T16 Warlock Style - Heroic & Mythic

[Omaric 246]

To add to what Zagam has masterfully said there, I would like to say that Affliction is the goods for Garrosh:

 

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-oyd8encywif4e4wo/sum/damageDone/?s=1604&e=1776

 

I'm coming for you 3 million DPS *sunglasses at night*.... I'm coming for you.

 

OK I lied I wasn't adding to what Zagam said, it was just an excuse to link that.  HAPPY FRIDAY! *flee*

[Zagam 1,982]

Psh, who wipes on Garrosh?  Scrub.  AND you're using a Succubus?  hahahahahahhaha...also, does your guild whine that Warlocks are OP since you and your Warlock buddy top every parse?

 

Kidding aside, take a look at the Immerseus 'records.'  All of them are wipe attempts that involved pulling ALL the mobs, AoEing, then dying. 

[Omaric 246]

Lol, like all the adds leading up to Immerseus?

[Zagam 1,982]

No, on Heroic Immerseus, there is a new mechanic that spawns adds...basically, it puts a debuff on the boss with 50 charges.  Each direct hit pulls a charge onto you and deals damage to you overtime that stacks.  the way you're SUPPOSED to do it is have everyone hit him 2-3 times, kill 20-30 mobs, then hit him for the rest of his charges and finish him.  Each charge you pull spawns a mob...my guess, since WoL is recording wipes as record kills, they're just laying into him, aoeing, then dying.

 

The fun part is this data skews the rest.  When people foolishly look at what specs are the best, everyone's data will be skewed because WoL is pulling this garbage info from Immerseus.  If anyone links any raidbots data, I'll link Immerseus and say 'nuff said.

[Omaric 246]

Someone:  See?  And this is why I'm a fire mage, they be toppin' them charts.

 

Us: *Link Immerseus*  Someone...... c'mon. Someone........c'mon.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbXywAHm5lk

 

What we can't embed YouTube vids.....?  C'mon.

[Zagam 1,982]

 

Looks embedded to me, son.

[Omaric 246]

Dude........teach me.

[Soulzar 42]

Are they wiping or is WoL just incorrectly marking the fight as done when he "dies" and transitions?

[Nyanchan 2]

What I do on Heroic Immerseus is Mannoroth's Fury a Rain of Fire on a big pack of adds, flip up Fire and Brimstone, and Immolate, Conflagrate, Incinerate x 3.  Everything disappears, and there's no need to be close to them like Demonology requires.  Demo requires manipulation of your Felguard/Wrathguard as well as relative proximity to accomplish its AoE.  Destro can rock and roll from 40 yards away with quicker, easier to control mechanics, and it's sustainable forever unlike Demonology's ridiculous cost on Void Ray and having to go in and out of Metamorphosis.  Same goes with Sha of Pride.  When you get into Heroic Sha of Pride, you'll realize the necessity for BURST for Corrupted Crystals, Manifestations of Pride, and the smaller adds.  Demonology just CANNOT switch to Manifestations of Pride quickly.  Know what can?  Havoc Sha of Pride, fire off a Chaos Bolt at it, Conflagrate, then fire another Chaos Bolt.  If you can kill the Manifestation of Pride before his second cast, you're essentially removing a mechanic.  When you break people out of the pac-man phase quicker, you're removing a mechanic.  The small adds that come out are not meant to be nuked down...they don't hurt.  Our tanks hold them, so I use Rain of Fire on them to fuel the spamming of Chaos Bolt on Sha.

 

Just as said before, Demo isn't a dead spec...Destruction just offers a TON of utility and uses in a lot of Heroic mechanics.  It's just like Ra-Den...watch the early videos.  Chaos Bolt was the answer to the need to kill the orbs before they reached him. 

 

And Demonology isn't more 'beefy' to survive adds coming.  Meta provides some armor, but you're not going to live like a tank.  Also, if you're pulling aggro, either you're being over-aggressive or your tanks are being too passive.  In terms of survivability, Destro wins HANDS down.  Fel Imp's Cauterize is a hugely overlooked heal, and Ember Tap is just ridiculous when you stack Mastery.  Mine heals me for 275k non-crit and only costs an Ember.  My healers have already recognized on spread out fights like Heroic Immerseus that they can just ignore me for healing purposes.

 

I've already downed sha of pride twice in heroic as demo, and all those mechanics can be handled properly. I don't know why you say that the add cant be handled, i just turn around and start pewpewing he never gets to cast a second time, and even if our other ranged dps forgets about it, my felguard stuns it  just in time, he actually never cast once. I am doing this in 10 man, so that much dps is not necessary, Also for the adds, they just die in a 2 stun rotation with the burst, and I am tanking them because sac shield plus meta allows me to survive a couple of hits without any problema and without them going anywhere (that is part of our strat), which means there is no need for a tank there. All those adds there are nuked in our strat, literally they dont last at all. void raid cost is stupid yes but i usually need 1 or 2 to finish stuff off cuz of the other gigantic burst dps. I am testing destro now, for aoe, but i could do it perfectly fine for sha of pride and immersus as demo. Altho, for immersus voidray is bugged and it gives a stack of that thing if it touches the boss.

