5.4 Changes and Notes as of 7/10

[Khaos 5]

Yeah but... double dark soul? really? that sounds even more stupid OP than DPS vengeance.

[obleak 10]

perhaps.. if it's op it will get nerfed...

[Sifon 25]

Its one extra Dark Soul per fight, you can use 2 Dark Souls at start, after that 2nd charge will never be up assuming its being used on CD. But it would be extra two on fights like Lei Shen with lots of downtime.

[Khaos 5]

It's the fact that you can pool it and use it twice during bloodlust , have ds always ready for jin-rokh , save it in between doors for horridon or have 2 for the burn phase , if used right it's a lot of extra dps.

[JvChequer 43]

Its one extra Dark Soul per fight, you can use 2 Dark Souls at start, after that 2nd charge will never be up assuming its being used on CD. But it would be extra two on fights like Lei Shen with lots of downtime.

Not one extra DS because they work like Hand of Guldan.

[Sifon 25]

Not one extra DS because they work like Hand of Guldan.

Exactly, first DS used on pull, 2nd one is available.

2nd one used 20 seconds after pull, 1st one has 100 seconds cd.

100 seconds later, 120 seconds in fight, 1st one will be available again with 2nd one with full cd.

120 seconds later, 240 seconds in fight, 2nd one will be available with 1st one with full cd.

120 seconds later, 360 seconds in fight, 1st one will be available with 2nd one with full cd.

Do you see the pattern? It is one DS each 2 minutes because if both charges are in cooldown, only one of them recovers. HoG works like the same way, otherwise we could weave HoG every 15 seconds.

[JvChequer 43]

Exactly, first DS used on pull, 2nd one is available.

2nd one used 20 seconds after pull, 1st one has 100 seconds cd.

100 seconds later, 120 seconds in fight, 1st one will be available again with 2nd one with full cd.

120 seconds later, 240 seconds in fight, 2nd one will be available with 1st one with full cd.

120 seconds later, 360 seconds in fight, 1st one will be available with 2nd one with full cd.

Do you see the pattern? It is one DS each 2 minutes because if both charges are in cooldown, only one of them recovers. HoG works like the same way, otherwise we could weave HoG every 15 seconds.

00:00 -> DS "A" used

01:00-> DS "B" used

02:00-> DS "A" comes out CD and can be used again

03:00-> DS "B" comes out CD and can be used again

04:00-> DA A

5 -> DS B

.....

Until the end of time.

Am I wrong?

[obleak 10]

00:00 -> DS "A" used

01:00-> DS "B" used

02:00-> DS "A" comes out CD and can be used again

03:00-> DS "B" comes out CD and can be used again

04:00-> DA A

5 -> DS B

.....

Until the end of time.

Am I wrong?

I don't think so... i mean.. if ones on cd the other is recharging... so...

[Sifon 25]

00:00 -> DS "A" used

01:00-> DS "B" used

02:00-> DS "A" comes out CD and can be used again

03:00-> DS "B" comes out CD and can be used again

04:00-> DA A

5 -> DS B

.....

Until the end of time.

Am I wrong?

Uhmm I guess so, but you cannot do this if you use double DS at start.

[Muoric 3]

Hi all, thought I'd finally make an account and stop just lurking around.

To the actual topic, all other abilities (to my knowledge) that have charges work the way Sifon said. As in you have 2 charges and can use it immediately twice in row, but the first time it comes off cd is at 2 mins, then at 4 mins the next etc. As in it only charges 1 at a time even if you can have a max of 2 charges. So sadly I'd assume you are wrong JvChequer and obleak.

So it's not double the DS, but naturally 1 or 2 more during a fight is always nice. Especially since you can probably use them smarter to hit good timings with other stuff and use the possible downtimes etc.

[Muoric 3]

Uhmm I guess so, but you cannot do this if you use double DS at start.

No, this won't work I'd assume. Since DS "B" won't start recharging until DS "A" has recharged at the 2 minute mark. Meaning it won't be available until the 4 minute mark and then DS "A" starts it recharge.

Naturally this way of doing it is also a possibility, but I'd be way more inclined to assume they don't have that individual charges as this model would assume.

[Sifon 25]

No, this won't work I'd assume. Since DS "B" won't start recharging until DS "A" has recharged at the 2 minute mark. Meaning it won't be available until the 4 minute mark and then DS "A" starts it recharge.

Naturally this way of doing it is also a possibility, but I'd be way more inclined to assume they don't have that individual charges as this model would assume.

Yes! I was trying to get that point but I think I'm just too tired for it.

[JvChequer 43]

If they don't have individual CDs the talent will be a crap, a minor dps gain, less than 3k over the fight, and MF at single target would be way better. Edited July 14, 2013 by JvChequer

[Sifon 25]

If they don't have individual CDs the talent will be a crap, a minor dps gain, less than 3k over the fight, and MF at single target would be way better.

They won't have individual CDs because thats how charge mechanic works, HoG charges doesnt have individual CDs too. And I think it will worth more than 3k when you have Dark Soul on full Bloodlust.

[Muoric 3]

Like I said, none of the other abilities (roll, hog, charge...) with charges have individual charges. They all work so that only one can be charging at a time. So it (sadly? reasonably?) won't probably mean double the DS casts, but it's still going to be way more than 3k. Just not totally out of the roof so in a heavy heavy movement fight you might actually want to get kjc etc. In a standstill single target it'll be the obvious choice, but not for all scenarios.

[Khaos 5]

I don't see demo ever touching KJC again if this is the final form , just think about fights with downtimes or when you need burst for a certain part of a fight , it will be immense.

