5.4 Destruction Tips and Quirks

[Nytemare 2]

This is all debated as if playing a certain race has a distinct, measureable difference.  The ONLY reason Trolls are outrageously good in most tiers was because of the 5% bonus to beasts, of which we saw several of.  5% was an absurd number to give to a racial and I'm glad it's fixed.  You're talking about a 1% crit chance or 2% crit damage bonus or some other marginal value that isn't going to make or break anyone.  I've seen current Blood Elves out DPS Trolls - it's largely inconsequential.  Spend the time and energy used deciding on a race to bettering your performance now and in the future.  Races, much like secondary stats, make a VERY small impact on your DPS.  Yes, there is some measureable difference.  Is it as impactful as everyone makes it out to be?  No, it is not.

 

Beast slayer is nice, but you only had 1x in HOF, 4-5x ToT (4 if you count only all beast fight, 5 if you consider Iron Qon part to count) & 1-2 SoO (1 if you only count Thok, 2 if you count the wolves DS have) ToT did have a lot and made that Troll tier.

 

But regarding SimCraft they have every class as a troll if they can, figure it was due to the Mini-Hero not really due to the limited Beast Slayer passive that only really shined in ToT

Edited August 27, 2014 by Nytemare

[Nytemare 2]

 

• Might of the Mountain is a new racial passive ability that increases Critical Strike bonus damage and healing dealt by 2%.

 

As far as I'm aware, crit damage being increased by 2% actually means 4%, as crits are 200%.

 

The Burning Primal Diamond is an example of this. It offers 3% bonus crit damage, however this results in a 6% increase to Chaos Bolt damage.

 

That is my reasoning for Dwarf.

 

 

Yeah that would make sense, why I figure at first they give a straight up damage boost to CB. Of course I had it only at 2% CB damage increase, but I like 4% better lol. Only time will tell.

[Zagam 1,983]

Thok is the major one to note.  In a 25 man guild, having 20 trolls as DPS essentially makes you a 26 man roster.  Nothing should have that sort of impact, especially a racial.

[Zagam 1,983]

Also, with the scaling of gear and how Haste stacking works, Berserking isn't worth 20% Haste - it's worth far more when coupled with Bloodlust, Tempus Repit, and any other Haste proc.  When snapshotting, the effect is astronomical. 

[Liquidsteel 279]

Also Dark Shamans. The dogs are beasts so you want to open by targeting one of those.

 

This is a huge increase for stuff like fire mages, or classes that just cleave, like warriors/rogues etc.

[Orthios 272]

 

• Might of the Mountain is a new racial passive ability that increases Critical Strike bonus damage and healing dealt by 2%.

 

As far as I'm aware, crit damage being increased by 2% actually means 4%, as crits are 200%.

 

The Burning Primal Diamond is an example of this. It offers 3% bonus crit damage, however this results in a 6% increase to Chaos Bolt damage.

 

That is my reasoning for Dwarf.

 

That does make sense, and it would cut down the crit "bp" to 25%.  All in all though, I'm going to agree with Zagam and say that it won't make too much of a difference and shouldn't be the deciding factor of what race you choose.

[Nytemare 2]

Also Dark Shamans. The dogs are beasts so you want to open by targeting one of those.

 

This is a huge increase for stuff like fire mages, or classes that just cleave, like warriors/rogues etc.

 

Far as I can recall every Tier even at the start T14 SimCraft had trolls as the race, even when there was only one boss that BS worked on. So made sense it was due to Berserking. If it wasn't troll it was Orc for the same reason kinda. The 2min DPS increase Cd Blood Fury made them strong.

 

Anyways I don't like the change they making to it in WoD. Current version made it usefull even at max level when out in the world. Sure it made it OP if raid boss was classified as a beas, but that happen so rare (Expect for ToT lol). New change makes it completely worthless at max level. Only way I can see it be decent at max if it could give extra money like how quest at max level gives more gold which xps is not useless.

