Subtlety Rogue 7.3

[Furty 51]

12 hours ago, Guest Smoker said:

For my Sub rogue 846 stat weight in simcraft:    Agi (1.00) > Mastery(0.68) > Haste(0.60) ~= Vers(0.60) > Crit(0.55)

Can check after update armory link

 

 

Vers gets better with item level. Generally the reason I'm reluctant to supply stat weights is because they obviously change with levels of each stat due to stat synergy/discord & depending on your currently available items or trinkets it could also have a major effect on the values themselves. Your personal stat weights have little bearing on the overall stat priority and the weights provided are merely there as a guideline for the legions of people begging for pawn imports or what have you.

[Guest Lanre]

Hello, a question about the Finality trait. From what I understand every other Nightblade will be empowered based on how many combo points we used on the previous Nightblade. To be precise, its a 4% increase per combo point, so a 24% extra damage Nightblade when using 6 combo points.

The question is if it is worthwhile to cast a 6 combo point Nightblade to get the 24% extra damage buff and to cast immediately after (as soon as possible) another 6 combo point empowered Nightblade. The duration is very long so the 24% extra damage might be worth it. So basically the first Nightblade is only to get the buff, the second is the 'real' Nightblade.

[Carrn 284]

7 hours ago, Guest Lanre said:

Hello, a question about the Finality trait. From what I understand every other Nightblade will be empowered based on how many combo points we used on the previous Nightblade. To be precise, its a 4% increase per combo point, so a 24% extra damage Nightblade when using 6 combo points.

The question is if it is worthwhile to cast a 6 combo point Nightblade to get the 24% extra damage buff and to cast immediately after (as soon as possible) another 6 combo point empowered Nightblade. The duration is very long so the 24% extra damage might be worth it. So basically the first Nightblade is only to get the buff, the second is the 'real' Nightblade.

No, you'd be wasting a huge amount of combo points to do that

[Areanas 0]

On 7/18/2016 at 11:09 AM, Guest Ryjhan said:

Sub guide seems to be recommending some non-optimal talent choices, at least according to the most current simulationcraft results. Using subterfuge, premeditation, and master of shadows over nightstalker, alacrity, and death from above is going to get you a lot more shadowstrikes over the course of a raid encounter and result in more damage. 

Elusiveness is a dps loss. Vigor is also a loss since in aoe situations - one SS should give sufficient cp generation and artifact talents can improve some of the damage. Since relentless strikes refunds most of the energy use, alacrity seems poor in design unless artifact talents increase cp to the point they cant be used fast enough. Marked for death also seems horrible since  it used to pair with DFA. Night Stalker w/ DFA doesn't seen a bad pick on a movement fight. Forgetting to apply symbols of death at the right moment seems the biggest loss with any of the choices. Master of shadows can help soak the cost when the Artifact weapon cannot. Or give a crimson vial when needed. (i find myself using the weapon when running out of charges for dance)

[Carrn 284]

10 hours ago, Areanas said:

Elusiveness is a dps loss. Vigor is also a loss since in aoe situations - one SS should give sufficient cp generation and artifact talents can improve some of the damage. Since relentless strikes refunds most of the energy use, alacrity seems poor in design unless artifact talents increase cp to the point they cant be used fast enough. Marked for death also seems horrible since  it used to pair with DFA. Night Stalker w/ DFA doesn't seen a bad pick on a movement fight. Forgetting to apply symbols of death at the right moment seems the biggest loss with any of the choices. Master of shadows can help soak the cost when the Artifact weapon cannot. Or give a crimson vial when needed. (i find myself using the weapon when running out of charges for dance)

That comment is from 2 months ago, no need to resurrect it

[Guest Valyr]

Hello, I've skimmed through the pages but haven't found the explanation to why you'd want to wait for 2 stacks of of shadow dance before using it. 

You're basically saying that in the whole encounter (let's say mythic dungeons), if my vanish is down and only have 1 stack of dance, it's better for me to spam bs as combo builder instead of using that dance? Is there some extra cd it causes if we run out of stacks? 

[Carrn 284]

8 hours ago, Guest Valyr said:

Hello, I've skimmed through the pages but haven't found the explanation to why you'd want to wait for 2 stacks of of shadow dance before using it. 

