Aleco

What's the Move? #10 - Zalae's Cubelock

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Aleco analyzes down a play from Zalae's stream in episode #10 of "What's the Move?".

Cubelock is my favorite deck of the new expansion. It's incredibly fun and challenging to navigate its numerous combos and synergies, and extremely deadly in the hands of a talented pilot. Luckily for us, there's Zalae! One of the best Hearthstone players on the planet, Zalae has been experimenting with Cubelock recently on his stream. For episode ten of "What's the Move?", I've broken down an interesting play from one of Zalae's recent streams:

"What's the Move?" is seeking viewer submissions for the future episodes! If you ever find yourself in a sticky situation on the ladder, please feel free to submit your plays, questions, and feedback to Aleco on twitter.

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Nice vid. Happy to see I made the same play as Zalae. 

Just hit legend playing cubelock myself. Pretty much the same list with beetle, taldaram and nether replaced by gnomeferatu, dirty rat and the darkness. Basically all teched in to improve the Raza priest matchup which I was having a lot of trouble with. I’d probably switch the gnome for a 2nd rat but the gnome seemed blessed so I stuck with him. The rat is also really good against some aggro decks, particularly aggro Paladin which I was facing a lot too. The Darkness instead of nether was a whim after dropping rank to priests, worked great for me. I wasn’t finding I often wanted to nether anyway, and blocking out raza and Kazakus for a while can really help. Also pretty annoying for all the spiteful summoner decks around, and quite handy in the mirror as you tend to draw most or all of your deck (though ooze/silence probably better anti-cubelock techs).

Tried taldaram for a bit but maybe should’ve given him a longer run. Tbh, hadn’t even thought of the copy-patches trick which i imagine is quite a common strong use of him.

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Warlock destroyed this patch... as I'm in rank 13 and I can't go 12 cuz of warlocks... I just get 4warlocks between every 6 matches 1 rogues and 1other classes..

Warlocks just draw cards and heal them self with cap minions then at mid they rec some strong minions with that 2/2 minion or clear the board with spells then say hello to death knight guldan and take a full board of strong demons which he just rec during the game like as voidlord or doom guard or that one which deals 1dmg to all enemy minions ... now he wins the match because u cant cleat this board becaude if u even destroy all they got deathrattles to summon smaller minions but maybe he needs some heal to make sure that 5armor and some hp was enough against enemy's spellso they added a great spell with 2mana as hero power deal 3 damage heal 3... gg warlock wins everything... I just tried to beat it with aggro secret and elemental mage and ctun and jade decks and i couldn't 

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It's hard to make us happy, I guess :D

I was disappointed all the time that Warlock was not really that great, maybe zoo but it gets boring after some time. Now as much as I like the new tools that warlock got when I play WL myself, the more I dislike to play against it.

I don't want to say warlock is unbeatable or OP now and I enjoy playing WL more than ever but it's definitely no fun to play against.

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10 hours ago, MZLICH said:

Warlock destroyed this patch... as I'm in rank 13 and I can't go 12 cuz of warlocks... I just get 4warlocks between every 6 matches 1 rogues and 1other classes..

Warlocks just draw cards and heal them self with cap minions then at mid they rec some strong minions with that 2/2 minion or clear the board with spells then say hello to death knight guldan and take a full board of strong demons which he just rec during the game like as voidlord or doom guard or that one which deals 1dmg to all enemy minions ... now he wins the match because u cant cleat this board becaude if u even destroy all they got deathrattles to summon smaller minions but maybe he needs some heal to make sure that 5armor and some hp was enough against enemy's spellso they added a great spell with 2mana as hero power deal 3 damage heal 3... gg warlock wins everything... I just tried to beat it with aggro secret and elemental mage and ctun and jade decks and i couldn't 

Well... you could play Warlock then ;)

Raza priest is pretty good against them. The kingsbane Rogue mill deck utterly destroys them. Big priest is pretty good against them. Tempo/Aggro oriented decks can win with a good start but you should tech in some stuff to help (ooze/silence/polymorph/sap/etc) but it’s gonna be tough, sure.

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10 hours ago, Bozonik said:

Well... you could play Warlock then ;)

Raza priest is pretty good against them. The kingsbane Rogue mill deck utterly destroys them. Big priest is pretty good against them. Tempo/Aggro oriented decks can win with a good start but you should tech in some stuff to help (ooze/silence/polymorph/sap/etc) but it’s gonna be tough, sure.

