanky it is. It does less damage than FB, but barely dies. You have to fish for rifts with it, yeah, but it pushes higher. Same goes for DH - UE does more damage when left alone that M4/N6, as does normal M6, but M4/N6 is far tankier due to defensive bonuses from Nat6 set and Marauder 4set.

What I'm trying to say is, both sets have individual damage differences and, despite Zuni doing more slightly damage, that extra damage is useless when you are dead. The extra survivability of HT is far more important. 

[Guest Hello]

7 hours ago, Blainie said:

To your actual question - is it better in GRs? Helltooth is better simply because damage isn't the most important thing at the maximum of your gear. Almost every class can outdamage rifts higher than their set allows, they just can't survive it. Look at Wizard leaderboards: Frozen Orb DMO is top over Firebird's because of how absurdly tanky it is. It does less damage than FB, but barely dies. You have to fish for rifts with it, yeah, but it pushes higher. Same goes for DH - UE does more damage when left alone that M4/N6, as does normal M6, but M4/N6 is far tankier due to defensive bonuses from Nat6 set and Marauder 4set.

What I'm trying to say is, both sets have individual damage differences and, despite Zuni doing more slightly damage, that extra damage is useless when you are dead. The extra survivability of HT is far more important. 

Well, there is also evidence to the contrary: Firebats is only really played with Arachyr which has more damage, rather than Helltooth which is tankier.

Sorry if I may have sounded too hostile.

[Arkpit 101]

10 hours ago, Guest Hello said:

Well, there is also evidence to the contrary: Firebats is only really played with Arachyr which has more damage, rather than Helltooth which is tankier.

Sorry if I may have sounded too hostile.

I would say Arachyr and Helltooth are very interchangable in this patch. The set bonus alone is just 100% difference and the rest is more or less playstyle preference since all you really change is the Wall of Death for Hex as far as I can see.

It's all just healthy discussions for a game we are all pretty passionate about, it's common that text can be misinterpred on occasion :)

Edited November 28, 2017 by Arkpit

[Guest Hello]

40 minutes ago, Arkpit said:

I would say Arachyr and Helltooth are very interchangable in this patch. The set bonus alone is just 100% difference and the rest is more or less playstyle preference since all you really change is the Wall of Death for Hex as far as I can see.

It's all just healthy discussions for a game we are all pretty passionate about, it's common that text can be misinterpred on occasion :)

Hex: Jinx gives an additional 15% additive damage as well.

[Guest Guest]

I'm a relatively new player and am wondering what the pros/cons of Pierce the Veil over Confidence Ritual. Is it really just a 5 percentage point difference between the two? If so, PtV seems preferable as it applies to all enemies (not just those in close proximity). Please help me to understand the consensus. 

[Arkpit 101]

21 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

I'm a relatively new player and am wondering what the pros/cons of Pierce the Veil over Confidence Ritual. Is it really just a 5 percentage point difference between the two? If so, PtV seems preferable as it applies to all enemies (not just those in close proximity). Please help me to understand the consensus. 

It is as you say, PtV will work at all times regardless of where you stand compared to the ritual being a close proximity thing.

Garg build works great with PtV since you barely use any mana anyway and it's a much safer pick than ritual for higher GRs.

[Arkpit 101]

On 2017-11-28 at 11:02 AM, Guest Hello said:

Hex: Jinx gives an additional 15% additive damage as well.

While the WoD gives a 25% damage reduction on enemies hit so it's all just safety vs. damage numbers in the end.

[Valks 2,377]

On 11/29/2017 at 3:10 PM, Arkpit said:

While the WoD gives a 25% damage reduction on enemies hit so it's all just safety vs. damage numbers in the end.

Which in turn ends up being a discussion of channeling time, time spent moving, time spent with full damage buff from Endless Walk, etc. etc.

In the end, I stand by Helltooth/Zuni being very similar and Arachyr obviously being top.

[Guest hmmm]

i am doing much more dmg and doing bigger rifts with nonancient helltooth build than with ancient arachyr build...

[Arkpit 101]

7 hours ago, Guest hmmm said:

i am doing much more dmg and doing bigger rifts with nonancient helltooth build than with ancient arachyr build...

So, without much information we need to ask a question first:

Are you using Gargantuan with Arachyr? Because that doesn't work:

"(6) Set:
The damage of your creature skills is increased by 4500%. Creature skills are Corpse Spiders, Plague of Toads, Firebats, Locust Swarm, Hex, and Piranhas."

Gargantuan is considered a "Pet" and NOT a "Creature".

Edited January 19, 2018 by Arkpit

[Guest that is correct]

On 11/5/2017 at 12:59 PM, Guest Question said:

I've read somewhere (, but can't remember who/where) that it didn't matter how high the Tasker and Theo affix roll was because a 50% roll did not reach a greater attack speed breakpoint than a 40% roll. If this is true, wouldn't replacing TnT with Helltooth Gauntlets and Ring of Royal Grandeur with Convention of Elements result in higher dps (because CoE averages out to a 50% multiplicative damage increase)?

That is correct. Base AS of garg is 84 frames per attack, any tasker and theo (doesn't matter whether it is 40% or 50%) will get it down to 60 fpa due to rounding. It seems you can lower it to 54 fpa with big bad voodoo, but it still doesn't matter how many % your T&T has as any roll will get it down to 54 fpa.

User PaulNg did the math in this thread from 2014, but it seems nothing has changed in that regard.
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/d3/topic/13349475072?page=1#8

[Guest Hello there :)]

What about Homunculus as a Mojo?

[Sunamar 0]

On 6/25/2018 at 1:12 AM, Guest Hello there :) said:

What about Homunculus as a Mojo?

Although the effect is related to Summon Zombie Dogs, which we use, I don't think it is anything useful. Unless you die in <30 secs when the cd of Summon Zombie Dogs is off, the effect is useless. I'd say Henri & Ukhapian are simply the best and only options (and for speedfarm Manajuma ofc).

 

Btw, I wanted to ask about something: What about using Hellfire Amulet + Tall Man's Finger / Unity instead of the set? Gargantuan Dog does pretty nice damage or Unity is 50% passive reduction at all times (in single player only ofc) + Hellfire offers you to have an extra passive like Pierce the Veil which is 20% additional damage for practically no penalty. Not sure if any of you thought of it already or tried it, if so, I'd love to hear your discoveries! ?

[Guest hello :)]

@Sunamar u dont get it, with Homunculus u can drop zombie dogs for suicide dogs + provoke the pack rune as the mojo already summon dogs even if u dont have the spell in your spell bar = +100% dmg.

[Valhalen 1,484]

There is this really cool build with Helltooth that is perfect for the current season "Boon of the Horadrim" (double Horadric Caches from Bounties). It is probably the fastest Bounty speedfarming build in the game thanks to HexAngry Chicken combined Manajuma's Carving Knife + Manajuma's Gory Fetch. REALLY FUN.