Subtlety Rogue 7.3

[Carrn 284]

30 minutes ago, demonardvark said:

might main sub just because I hate doing trash XD

No arguments here, I've been Sub for the last 11 years :P

[pkiller162 0]

Hey Furty, thanks for the guide! :D

There's 2 things I don't quite understand here, maybe you could help clarify?

Your opening rotation starts the following way:

Quote

 

1. Use your Draenic Agility Potion right before the pull.

2. Cast Symbols of Death and immediately Shadowstrike.

3. Activate Shadow Blades and any on-use trinkets or racials.

4. Enter Shadow Dance.

 

Running this with the Subterfuge talent means you are still in stealth when you reach step 4. My question is, are we still meant to activate SD while already in stealth and missing out on an extra 3 seconds of Shadowstriking?

My second question is the hfc 2pc increases vanish damage by 30%, should this ability not fit into the opener at all? 

Thanks again Furty! :)

[Furty 51]

On 8/17/2016 at 8:59 PM, pkiller162 said:

Hey Furty, thanks for the guide! :D

There's 2 things I don't quite understand here, maybe you could help clarify?

Your opening rotation starts the following way:

Running this with the Subterfuge talent means you are still in stealth when you reach step 4. My question is, are we still meant to activate SD while already in stealth and missing out on an extra 3 seconds of Shadowstriking?

My second question is the hfc 2pc increases vanish damage by 30%, should this ability not fit into the opener at all? 

Thanks again Furty! :)

Yeah, as before the patch you should vanish when the ring is popped :) Per the other point you should try and get as many shadowstrikes in as possible so start with subterfuge and pop vanish when the ring activates, and follow with Shadow Dance. Thankfully this ring craziness is over pretty soon :D

[Guest Cluey]

I'm confused, I've read through this as I've neglected my rogue for a whole expansion.

In part 3.1 is states,

Deeper Stratagem, the preferred Tier 3 talent 

However back in the talent section is says,

 Vigor is currently the best choice overall, as it helps significantly with pooling and has fantastic synergy with

So which is it?

[Furty 51]

2 hours ago, Guest Cluey said:

I'm confused, I've read through this as I've neglected my rogue for a whole expansion.

In part 3.1 is states,

 

 

However back in the talent section is says,

 

 

So which is it?

Vigor if you have the 4-set and class trinket. Some of the confusion is due to the ring and prepatch and varying levels of gear causing different talent choices to be favored. Given that prepatch is basically over this inconsistency should subside on Legion launch :)

[Guest Cluey]

6 hours ago, Furty said:

Vigor if you have the 4-set and class trinket. Some of the confusion is due to the ring and prepatch and varying levels of gear causing different talent choices to be favored. Given that prepatch is basically over this inconsistency should subside on Legion launch :)

Well as my rogue has been neglected I've got, or I'll have when I get to 100, invasion gear.

Although I don't think pre-patch situation changes much, in that last section you say that "Deeper Stratagem, the preferred Tier 3 talent " but on the talent page it has an X in it.

[Guest Dachdegger]

Hello Furty,

First i want to thank you for the really nice guide. It helped me with the new changes a lot.

As i played the spec for a while now i want ask you to check/try the following opener sequence if you have the time, as i think that involving vanish into the opener increases the dmg output for the first 10 seconds with the ring by alot.

1. Draenic Agility Potion right before the pull.

2. Symbols of Death and immediately Shadowstrike.

3. Activate Shadow Blades and any on-use trinkets or racials/Ring.

4. Shadowstrike + Nightblade

5. Vanish + Shadowstrike spams, dump CD after subterforge ends.

6. Enter Shadow Dance.

 

I thank you in advance.

[Furty 51]

18 hours ago, Guest Dachdegger said:

Hello Furty,

First i want to thank you for the really nice guide. It helped me with the new changes a lot.

As i played the spec for a while now i want ask you to check/try the following opener sequence if you have the time, as i think that involving vanish into the opener increases the dmg output for the first 10 seconds with the ring by alot.

1. Draenic Agility Potion right before the pull.

2. Symbols of Death and immediately Shadowstrike.

3. Activate Shadow Blades and any on-use trinkets or racials/Ring.

4. Shadowstrike + Nightblade

5. Vanish + Shadowstrike spams, dump CD after subterforge ends.

6. Enter Shadow Dance.

 

I thank you in advance.