You're basically saying that in the whole encounter (let's say mythic dungeons), if my vanish is down and only have 1 stack of dance, it's better for me to spam bs as combo builder instead of using that dance? Is there some extra cd it causes if we run out of stacks? 

It's more about efficiency

SD has 3 charges total, and you want to avoid capping these charges (ie: wasting time that SD is cooling down). When you play to avoid capping a resource (charges) instead of using all of it that's available, you're able to save charges for when they matter most (an extended burst window)

[Jazzer 0]

I'd like to suggest a revisit to the T4 talent Soothing Darkness due to the way it's currently working.

Right now, the talent turns your shadow dance into a 30% (18% without Subterfuge) heal. It looks like the pseudo-stealth state that shadow dance places you in triggers the talent, along with the shadow dance buff itself. This is probably unintended, but I figured I'd point it out, because it basically turns shadow dance into another crimson vial.

Certainly worth consideration considering how frequently we get to use shadow dance.

[Carrn 284]

39 minutes ago, Jazzer said:

I'd like to suggest a revisit to the T4 talent Soothing Darkness due to the way it's currently working.

Right now, the talent turns your shadow dance into a 30% (18% without Subterfuge) heal. It looks like the pseudo-stealth state that shadow dance places you in triggers the talent, along with the shadow dance buff itself. This is probably unintended, but I figured I'd point it out, because it basically turns shadow dance into another crimson vial.

Certainly worth consideration considering how frequently we get to use shadow dance.

It's not that Soothing Darkness is a bad talent, as much as the other 2 options are very strong. Elusiveness turns Feint into a skill that, for ever other class, is on a 3 minute cooldown. Cheat Death is also as useful as it has always been - a "get out of death free" card that covers your ass in the event that you fuck something up and would normally die.

[Jazzer 0]

Cheat Death is certainly a great choice, but Elusiveness seems a lot more situationally useful than Soothing Darkness.

Feint without the talent is already 50% less from AE attacks, so unless I'm forgetting something, Elusiveness is really only helpful on those random target abilities that you can react to, and even in those cases, those abilities don't typically one-shot, which makes that extra healing from Soothing Darkness seem just as useful in those situations. You'd have to take 100% of your hp in damage from a single-target ability with feint up to prevent as much damage as 1 shadow dance with Soothing Darkness will heal. And feint costs energy.

Maybe I'm missing something? To be fair, I've been out of the raid game for a couple years, but I still never got sick of running theory on various talents and whatnot.

[Carrn 284]

2 hours ago, Jazzer said:

Cheat Death is certainly a great choice, but Elusiveness seems a lot more situationally useful than Soothing Darkness.

Feint without the talent is already 50% less from AE attacks, so unless I'm forgetting something, Elusiveness is really only helpful on those random target abilities that you can react to, and even in those cases, those abilities don't typically one-shot, which makes that extra healing from Soothing Darkness seem just as useful in those situations. You'd have to take 100% of your hp in damage from a single-target ability with feint up to prevent as much damage as 1 shadow dance with Soothing Darkness will heal. And feint costs energy.

Maybe I'm missing something? To be fair, I've been out of the raid game for a couple years, but I still never got sick of running theory on various talents and whatnot.

I think the biggest difference is that Shadow Dance isn't used as a defensive skill, and shouldn't be. We have defensive skills (Feint, Evasion, Cloak, CV) that can be used to avoid almost any kind of damage

Sure, the healing is nice - like I said it's not a bad talent. It's more that timing SD to be used with a time where you need healing isn't an optimal use of the skill, whereas Feint and CD are both defensive skills that get used as defensive skills.

You could make the argument that it's a passive heal that will sometimes be a benefit, which is true. However, it's exactly that which is the issue with the talent: you will sometimes get good use out of it, but not regularly 

[Jazzer 0]

That's a fair point. Though I wasn't suggesting we use shadow dance as a defensive skill, it's just that it ends up being used more than once per minute, which ends up being quite a bit of passive healing in the end.

I guess my main point is that the passive healing is of some benefit in every situation, whereas Elusiveness doesn't do anything unless there are single-target abilities that Elusiveness works with.

