Subtlety Rogue 7.3

[Damien 1,533]

This thread is for comments about our Subtlety Rogue guide for Legion.

[Guest Ryjhan]

Sub guide seems to be recommending some non-optimal talent choices, at least according to the most current simulationcraft results. Using subterfuge, premeditation, and master of shadows over nightstalker, alacrity, and death from above is going to get you a lot more shadowstrikes over the course of a raid encounter and result in more damage. 

[Neriliel 1]

Good job guys incredible guide as we are used to ! 

I'm a bit disappointed because I was expecting Sub to stay better than Assassination in term of single target DPS and I was attracted by Sub gameplay as well. 

[Guest Tomate]

Thanks for this guide.

I just wandering my self why : "  Gloomblade is actually a DPS loss if you can guarantee that the majority of your  Backstabs will come from behind the target."

Gloomblade is shadow damage so it ignore armor. I log on my beta account and can confirm that Gloomblade does ~25% more damage than backstab. I can understand it's not optimal but I really doubt it's a DPS loss.

[Guest Zarayis]

Hey, I've been practicing this rotation for the past three hours on a target dummy, but I can only sustain 45-47K. (No food/flask/rune, Ilvl 730), Is that around where it should be?

[Guest Luzzt]

Is really versatility in top stat? with so many finishers and the constant use of them, should mastery be giving more damage overall? 

or is it because with no alacrity the will be less finishers to take advantage of mastery? is focusing more on a constant base dagame than micro burst? i was just not specting versatility to top as a stat.

[Guest Reerun]

Hi! Great guide! I did notice one teeny weeny little thing, not to nit pick or anything, but as far as your Tricks macro goes, I always used 

/cast [@Tank's Name] Tricks of the Trade

which does the same thing, you just don't switch targets. Might be a little easier for someone less experienced with macros as well. I will say I haven't raided since the beginning of Cata, but I imagine it would still work. Anyway, good work! The rogue community was very well blessed as far as theorycrafting, etc. back in the EJ days, and it's nice to see someone else grab the reigns and help people out.

[Valks 2,407]

3 minutes ago, Guest Reerun said:

Hi! Great guide! I did notice one teeny weeny little thing, not to nit pick or anything, but as far as your Tricks macro goes, I always used 

/cast [@Tank's Name] Tricks of the Trade

which does the same thing, you just don't switch targets. Might be a little easier for someone less experienced with macros as well. I will say I haven't raided since the beginning of Cata, but I imagine it would still work. Anyway, good work! The rogue community was very well blessed as far as theorycrafting, etc. back in the EJ days, and it's nice to see someone else grab the reigns and help people out.

Thanks for the suggestion about the macro! The current macro allows you to cast Tricks on whatever your mouse is currently hovering over, which means you can put it on any player you wish by just hovering over them in the raid frames or in-game. It's slightly more flexible than a direct target macro on a single player, especially if you have to swap between tanks often.

[Guest 8bitmadness]

I know that Alacrity tends to be the best choice since it improves combo point generation overall, but is there in your opinion any time where Enveloping Shadows will be useful?

[Carrn 284]

5 hours ago, Guest 8bitmadness said:

I know that Alacrity tends to be the best choice since it improves combo point generation overall, but is there in your opinion any time where Enveloping Shadows will be useful?

I'm not convinced that it will be, but maybe in later tiers as we move into Legion. We'll see as time goes on, these sorts of things are updated regularly

[Guest Zed]

The guide mentions to maintain Nightblade only on the primary target. Is it not worth it to apply it onto a second/third target if available/possible, similar to how assassination does with rupture?

[Guest Snowstone]

Hey.

Night elves used to have an advantage whit the old sub spec. We could use our racial shadowmeld for a free ambush that allowed us 10 more secs of find weakness every 2 mins.

This advantage isn't totally gone though. We can still use shadowmeld to cast shadowstrike whitout being into vanish or Shadow dance.

I guess it gives the race a little advantage over the other races but nothing big. Maybe it is worth to be pointed out into your guild?

And while i'm at it, thank you for this guide!

[Guest Veinøm@Hyjal]

Hi,

i would like to use one key for bacsktab and shadowstrike, so I tried to play with this macro :

#showtooltip

/cast [stance:0] backstab

/cast [stance:1/2/3] shadowstrike

It doesn't work with shadowdance (stance:3 before Legion pre-patch) because it's not a stance anymore...any idea ?

 

Anyway, thanks for your very complete guide

[Carrn 284]

3 hours ago, Guest Veinøm@Hyjal said:

Hi,

i would like to use one key for bacsktab and shadowstrike, so I tried to play with this macro :

#showtooltip

/cast [stance:0] backstab

/cast [stance:1/2/3] shadowstrike

It doesn't work with shadowdance (stance:3 before Legion pre-patch) because it's not a stance anymore...any idea ?