Not going to be updating this at all for the prepatch anymore since there's less than a week of prepatch left. 

[Jhust 0]

Hey there, I've been a main Rogue throughout WoD (Was assassination on lvl up, later changed it to Subtlety because of the stat scales while keeping combat (now known by Outlaws) in off spec for multi-target fights.) That being said, I mastered the Rogue class, well, that is before 7.0.

Now I have many doubts, since my build used to consist in Multistrike. Now that that stat is gone, I really have doubts on what to build it. After 7.0, with the same gear, I have 74% Mastery and 34%crit (Unbuffed) being those my main stats atm.

I come to Icy Veins for help, cause its the forum I trust mostly, and I find that Versatility is the top stat after Agility. How can that be? and why? 

I get that Versatility would increase your DPS on CD's downphase, by increasing Backstab's damage, other than that I dont really get the why is Versa a main stat on pve.

Here is my armory -> http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/frostmane/Kayel/advanced

Edited August 28, 2016 by Jhust
Forgot to add proof to solidify my question

[Furty 51]

On 8/27/2016 at 8:48 PM, Jhust said:

Hey there, I've been a main Rogue throughout WoD (Was assassination on lvl up, later changed it to Subtlety because of the stat scales while keeping combat (now known by Outlaws) in off spec for multi-target fights.) That being said, I mastered the Rogue class, well, that is before 7.0.

Now I have many doubts, since my build used to consist in Multistrike. Now that that stat is gone, I really have doubts on what to build it. After 7.0, with the same gear, I have 74% Mastery and 34%crit (Unbuffed) being those my main stats atm.

I come to Icy Veins for help, cause its the forum I trust mostly, and I find that Versatility is the top stat after Agility. How can that be? and why? 

I get that Versatility would increase your DPS on CD's downphase, by increasing Backstab's damage, other than that I dont really get the why is Versa a main stat on pve.

Here is my armory -> http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/frostmane/Kayel/advanced

It scales with the most things, basically. 

[Guest Dachdegger]

Hey Furty,

I would like to ask which Spec you would recommend to play in Legion. As you wrote earlier you said subtlety but in this video drybear recommend assasination.

 

 

[Carrn 284]

4 hours ago, Guest Dachdegger said:

Hey Furty,

I would like to ask which Spec you would recommend to play in Legion. As you wrote earlier you said subtlety but in this video drybear recommend assasination.

This isn't the proper thread for a question like this. You're welcome to come visit us over at the Rogue Forums, but the discussion on the Sub guide isn't a good place to ask this sort of thing since this entire thread is Sub-specific.

[Guest Fluffy fufu]

Hello Furty,

 

In the rotation section, Goremaw's bite is after entering shadow dance if 2 or more charges, and before dumping CP with eviscerate. My question is why Goremaw's bite is not before entering shadow dance (assuming you're not already in shadow dance, of course). While at 2 charges of SD, if you're at 1, 2 (or 3 CP if deeper stratagem), you can use GB, eventually fill with backstab until 5 CP, and eviscerate, for very little energy cost with all the energy refunds. Thus dumping CP for free before activating SD?

I feel like pooling to enter SD at 2 charges could delay too much GB if it's after entering SD in the priority.

 

Also even if Eviscerate if after GB in the rotation, we should still get to 5 CP and dump them with less than 3 CP available when GB comes off-CD, right?

 

And at last, you said than Vigor is not far behind Deeper Stratagem, but now that the artefact gives even more energy and CP regeneration, the extra energy provided by vigor is not of much use while extra available CP becomes more interesting (with premeditation, Shadow Blades and some artefact stuff, some SS can generate 4 CP alone!).

 

Thank you for the guide, It's of much help !

[Strayhand 0]

I don't understand why the suggested talents changed for Deeper Stratagem and Marked for Death. Without Vigor you cannot do 4 Shadowstrikes in a Shadow Dance, and Master of Shadows is 30 energy every Shadow Dance.

[Guest Cosmo]

Yeah these talents suck. I've switched to these and barely pull 80k dps.
With my own I was at 150k+ dps.

Please fix.
My personal talents were:
Master of Sub
Subter
Vigor
Elusiv
Strike from Shadows/Prey of the weak
Prem
Master of Shadows

[Carrn 284]

8 hours ago, Guest Cosmo said:

Yeah these talents suck. I've switched to these and barely pull 80k dps.
With my own I was at 150k+ dps.