[Zagam 1,983]

Demonology will be taking Mannoroth's Fury on nearly every fight because of the damage boost and AoE requirements in Siege of Orgrimmar. With the buffs to Fel Flame, almost no one will be taking KJC. It'll either be this new Archimonde talent or MF. KJC will be for people who can't adjust to Fel Flame. Right now, Fel Flame is hitting for almost identical amounts to Incinerate and Shadowbolt. I haven't tested the difference between Fel Flame and Malefic Grasp with the changes, but those will likely be close, too.

[Sifon 25]

Demonology will be taking Mannoroth's Fury on nearly every fight because of the damage boost and AoE requirements in Siege of Orgrimmar. With the buffs to Fel Flame, almost no one will be taking KJC. It'll either be this new Archimonde talent or MF. KJC will be for people who can't adjust to Fel Flame. Right now, Fel Flame is hitting for almost identical amounts to Incinerate and Shadowbolt. I haven't tested the difference between Fel Flame and Malefic Grasp with the changes, but those will likely be close, too.

Someone made MG vs FF theorycraft on MMO-Champ, MG has better base damage + scaling itself and also it procs dots and scales with mastery. I can see Affliction is taking KJC in 5.4 but not Destruction or Demonology.

Also I hate new MF as Demo now, because it only incrases radius and damage of Hellfire/Immolation Aura while Demo AoE rotation contains 5-6 spells, if AoE burst is needed, Affli will be go to spec for 5.4

[Vestion 8]

First thing i thought of when i saw the new arhimode talent was now we wont need to delay imp swarm. So, onr Ds at start like normal, and then when imp swarm comes off CD you can use your second charge for it. This could mean more imp swarms throughout the fight are higher sustained damage.

[Zagam 1,983]

Someone made MG vs FF theorycraft on MMO-Champ, MG has better base damage + scaling itself and also it procs dots and scales with mastery. I can see Affliction is taking KJC in 5.4 but not Destruction or Demonology.

Also I hate new MF as Demo now, because it only incrases radius and damage of Hellfire/Immolation Aura while Demo AoE rotation contains 5-6 spells, if AoE burst is needed, Affli will be go to spec for 5.4

Most of the stuff I saw was concentrated adds that just needed blown up gradually. I agree that it will suck with Shadowflame not benefitting. Not real sure what benefits from it now and won't later other than Hand of Gul'dan/Shadowflame. Removing the amount of damage needed to pop seeds will make Affliction AoE pretty powerful. You'll just put up a SB:SoC and start spamming seeds everywhere. Unfortunately, this won't boost Affliction's single target like it does currently as you won't be swimming in Shards like we do now.

First thing i thought of when i saw the new arhimode talent was now we wont need to delay imp swarm. So, onr Ds at start like normal, and then when imp swarm comes off CD you can use your second charge for it. This could mean more imp swarms throughout the fight are higher sustained damage.

This also means you won't have Dark Soul for the next 1 or 2 Imp Swarms. You speak as if delaying Imp Swarm is a DPS loss. It's not. When Imp Swarm is off CD, you're proccing Imps via Demonic Calling. You're just supposed to line up Imp Swarm with Dark Soul for a DPS gain while they're out. You also don't want to make Imp Swarm the focus of your Dark Soul. Dark Soul is best utilized by your burst available with your Demonic Fury pooling. All of this would need to line up to be most effective.

[Soulzar 42]

If they don't have individual CDs the talent will be a crap, a minor dps gain, less than 3k over the fight, and MF at single target would be way better.

I think you are underestimating the ability to use DS "on cooldown" and always have a charge available for burst, procs, or double ds on hero.

Perfect example from this tier would be Jin'rock, where you'd love to pop DS on the pull.. but need to save it for 50 seconds till the pool is down. You could pop on pull, again in first pool, and first charge should be ready again for second pool.

[Sifon 25]

• Dark Soul: Knowledge Your soul is infused with demonic knowledge, increasing your Mastery by 18,000 the effects of Mastery: Master Demonologist by an additional 30% for 20 sec. Can be cast in Metamorphosis. Warlock - Demonology Spec. 5% of Base Mana. Instant. 2 min cooldown.

Sooo, its not a nerf or buff right? It is still a flat %30 increase on mastery I think.

Edited July 15, 2013 by Sifon

[Khaos 5]

Are they gonna balance our CDs on a talent now? >_>

[Zagam 1,983]

• Dark Soul: Knowledge Your soul is infused with demonic knowledge, increasing your Mastery by 18,000 the effects of Mastery: Master Demonologist by an additional 30% for 20 sec. Can be cast in Metamorphosis. Warlock - Demonology Spec. 5% of Base Mana. Instant. 2 min cooldown.

Sooo, its not a nerf or buff right? It is still a flat %30 increase on mastery I think.

Um, I think. I know that it gives 30% in caster form, but I'm unsure on the multplicative changes with Metamorphosis. I know Meta triple dips in Mastery. The conversion for Demonology is 600 rating = 1% damage for pets/caster form and 3% Metamorphosis damage. 18,000 would be 30% for pets/casters and 90% Metamorphosis. If they're wording it as 30%, I shudder to think it's 30% across the board, thus a 67% nerf to Metamorphosis Dark Soul scaling. That, obviously, would be worst case scenario...doesnt' seem worded that way...

[JvChequer 43]

It's just a fix because of the amplification trinket was scaling with the 18k mastery thing, giving TONS OF DMG/Mastery when both are up.