Cheat Death is indisputably great for any situation. I simply question the general usefulness of Elusiveness given the niche nature of it. The majority of stuff you're going to take damage from in a raid is AoE abilities, which Elusiveness does nothing for. For those times when a rogue gets singled out and hit with a bunch of single-target damage it's fantastic, but so is Cheat Death. So where really is the use for Elusiveness?

I feel like Cheat Death is great for fights when the damage to the raid is spiky and unpredictable or we want to soak a mechanic with it, Soothing Darkness is great for fights with damage that is heavy and consistent raid-wide, and Elusiveness could be great for certain situations, though I've not been able to find a good example of when it would be a good talent to have.

[Furty 51]

5 hours ago, Jazzer said:

That's a fair point. Though I wasn't suggesting we use shadow dance as a defensive skill, it's just that it ends up being used more than once per minute, which ends up being quite a bit of passive healing in the end.

I guess my main point is that the passive healing is of some benefit in every situation, whereas Elusiveness doesn't do anything unless there are single-target abilities that Elusiveness works with.

Cheat Death is indisputably great for any situation. I simply question the general usefulness of Elusiveness given the niche nature of it. The majority of stuff you're going to take damage from in a raid is AoE abilities, which Elusiveness does nothing for. For those times when a rogue gets singled out and hit with a bunch of single-target damage it's fantastic, but so is Cheat Death. So where really is the use for Elusiveness?

I feel like Cheat Death is great for fights when the damage to the raid is spiky and unpredictable or we want to soak a mechanic with it, Soothing Darkness is great for fights with damage that is heavy and consistent raid-wide, and Elusiveness could be great for certain situations, though I've not been able to find a good example of when it would be a good talent to have.

If you're not going to use Elusiveness for a fight, the only other competitive option is Cheat for raiding.

[Guest Errorsol]

Good guide - I feel like Deeper Stratagem is best suited for after we get our legendary boots though, because even with 2 energetic stabbing relics, I often fail to get 4 Shadow Strikes into 1 SD because i miss out on energy refunding. As a result, I've still found decent success in running with Vigor.

I mean, is it worth occasionally dropping a Shadow Strike? The 700 to 900k Eviscerate crits are pretty nice, but I feel it's at the cost of less Shadow Strikes.

[Guest Tsuid]

Hey what is your expected single target dps with a 840-45 gear ? I'm currently around 200k dps with a full Vers/Crit oriented 845 gear.

 

I feel like i'm struggling to get the "perfect" cycle and often get only 3 shadowstrikes despite a decent energy pooling. I've been told Outlaw could deal a solid 240k dps, even better when it comes to cleave / multi target boss encounters.

I've seen an Assassination rogue dealing pretty insane dps on pure single target bosses (around 250/80k dps, cant remember)

 

My question is what am i doing wrong ? First i should probably swap out Deeper Instagram for Vigor to fix the "only 3 SS" issue but it cannot explain the 50k dps loss, there has to be something else, i do feel like Sub has the potential to outdps / match other specs...

[Carrn 284]

2 hours ago, Guest Tsuid said:

Hey what is your expected single target dps with a 840-45 gear ? I'm currently around 200k dps with a full Vers/Crit oriented 845 gear.

 

I feel like i'm struggling to get the "perfect" cycle and often get only 3 shadowstrikes despite a decent energy pooling. I've been told Outlaw could deal a solid 240k dps, even better when it comes to cleave / multi target boss encounters.

I've seen an Assassination rogue dealing pretty insane dps on pure single target bosses (around 250/80k dps, cant remember)

 

My question is what am i doing wrong ? First i should probably swap out Deeper Instagram for Vigor to fix the "only 3 SS" issue but it cannot explain the 50k dps loss, there has to be something else, i do feel like Sub has the potential to outdps / match other specs...

Can't help you with what you're doing wrong if you aren't able to show some kind of Combat Log for us to look at.

If you can grab a couple logs for us to look at, come on over to the Rogue Forums and post them there for us to look at, and we can help you figure out exactly where you can improve

[Carrn 284]

2 hours ago, Guest Errorsol said:

Good guide - I feel like Deeper Stratagem is best suited for after we get our legendary boots though, because even with 2 energetic stabbing relics, I often fail to get 4 Shadow Strikes into 1 SD because i miss out on energy refunding. As a result, I've still found decent success in running with Vigor.