Please fix.
My personal talents were:
Master of Sub
Subter
Vigor
Elusiv
Strike from Shadows/Prey of the weak
Prem
Master of Shadows

You're always welcome to play whatever talent setup you like. However, these optimal talent setups are obtained by running simulations and testing different variations until we find the best ones for a given situation, and these are what we recommend

 

[Furty 51]

15 hours ago, Guest Cosmo said:

Yeah these talents suck. I've switched to these and barely pull 80k dps.
With my own I was at 150k+ dps.

Please fix.
My personal talents were:
Master of Sub
Subter
Vigor
Elusiv
Strike from Shadows/Prey of the weak
Prem
Master of Shadows

These are the same talents except for Vigor(?)

Deeper Stratagem favors better/skillful play while Vigor is easier for new players. If you're not an experienced or talented player you'll probably get better results with Vigor.

[Guest ishänku]

In your Artifact trait build path, you do realize that you need the Artifact at level 16 to get to Akaari's Soul. Why is it your first Golden Trait  then? Does the Trait itself weight out the delay in getting your first Golden Trait & having 2x Dodge Traits which dont help you much in PvE environments? Why not just go the Finality route for your first Golden Trait (FB, EoD, PS, DK, Finality) which gets you your first Golden Trait at Artifact Level 12.
Since after level 13 the cost for a level rises exponential.

[Furty 51]

12 hours ago, Guest ishänku said:

In your Artifact trait build path, you do realize that you need the Artifact at level 16 to get to Akaari's Soul. Why is it your first Golden Trait  then? Does the Trait itself weight out the delay in getting your first Golden Trait & having 2x Dodge Traits which dont help you much in PvE environments? Why not just go the Finality route for your first Golden Trait (FB, EoD, PS, DK, Finality) which gets you your first Golden Trait at Artifact Level 12.
Since after level 13 the cost for a level rises exponential.

The listed route provides the highest damage, that's why : ) 

[MountainDewed 0]

Hi, I was wondering if you could help me out while I'm trying to get down this rotation for the first time(Played a while but never learned(truly) how). The problem is if/when I mess up and am out of the stealth and/or bonus combo points, accidentally run my energy down to zero. Is there a good way to recover from this? I know there can be many scenarios, such as what spells are on cooldown, which aren't and how many are in the mob and such. I am truly doing better, having more fun since I am starting to understand this some and want to thank the person(s) that write the guide(s)!

[Carrn 284]

10 hours ago, MountainDewed said:

Hi, I was wondering if you could help me out while I'm trying to get down this rotation for the first time(Played a while but never learned(truly) how). The problem is if/when I mess up and am out of the stealth and/or bonus combo points, accidentally run my energy down to zero. Is there a good way to recover from this? I know there can be many scenarios, such as what spells are on cooldown, which aren't and how many are in the mob and such. I am truly doing better, having more fun since I am starting to understand this some and want to thank the person(s) that write the guide(s)!

If you're looking for help with your rotation, please come visit us on the Rogue Forums. This thread is for feedback and comments about the guide

[Guest MightyPotatoMan]

On 7/18/2016 at 5:43 PM, Furty said:

Our listed talents will definitely provide more burst during *ring* and during procs. When using *Bleeding Hollow Toxin Vessel*, those talents can actually be quite potent.

Please update for Legion, those items are irrelevent now and builds around them are not only pointless but harm an average user comming to the site for few quick tips

[Guest Smoker]

For my Sub rogue 846 stat weight in simcraft:    Agi (1.00) > Mastery(0.68) > Haste(0.60) ~= Vers(0.60) > Crit(0.55)

Can check after update armory link

 

 

[Carrn 284]

22 hours ago, Guest MightyPotatoMan said:

Please update for Legion, those items are irrelevent now and builds around them are not only pointless but harm an average user comming to the site for few quick tips

The guide is updated, but the entire thread is not and won't be. That comment is almost 2 months old, and not relevant anymore

[Carrn 284]

22 minutes ago, Guest Smoker said:

For my Sub rogue 846 stat weight in simcraft:    Agi (1.00) > Mastery(0.68) > Haste(0.60) ~= Vers(0.60) > Crit(0.55)

Can check after update armory link

 

 

Sounds about right to me. Everybody's will be a little bit different though, based on what gear you already have