 

It just feels that you are saying that my way of using demo for those fights is wrong. Our wipes are mostly because people forgot to close rifts/spread on the pride explosion, since add never casts, people are freed from the pacman before even reaching the first corner, and small adds dont hit/go anywhere.  I think the issue is mainly that for a 25 man group more sustained aoe is needed, however for a 10 man set up, everything has less hp so 1 person doing a bigger burst means adds will die faster. 

 

 

TL,DR:

Basically, In my opinion Demo burst is as good as Destro for stuff that dies fast and being in melee range is ok. H immersus, H sha. Stuff that last long affli rules, H protectors, H Galakras. And Destro is better at things that last moderately long/being at range is better/focus kill is needed, H galakras, H shamans. (I havent downed H shamans yet but in our tries and cuz of our strat only destro seems to be viable)

Edited September 28, 2013 by Nyanchan

[Kazistrasz 216]

The damage you cause with one chaos bolt is more than the damage you cause with two Touches of Chaos. Even if I fire off two Touches and they crit, my minimum chaos bolt with no procs is more. I don't see how you can argue Demo has better burst on short living adds, unless the thing isn't going to live for more than a global (in which case, why are you in flex mode with that a 560 ilvl and why are you even bothering to switch?)

[Nyanchan 2]

The damage you cause with one chaos bolt is more than the damage you cause with two Touches of Chaos. Even if I fire off two Touches and they crit, my minimum chaos bolt with no procs is more. I don't see how you can argue Demo has better burst on short living adds, unless the thing isn't going to live for more than a global (in which case, why are you in flex mode with that a 560 ilvl and why are you even bothering to switch?)

 

Im not talking about those big ones, I am talking about the super small ones that can die with an aoe rotation... of course destro is better at killing those.

[PhilColins 9]

Has it been decided when it's best to use Glyph of Havoc?

[Zagam 1,982]

I've already downed sha of pride twice in heroic as demo, and all those mechanics can be handled properly. I don't know why you say that the add cant be handled, i just turn around and start pewpewing he never gets to cast a second time, and even if our other ranged dps forgets about it, my felguard stuns it  just in time, he actually never cast once. I am doing this in 10 man, so that much dps is not necessary, Also for the adds, they just die in a 2 stun rotation with the burst, and I am tanking them because sac shield plus meta allows me to survive a couple of hits without any problema and without them going anywhere (that is part of our strat), which means there is no need for a tank there. All those adds there are nuked in our strat, literally they dont last at all. void raid cost is stupid yes but i usually need 1 or 2 to finish stuff off cuz of the other gigantic burst dps. I am testing destro now, for aoe, but i could do it perfectly fine for sha of pride and immersus as demo. Altho, for immersus voidray is bugged and it gives a stack of that thing if it touches the boss.

 

It just feels that you are saying that my way of using demo for those fights is wrong. Our wipes are mostly because people forgot to close rifts/spread on the pride explosion, since add never casts, people are freed from the pacman before even reaching the first corner, and small adds dont hit/go anywhere.  I think the issue is mainly that for a 25 man group more sustained aoe is needed, however for a 10 man set up, everything has less hp so 1 person doing a bigger burst means adds will die faster. 

 

 

TL,DR:

Basically, In my opinion Demo burst is as good as Destro for stuff that dies fast and being in melee range is ok. H immersus, H sha. Stuff that last long affli rules, H protectors, H Galakras. And Destro is better at things that last moderately long/being at range is better/focus kill is needed, H galakras, H shamans. (I havent downed H shamans yet but in our tries and cuz of our strat only destro seems to be viable)

I've not once said that playing Demo is 'wrong.'  That's an interpretation on your part on how you read it.  My job here is to give the best possible advice on certain fights.  Your comfort with Demo may be higher than that of Destruction, so if you feel that you alone can take out that large add before it casts, kudos.  That thing has 6.7M HP, and I couldn't take it out alone, but I felt that Chaos Bolt with Havoc onto the Sha gave me the optimal amount of damage when switching to the Manifestation and the Corrupted Crystals.  2 Chaos Bolts and a Shadowburn made it so I was the highest contributor of damage by far, but I definitely got help from the Hunter, Mage, and Ele Shaman.  Sure, you can ToC or Soul Fire them and send your Felguard, but I see a couple of issues here...your Felguard has travel time.  If you're yanking him off of Sha to get in position for a quick stun, you're losing DPS with movement.  You're also unable to duplicate your nukes to both targets.  Wild Imps have no control button, so getting them to switch to Manifestation or the Corrupted Crystals is a task. 