 

 

That does make sense, and it would cut down the crit "bp" to 25%.  All in all though, I'm going to agree with Zagam and say that it won't make too much of a difference and shouldn't be the deciding factor of what race you choose.

 

Yeah I am currently human been for almost 10yrs now. Figure it time for a change. So since I like all the races, comes down to which will be more benefit for an ally lock come WoD. 

Edited August 27, 2014 by Nytemare

[Hurtlocker 11]

Yeah I am currently human been for almost 10yrs now. Figure it time for a change. So since I like all the races, comes down to which will be more benefit for an ally lock come WoD. 

 

If you go Worgen you can use the two forms button to be human again, for nostalgia.  You can't fix the ugly on a troll or dwarf. 

[Nytemare 2]

So since been talking about haste, I had a another look at your chat. I am little confused right now I have 30.85% haste and according to the chart with Hero/Meta Incinerate Backdraft  falls below 1.00sec GCD cap which I guess is bad, and dps lost. So go off that means I would want to not use Conflagrate during those times. I can work with that, but if I look at the chart more even with 5% self haste + 5% raid Haste + Meta/Hero Incinerate Backdraft also fall under 1.00 GCD cap. So even with no haste seems you can't win and if I understanding this right you going to be GCD cap on Incinerate regardless.

 

So my question is how do we combat this GCD capping? Do we just never use Conflagrate under any Haste increase effects? or do we still use Conflagrate to try and proc 2pc bonus to hopfuly go with 4pc snapshot immolate and use backdrafts on CB now to cast them as close to 1.00 sec as possible?

 

If we never supposed to use Conflagrate with Haste procs, then that would increase my DPS a little as I right now I use it with Incinerate regardless of what haste effects I am under, because I keep Conflagrate on cd all the time. Minute it comes up I pop it. Of course that only if not going to wasting emberbits due to capping and wasting incinerate just so CB doesn't consume backdraft.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Nytemare

[Zagam 1,983]

Tempus Repit uptime should be moderately low.  Should be very easy to avoid using Conflagrate for 10 second intervals of TR. 

 

For Bloodlust, this is only up for 40 seconds of any given fight.  You might GCD cap here, but who cares.  It's a relatively minor point that isn't throughout the entire fight.  You can't avoid GCD capping with certain buffs up, so just don't worry about it.  Just don't stack Haste to the point you bypass the GCD cap by a lot.  Having a 0.9 second Incinerate cast sucks, but it's ok.  Having a 0.5 second Incinerate cast means you're wasting 0.5 of your GCD. 

 

Conflag doesn't only faciliate faster casts.  It also reduces the mana cost which is helpful in not having to cast Chaos Bolt at inopportune times.  Even if you're going to GCD cap, Conflag still reduces the cast of your next 3 Incinerate spells, even if it pushes them to 1 sec activity globals.

[Nytemare 2]

Tempus Repit uptime should be moderately low.  Should be very easy to avoid using Conflagrate for 10 second intervals of TR. 

 

For Bloodlust, this is only up for 40 seconds of any given fight.  You might GCD cap here, but who cares.  It's a relatively minor point that isn't throughout the entire fight.  You can't avoid GCD capping with certain buffs up, so just don't worry about it.  Just don't stack Haste to the point you bypass the GCD cap by a lot.  Having a 0.9 second Incinerate cast sucks, but it's ok.  Having a 0.5 second Incinerate cast means you're wasting 0.5 of your GCD. 

 

Conflag doesn't only faciliate faster casts.  It also reduces the mana cost which is helpful in not having to cast Chaos Bolt at inopportune times.  Even if you're going to GCD cap, Conflag still reduces the cast of your next 3 Incinerate spells, even if it pushes them to 1 sec activity globals.

 

So I was right don't use Conflagrate during Meta. 0.9 not so bad I guess, but under Both Meta/Hero with my gear puts me at 

Incinerate = .867

Incinerate + Backdraft = .607

Immolate = .650

CB = 1.3

 

So going off this I would never use Conflagrate during both Meta/Hero correct? or is this falls under not a big deal you post about capping under lust?