 

Anyway, thanks for your very complete guide

I don't think it's possible anymore. You should try: /cast [mod:shift] Shadowstrike; Backstab

That will use the same button but you'll have to hit shift. Blizzard doesn't allow for scripting based off what buffs you have - if you would like to have an easier way of knowing when Shadow Dance is available and / or active, you can look at using an addon such as Weakauras which can help track things such as Shadow Dance, and help you know when to SS and when to BS

 

[Guest Bazdouf]

Hi, 

I was just wondering about a nightstalker/anticipation/enveloping shadows/DfA where you would be casting 2 eviscerate/dfa during shadow dance and though net you a max 30 s cd on shadow dance, and enveloping shadow might generate a bit less CP but it gives you one more finisher to reduce shadow dance cd. Would it be viable ? i don't have a lot of time to play right now, and it might get better when legion launch because of Bleeding Hollow Toxin Vessel.

Thanks !

[Bazdouf 0]

On 22/07/2016 at 10:21 PM, Furty said:

Obviously you are free to choose whatever talents you want if you just want to mess around or try fun builds, but that will result in a pretty major DPS loss. 

Even with an full artifact ? Or is enveloping shadows really that weak without a mastery scaling

Cause i like the anticipation/nightstalker combo, so maybe with master of shadows and alacrity/premeditation ?

[Bazdouf 0]

1 minute ago, Furty said:

Even at 110 it falls noticeably behind the other talent options.

okay, thanks for the quick response !

[Guest Blayke]

Quick question on trinkets.  I noticed that Soul Capacitor isn't even mentioned here.   I assume that's because the "explosion" no longer grants a damage bonus? 

Would the Chipped Soul Prism be a suitable replacement?   How about the heirloom trinket?  I noticed that's also not mentioned here but I thought I'd get your opinion on that while I'm here.  :) 

To be honest, I really don't want to craft a max level philosopher's stone this late in the expac.

Thanks for your help!

[Guest Blayke]

Thank you for such a quick response.  Just one more question about this, if I may.

According to my in game tooltip, it's still exploding for about a 24% damage bonus.  But in my armory, the tooltip reads 100.3% damage, which is basically no damage at all.   But I also understand  that the armory is kind of broken, although i don't know if that applies to the gear tooltips as well.

So, I'm just wondering which is correct.  Again, thanks for you help

[Guest Fitse]

Hi. First of all, thanks for your great work on your rogue guides, I really appreciate the effort. I was reading the changes to your outlaw-guide today and noticed the explanation for not enchanting Mark of Shadowmoon on both weapons due to ICD-triggering on both weapons. Wouldn't the same apply to subtlety and therefor crit should be chosen as 2nd enchantment for weapons? Hopefully I didn't miss something obvious ^^

[Guest Bulooka]

What is better - not capping your combo points or dumping 4 GCDs into shadowstrike? Is there a situation where I would do one or the other? A bit confused

[Rupio 0]

In the Tier 2 (Level 30) Talents section you mention Nightstalker as a 'good choice' (but not the best).

I been using it during leveling and also developed my playstyle (energy management etc) around it. Any idea how much of a loss it is compared to Subterfuge ? 

Or better stated: is the difference between the two talents big enough to adjust to a new playstyle?

 

[Carrn 284]

I think it is, but it's really a personal choice. We're at the end of the expansion, and things will change as we head into the new one. Being flexible and able to adapt is a good skill to have, so I'd recommend at least practicing it

 

[Guest luQ]

On 7/19/2016 at 2:46 AM, Furty said:

Don't worry dude, it will definitely take over later in Legion! Assassination doesn't scale very well since Mastery doesn't affect your Bleeds at all and Haste doesn't have much value to begin with. Subtlety on the other hand scales extraordinarily well and I would expect it to be dominant in Nighthold or the tier after!

What would you recommend? I'm fairly new to rogue and want to play it in Legion but I don't know if I can put enough time in it to level 2 artefact weapons could I go directly with sub or does it falls to far behind assa dps in the first tier?

[Guest venomhunter amanthul]

Opening sequence (pre pull) is incorrect and needs to be corrected.

() = more realistic

13(14) sec befor pull -> Symbol of Death

3.5(4) sec befor pull -> refresh Symbol of Death

45 sec refresh - 3.5(4) sec = 41.5(41) sec instead of 35 sec symbol of death on pull with full energy

additionaly you need to do the exact math but 2 or 3 times Shadowstrike with a following 5 cp nightblade during Subterfuge before entering shadowdance seems extremely beneficial to me as you mostly end up with full energy after using shadowdance.