 

My goal is to give the best advice for those who are looking to do the fight.  Is Demo viable?  Sure.  Do I think Destruction is easier to maintain, easier to burst, easier to control, and less troublesome to think about while learning and killing a Heroic fight?  Yep, I sure do.  What are your tanks doing in the fight if you're tanking the Reflections?

 

The damage you cause with one chaos bolt is more than the damage you cause with two Touches of Chaos. Even if I fire off two Touches and they crit, my minimum chaos bolt with no procs is more. I don't see how you can argue Demo has better burst on short living adds, unless the thing isn't going to live for more than a global (in which case, why are you in flex mode with that a 560 ilvl and why are you even bothering to switch?)

He's not entirely wrong, but your logic matches mine.  Like I said before, if his comfort with Demo is higher than his comfort with Destruction, he's playing the correct spec.  I have a 560 item level and I do Flex because there are still upgrades out of there.  Plus, my run one shots everything in like 90 minutes, so it's easy, free, and fun.

 

Im not talking about those big ones, I am talking about the super small ones that can die with an aoe rotation... of course destro is better at killing those.

Destruction is the spec of choice for me and what I advise for the Manifestations and the Corrupted Crystals.  Who even cares about Reflections?  Our tanks pick them up and we don't even bother.  If our tanks didn't pick them up, the fight would be incredibly boring for them.  The Manifestations and Corrupted Crystals are essentially the only difficult part of the fight...since Destruction was built for handling such, much like Ra-Den, there's your answer as to why I suggest Destruction.

 

Has it been decided when it's best to use Glyph of Havoc?

Yes.  If there is a fight where your opportunity to use Havoc comes ONLY once per 60 seconds, then you should use Glyph of Havoc.  Currently, I see no fights that present this situation.

[Kazistrasz 216]

It may be due to being our first kill last night on Malkorok (we actually got a lot of first kills last night, going in 5/14 and coming out 9/14), but I found Archimond's Darkness wasn't that great as Affliction on the fight, and I can't see it being much better for Destro. There's simply too much movement when avoiding Arcing Smash, getting into the purple swirlies, changing phases. I did substantially better on the attempts when I started using KJC.

[Rakupenda 15]

It may be due to being our first kill last night on Malkorok (we actually got a lot of first kills last night, going in 5/14 and coming out 9/14), but I found Archimond's Darkness wasn't that great as Affliction on the fight, and I can't see it being much better for Destro. There's simply too much movement when avoiding Arcing Smash, getting into the purple swirlies, changing phases. I did substantially better on the attempts when I started using KJC.

You were moving way too much then....You're 10 man, right? Maybe 25 man is more viable with more people spread out for soaking, and so 10 man KJC is preferred. Were you also assigned to soak orbs? If not, the orb's spawning animation happens a few seconds before the orb appears, which gives you time to judge and move as needed, possibly refreshing dots instead of Fel Flame. Or on the move cast your Twilight Ward ahead of pool soaking instead of casting it as they come out. Or (Glyphed) Life Tap. You don't have to exclusively cast Fel Flame when you're moving.

 

I think we were just so spoiled with KJC affecting all casts that we forgot how to plan movements efficiently. :\

[Kazistrasz 216]

You were moving way too much then....You're 10 man, right? Maybe 25 man is more viable with more people spread out for soaking, and so 10 man KJC is preferred. Were you also assigned to soak orbs? If not, the orb's spawning animation happens a few seconds before the orb appears, which gives you time to judge and move as needed, possibly refreshing dots instead of Fel Flame. Or on the move cast your Twilight Ward ahead of pool soaking instead of casting it as they come out. Or (Glyphed) Life Tap. You don't have to exclusively cast Fel Flame when you're moving.

 

I think we were just so spoiled with KJC affecting all casts that we forgot how to plan movements efficiently. :\

 

Yes, I raid 10-man. We just spread the ranged out and have whoever is closest grabs the ones outside of melee. That plus the moving for Arcing Smash just had me on the move too much. Again, part of that may be from it being our first night with him and possibly not having the best of strat (we didn't even expect to get to him last night by any stretch, one-shotting Jug and Shammies was quite the surprise).

[Rakupenda 15]

The only question that really matters is:
"Did the boss die?"

Yes.

Then your strat/damage was adequate.