 

Also since we talking about Lifeblood from Herb earlier. ability is a 2min CD that gives 2880 haste and line up with DSI every time. That according to AMR = 6.78% buffed haste (without 5% raid haste) or 12.12% with 5% raid buff. So how would I go about figuring out what everything will be when popped during DSI?

[Zagam 1,983]

It's not a big deal if you use Conflag during Tempus Repit.  It's ideal if you don't, but you're not going to fall below a Shadow Priest if you do.

 

If you're already GCD capped with TR + Bloodlust, why does it even matter what you're at if you add Lifeblood in as well?  You'll just be deeper into GCD capped territory. 

 

If you need to calculate things, Haste effects are multplicative.  You can use this to calculate everything you'd want to know on your own.  For example, if you had 0% Haste on gear but had the raid buff and used DS:I, you wouldn't get 35% by adding 30 and 5.  You'd convert each to numerical values of 1.3 and 1.05 and multiply these together to get 1.365, or 36.5%.  Do this for whatever you want to see where you're at.

[Nytemare 2]

It's not a big deal if you use Conflag during Tempus Repit.  It's ideal if you don't, but you're not going to fall below a Shadow Priest if you do.

 

If you're already GCD capped with TR + Bloodlust, why does it even matter what you're at if you add Lifeblood in as well?  You'll just be deeper into GCD capped territory. 

 

If you need to calculate things, Haste effects are multplicative.  You can use this to calculate everything you'd want to know on your own.  For example, if you had 0% Haste on gear but had the raid buff and used DS:I, you wouldn't get 35% by adding 30 and 5.  You'd convert each to numerical values of 1.3 and 1.05 and multiply these together to get 1.365, or 36.5%.  Do this for whatever you want to see where you're at.

 

Misunderstood I was not talking about Lifeblood with Meta + Hero as I know that just make me deeper in GCD capped area like you said. At most might be able to make CB have 1sec cast to maximize them. 

 

I was going off what everything would be if I had just Lifeblood + 5% Raid Buff up is all. Lifeblood lines up with DSI every 2min so no reason to never use them together if you have it. So wanting to know what my casts would be with just it.

 

DSI = Cirt not haste (thinking DSM then). 12.12% if I put in 2880 in manual haste raiting in AMR comes back that with 5% raid buff. Now like to figure out what that would bring CB casting speed down to.

 

Would be nice to also know what Lifeblood + Meta would make CB cast time be every 2min if meta proc during the burst phase of popping DIS and spaming 3+CB

[Liquidsteel 279]

You still use Conflagrate if it means not using it would see you cap at 2 stacks.

 

I feel you're grossly over thinking things. It's pretty simple.

 

1) Do what you want with Haste and Crit, really doesn't matter.

 

2) If running higher Haste, try to avoid Conflagrate under Haste procs, but don't let it cap charges.

 

Simples.

[Nytemare 2]

You still use Conflagrate if it means not using it would see you cap at 2 stacks.

 

I feel you're grossly over thinking things. It's pretty simple.

 

1) Do what you want with Haste and Crit, really doesn't matter.

 

2) If running higher Haste, try to avoid Conflagrate under Haste procs, but don't let it cap charges.

 

Simples.

 

I got that and that what I will train myself to do. Expect under lust when like Zag said doesn't matter. 

 

Now I moved on to wanting to know how to find out CB cast speed and the others while until Lifeblood during DSI burst time. with my current haste. 12.12% is was 2880 turns into under 5% raid haste, so got one part done, now how do I take that combine it with my current haste (30%) to get CB cast time under it?