I mean, is it worth occasionally dropping a Shadow Strike? The 700 to 900k Eviscerate crits are pretty nice, but I feel it's at the cost of less Shadow Strikes.

How much energy are you starting Shadow Dance with?

[Guest Dachdegger]

Hey folks, i have a question about the energy generation.

Sometimes i cast evis or nightblade i get an amount of 70 energy back and i dont know where those come from. I know to get 40 energy back when i have 5+ cp due to relentless strike.

Does some1 know where those energy coming from?

[Carrn 284]

9 hours ago, Guest Dachdegger said:

Hey folks, i have a question about the energy generation.

Sometimes i cast evis or nightblade i get an amount of 70 energy back and i dont know where those come from. I know to get 40 energy back when i have 5+ cp due to relentless strike.

Does some1 know where those energy coming from?

My only real guess is that you might be getting 30 back from entering Shadow Dance due to the Master of Shadows talent.

You might also be getting it back from Goremaw's Bite or Enveloping Shadows (if you've taken that talent)

[Guest Dachdegger]

Hello Carrn,

The point is, i dont get into stealh/sd when i cast either nightblade or evis.

I am in stealth, generating 6 cp with either 2 ss or 3 depends if shadow blades are active. Then i cast Nightblade or evis and i get back ~70 energy back. Even when goremaws is on cd and not active atm.

Enveloping shadows generates CP not energy, and neither i´ve skilled it.

Might it be some kind of bug of relentless strike?

[Carrn 284]

1 hour ago, Guest Dachdegger said:

Hello Carrn,

The point is, i dont get into stealh/sd when i cast either nightblade or evis.

I am in stealth, generating 6 cp with either 2 ss or 3 depends if shadow blades are active. Then i cast Nightblade or evis and i get back ~70 energy back. Even when goremaws is on cd and not active atm.

Enveloping shadows generates CP not energy, and neither i´ve skilled it.

Might it be some kind of bug of relentless strike?

Without Combat Logs or anything to see what's happening, I can't really say what would be causing that 

Have you perhaps taken the Weaponmaster talent? Maybe some bug with that double strike is causing Relentless Strikes to trigger twice? I don't know. You should submit a bug report, or at the very least try and figure out exactly what scenarios it occurs in

[Smoker 0]

4 hours ago, Guest Dachdegger said:

Hello Carrn,

The point is, i dont get into stealh/sd when i cast either nightblade or evis.

I am in stealth, generating 6 cp with either 2 ss or 3 depends if shadow blades are active. Then i cast Nightblade or evis and i get back ~70 energy back. Even when goremaws is on cd and not active atm.

Enveloping shadows generates CP not energy, and neither i´ve skilled it.

Might it be some kind of bug of relentless strike?

Relentless Strikes have 20% chance per cp to generate 40 energy:
100% +40 energy for 5cp and 20% chance +40 energy for 6th cp, Sometimes +80 energy totally.

P.s. I have Flickering Shadows trait, i must stop the attacks for 3sec to enter into vanish in pve ofc? 

[Carrn 284]

1 hour ago, Smoker said:

Relentless Strikes have 20% chance per cp to generate 40 energy:
100% +40 energy for 5cp and 20% chance +40 energy for 6th cp, Sometimes +80 energy totally.

P.s. I have Flickering Shadows trait, i must stop the attacks for 3sec to enter into vanish in pve ofc? 

I didn't think it worked that way, but I guess that makes sense. Interesting.

And yes, you can't do any damage in order for Vanish to activate

[Smoker 0]

1 hour ago, Carrn said:

I didn't think it worked that way, but I guess that makes sense. Interesting.

And yes, you can't do any damage in order for Vanish to activate

It's work 100%, u can check :)

p.s. U didnt understand me, whats better: 3 sec attack or spend all energy -> stop attack and w8 vanish?

[Eudee 0]

It says you want us to run Deeper Stratagem, but you also want us to be able to get at least 4 shadowstrikes in during a single shadow dance with subterfuge. Without vigor or alacrity, how do we manage that?