 

Malkorok is a dps check and since you choosing KJC gave you more dps I'd say it was the right decision. I took KJC for many of the bosses first kills because it allowed me to focus more on handling boss mechanics correctly than planning my movement efficiently. When I got more comfortable as we progressed or on second kills I dropped KJC and began optimizing my movement. Maybe on your second kill/attempts you can fiddle with your personal strat and the Dark Soul may pump out more. *shrug*

[mediocregatsby 18]

probably not the right thread but assuming demo doesnt get any compensation buffs and we're playing aff/destro for all of 5.4, does our BIS still include 4pc t16? based on anecdotal evidence/logs it seems the 4pc bonus for aff and destro are fairly lackluster and the warforged pieces seem like better gains.

[JvChequer 43]

Why not both? =D

 

After u partners pick up all tokens, just make a dual-spec itens =d

[Nyanchan 2]

So, i ran all the heroic fights i used to do with demo as destro yesterday, and this is what i think:

 

(Keep in mind this is heroic 10 man, not 25, and its my personal opinion on how it was easier)

 

Immerus: Destro

Protectors: Affli

Norushen: Destro

Sha: Demo or Destro (depends on your focus)

Galakras: Destro or Affli (didnt really notice much of a difference)

Iron: Affli

Shamans: Destro

General: Affli

 

 

About sha: yes destro IS better for killing the big adds/shadow adds, but with your other range there should not be a problem with those. However demo anhilates the small ones so fast a tank is not needed. Then again destro has huge self healing, but demo can jump around and is less afected by movement.

 

 

PD: Why does wusholay ranks so high in mr robot? I had to upgrade twice my warforged garosh trink for it to be better than my heroic whusolay (according to mr robot). Is it because of the PPM?

[Twona 1]

Why are you destro for Shaman? I'm progressing through that fight now as Destro, and I'm thinking of swapping to affliction for more single target damage.

 

Are you destro for ooze damage? Our Ele shaman and hunter just destroy them.

[Lockybalboa 618]

Destro for ooze is common. That's what I ran for heroic also. More DPS on boss by having just one warlock do Oozes than using two other people doing them. For most comps at least, not all.

[Nyanchan 2]

Why are you destro for Shaman? I'm progressing through that fight now as Destro, and I'm thinking of swapping to affliction for more single target damage.

 

Are you destro for ooze damage? Our Ele shaman and hunter just destroy them.

 

If you dont need that much aoe damage on the ooze just swap MF for KC and your dps should still be higher, you can havoc the oozes all the time for super dps on the boss. Altho im not sure what strat u are using. Our guild splits in 2 teams and fight them away from each other.

 

Destro for ooze is common. That's what I ran for heroic also. More DPS on boss by having just one warlock do Oozes than using two other people doing them. For most comps at least, not all.

 

Yes exactly for this reason. 

[Zagam 1,982]

We one shot Heroic Shamans last night when I made the switch to Destruction.  Oozes are butter on the sidewalk in the middle of July with Destro hitting them. 

 

Also, Wush has an insane uptime and very high RPPM, but the 15k Intellect at 10 stacks doesn't compare to the 25k at 10 stacks for BBoY. 

 

Also, Affliction on Nazgrim is an interesting choice.  Tons of small adds to Shadowburn, and Chaos Bolt melts the Arcweaver's face before he does any damage.  Conflagrate is a great way to slow the Assassin, but Affliction has CoExhaustion.  To each their own...I pushed #15 Destro on our Heroic Nazgrim kill last night (2nd attempt, so I didn't get to pad with those adds at the beginning) and found the fight VERY favorable to Destruction's playstyle.

[Nyanchan 2]

We one shot Heroic Shamans last night when I made the switch to Destruction.  Oozes are butter on the sidewalk in the middle of July with Destro hitting them. 

 

Also, Wush has an insane uptime and very high RPPM, but the 15k Intellect at 10 stacks doesn't compare to the 25k at 10 stacks for BBoY. 

 

Also, Affliction on Nazgrim is an interesting choice.  Tons of small adds to Shadowburn, and Chaos Bolt melts the Arcweaver's face before he does any damage.  Conflagrate is a great way to slow the Assassin, but Affliction has CoExhaustion.  To each their own...I pushed #15 Destro on our Heroic Nazgrim kill last night (2nd attempt, so I didn't get to pad with those adds at the beginning) and found the fight VERY favorable to Destruction's playstyle.

 

In this weeks try i went destro to see, I believe it is really based on ur raid composition, if your raid is having trouble downing stuff that has priority fast, then destro is the way to go. if not I believe affliction does way more by having everything dotted up all the time. Still, as destro i did ok, I was testing if its possible to use the void walker to tank the spining guy. I got mixed results, sometimes it would stay on the void for a while, but others it just ignored it. I am not quite sure why. Then again destro has better execute on the last phase where you are just ignoring the adds and shadowburning the boss. I think its just raid composition and personal choice. 

 

By the way, as destro on shamans, I am inclined to think that KC is much better than MF here, even tho the rain of fire kills adds super fast, being able to cast aoe incinerate while on the move is priceless in this fight with so much movement.