 

After I get that, I want to see it under LB+Meta (more so I know if I take it how many CB I get off like during a garry pull where adds just stay up for P1 and I can spam CB)

 

I took 2.00 * 24.62% (my current haste self buff) which then get 0.4924. Now retook 2.00 second cast from Incinerate (that what you have on chart) and minus it and got 1.51 sec cast Incinerate. Yet game says it has a 1.61 cast. So unsure what I am missing

Edited August 27, 2014 by Nytemare

[Orthios 272]

I took 2.00 * 24.62% (my current haste self buff) which then get 0.4924. Now retook 2.00 second cast from Incinerate (that what you have on chart) and minus it and got 1.51 sec cast Incinerate. Yet game says it has a 1.61 cast. So unsure what I am missing

What your missing is the equation for cast time.  Cast Time = (Base Cast Time) / (1+Haste)  for your 24.62% haste and incinerate's base cast time of 2.00 seconds, it will look like this for you: Cast Time = (2.00)/(1+.2462) = 1.6049.  WoW rounds this up on the tooltip to say 1.61 seconds.  

 

If you wanted to find the cast time for CB under multiple haste effects, you have to remember that they are multiplicative.  So with Meta, BL/Hero, and Lifeblood, your haste will look like this: Haste = (1.2462 (base))*(1.3(BL/Hero))*(1.3(Meta))*((((2880/425)/100)+1) (Lifeblood)) = 2.2488, or 224.88% haste.

Your CB cast time would then look like this: 3/(3.2488) = 0.923 seconds.  

Edited August 27, 2014 by Orthios

[Nytemare 2]

What your missing is the equation for cast time.  Cast Time = (Base Cast Time) / (1+Haste)  for your 24.62% haste and incinerate's base cast time of 2.00 seconds, it will look like this for you: Cast Time = (2.00)/(1+.2462) = 1.6049.  WoW rounds this up on the tooltip to say 1.61 seconds.  

 

thanks so much. Strange wow would round that up on toolip when we been teached to round down if under 5 so 1.6049 should really be 1.60 not 1.61 lol.

 

So using your example to figure out CB cast time with just Lifeblood + Raid Haste I would do

 

Cast Time = (3.00)/(1+.3085 +.2880) right? 30.85 what I have with 5% raid haste, and LB = 2880

that should equal 1.8791 round to 1.9 Cast speed. Did I do that correctly?

 

to add meta all I got to do is add 30% into correct? so it then reads Cast Time = (3.00)/(1+.3085 +.2880+.30) = 1.6 correct?

Edited August 27, 2014 by Nytemare

[Orthios 272]

So using your example to figure out CB cast time with just Lifeblood + Raid Haste I would do

 

Cast Time = (3.00)/(1+.3085 +.2880) right? 30.85 what I have with 5% raid haste, and LB = 2880

that should equal 1.8791 round to 1.9 Cast speed. Did I do that correctly?

 

to add meta all I got to do is add 30% into correct? so it then reads Cast Time = (3.00)/(1+.3085 +.2880+.30)

Not quite.  First off, Lifeblood adds 2880 Haste Rating.  This in turn translates to (2880/425) = 6.776% haste.  Second, haste buffs are multiplicative, meaning with each haste buff multiplies how much haste you have, not just gets added on.  So, your base haste (with raid buff) of 30.85%, and Lifeblood (6.776% haste) are multiplied together to get (1.3085 (base haste))*(1.06776 (lifeblood)) = 1.39717, or 39.712% haste.  To add meta (or hero/lust) buff, you would then multiply this value by 1.3.  You then take this value as your denominator for calculating cast times.  

[Nytemare 2]

Not quite.  First off, Lifeblood adds 2880 Haste Rating.  This in turn translates to (2880/425) = 6.776% haste.  Second, haste buffs are multiplicative, meaning with each haste buff multiplies how much haste you have, not just gets added on.  So, your base haste (with raid buff) of 30.85%, and Lifeblood (6.776% haste) are multiplied together to get (1.3085 (base haste))*(1.06776 (lifeblood)) = 1.39717, or 39.712% haste.  To add meta (or hero/lust) buff, you would then multiply this value by 1.3.  You then take this value as your denominator for calculating cast times.  

 

how did you get 2880/425? where the 425 coming from? if its the average I get 480 not 425

 

So using what you gave me I would have

 

CB Cast Time  (3.00) / (1.3085 * 1.06776 * 1.30) = 1.65 / 1.7 correct? With Currently Haste(w/raid) + Meta + LB

[Orthios 272]

how did you get 2880/425? where the 425 coming from? if its the average I get 480 not 425

 

So using what you gave me I would have

 

CB Cast Time  (3.00) / (1.3085 * 1.06776 * 1.30) = 1.65 / 1.7 correct? With Currently Haste(w/raid) + Meta + LB

425 is the amount of haste rating you need to get 1% of haste.  Since Lifeblood gives 2880 haste rating, this gets translated into 6.776% of haste.  And yes, with those buffs your CB cast time would be 1.65 seconds.

[Nytemare 2]

425 is the amount of haste rating you need to get 1% of haste.  Since Lifeblood gives 2880 haste rating, this gets translated into 6.776% of haste.  And yes, with those buffs your CB cast time would be 1.65 seconds.

 

without meta just raid buff my CB = 2.292 so 2.29 with Meta that goes to 1.763 so 1.76 and if I take Herb it will get to 1.65

 

2.29 w/ Raid + Self Haste

1.76 w/ Raid+Self Haste + Meta

1.65 w/Raid+Self+Meta+LB

1.27 w/Raid +Self + Meta+LB+Hero 

 

wow that pretty fast CB then

 

 

Meta is always best over the Primal Diamond right? as mention the 3% crit damage bonus = 6% CB damage, so does the Meta still beat that? I assume yes, while waiting for replies I been read lock forums and other sites, and see it mention that Meta is not better then Primal Diamond for Destro.

Edited August 28, 2014 by Nytemare

[Zagam 1,983]

Nyte, you're putting too much of an emphasis on cast times.  Just follow the rules of Destruction with a small caveot of trying not to use Conflagrate while Tempus Repit is up.  It's ok if you do.  Consider it one of those 'final tuning' methods of maximizing your DPS.  Also, use the Primal.  There was a debate about Burning vs Primal Diamond, but overall feelings were that you don't JUST focus on Chaos Bolt.  Mini Bloodlusts are beneficial to lots of things including Immolate, Rain of Fire, Incinerate, and Chaos Bolt casts.

 

Thanks, Orthios, for breaking math down for him. 

[Nytemare 2]

Nyte, you're putting too much of an emphasis on cast times.  Just follow the rules of Destruction with a small caveot of trying not to use Conflagrate while Tempus Repit is up.  It's ok if you do.  Consider it one of those 'final tuning' methods of maximizing your DPS.  Also, use the Primal.  There was a debate about Burning vs Primal Diamond, but overall feelings were that you don't JUST focus on Chaos Bolt.  Mini Bloodlusts are beneficial to lots of things including Immolate, Rain of Fire, Incinerate, and Chaos Bolt casts.

 

Thanks, Orthios, for breaking math down for him. 

 

Yes thanks for helping me. Well I just wanted to get all the ends and outs, so I wanted to know all of this. Yeah been practicing not using Conflag outside in the world when I am rare hunting if I see Meta proc, come my raid this Sat/Sun when we try to push 7/14H by getting DS and General down I can put out little more dps.

 

Yeah I use the Meta gem, have since I got it. Never even crossed my mind that it might not be worth it, figure it was like the cloak, you want it regardless. Then I saw the debate so I asked.

[Nytemare 2]

Which is better as a JC, Pure Int eye, or Pure Mastery Eye? I thinking it since we gem all mastery, so replacing a lesser master one with a big one for what a 320 gain is good?

[Liquidsteel 279]

No, gem intellect because Intellect > Mastery point for point.

 

2x Mastery is better than 1x Intellect, however the JC secondary stat gems don't give double the value of the intellect gems, unlike their regular counterparts.