Really? I could play warock? What? Is this how warlock players explain their bugs on their cards? blizzard should remove that death knight guldan's battlecry and hero power n replace with some new ones.. I say this guy just puts death knight and bring his void lords and doom guards and other craps to life and gains great ability to deal 3damage and heal for same amount! !! And you talk about silence or polymorph?  OK may u tell me what I can do with them when he puts death knight card??? 

May somebody tell me is this fair to have such hero power and have 5 armor and bring all strong demonS to game with 10 mana(when just a void lord costs9)? Blizzard just killed paladins warriors shamans mage then hunters druids ... the only thing I see in ranked is many warlocks with same decks and finally rogues and priests...

well game is unbalanced and people who enjoy it,deny it...

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My move would have been Mistress of Mixtures + The Coin + Prince Taldaram into Mistress for additional +4 Health.

If he takes out my 3/3 with his Patches + dagger -> he used dagger and would not be able to play much minions.

If he takes out my 3/3 with Southsea Captain - great.

If the goes face and place some minions (or one big minion) I could use Hellfire if necessary.

 

Not saying that this would have been a good move - just what I would have done and my reasons for it.

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20 hours ago, Caldyrvan said:

Nice one, would have done the same :D

Do have a link for the full game vid? would be interesting so see it :)

Here you go!

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/210797293?t=00h52m34s

It's an interesting which is made much better by hearing his own commentary. I'd encourage you to check out his stream if he's ever live at a time convenient for you.

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Hi MZLICH, thanks for checking out my video and participating in the conversation about it!

I've noticed you've made a few comments about how Warlock is overpowered and ruining your ladder experience. I wanted to let you know that regardless of whether or not the class is overpowered or not, I think you could really benefit as a player by changing your outlook on the game:

14 hours ago, MZLICH said:

Warlock destroyed this patch... as I'm in rank 13 and I can't go 12 cuz of warlocks... I just get 4warlocks between every 6 matches 1 rogues and 1other classes..

2 hours ago, MZLICH said:

well game is unbalanced and people who enjoy it,deny it...

Speaking from my own experience, I've yet to encounter a deck on the ladder which has been able to hold me back from reaching Legend, let alone rank 12. This includes pre-nerf KFT Jade Druid, Highlander Priest, Pirate Warrior, and certainly Cubelock. Even if it is true that Warlocks are a big part of the reason you are struggling to climb ranks, there's absolutely nothing to be gained by convincing yourself that this is true. You have no control over what your opponent's choose to play, but you have much more control over the outcome of your own games than I think you realize.

It's okay to not enjoy a particular deck or strategy. Personally, I don't find Highlander Priest very interesting and often get frustrated when I lose to 24+ points of burst damage with Prophet Velen. If you want to dislike Cubelock and never play the deck yourself that's okay! However, convincing yourself that a single deck or class is holding you back from succeeding is only setting yourself up for failure, as it's far more likely that the choices you are making in-game (especially at rank 13) are determining the outcome of your matches. Try to focus on the things you can control, not on the things can't, and see where that can take you before concluding that the game is totally unbalanced and everyone who enjoys it is in denial.

Best of luck out there, and please don't hesitate to reach out to me for help during your climb!

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Thanks for the link :)

And what you said, I think it's not only a good advice for Hearthstone but a good one in general for a lot of situations in our lives :)

Mindset is an important part, that's why some (many? idk) players just take a break when they have or get bad mood. Getting back with a relaxed and fresh mind can help to see things differently or take them more easy.

But I understand MZLICH, they (the devs) have a talent to throw in things (e.g. Jade, Razadin, Exodia Mage, Patches) which are not only strong but very discouraging every time you face them. I know there will always be decks which are better than others etc. and HS is definitely not about thorough balancing and that's ok it's a part that makes HS what it is, but in my opinion it gets a little to extreme with some decks/combinations.

About Warlock, I often thought playing against a Warrior hiding behind his taunts is a boring play but now the WL shows how it's done and even better and more boring, too.

Edited by Caldyrvan
several typos :D
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3 hours ago, MZLICH said:

Really? I could play warock? What? Is this how warlock players explain their bugs on their cards? blizzard should remove that death knight guldan's battlecry and hero power n replace with some new ones.. I say this guy just puts death knight and bring his void lords and doom guards and other craps to life and gains great ability to deal 3damage and heal for same amount! !! And you talk about silence or polymorph?  OK may u tell me what I can do with them when he puts death knight card??? 

May somebody tell me is this fair to have such hero power and have 5 armor and bring all strong demonS to game with 10 mana(when just a void lord costs9)? Blizzard just killed paladins warriors shamans mage then hunters druids ... the only thing I see in ranked is many warlocks with same decks and finally rogues and priests...

well game is unbalanced and people who enjoy it,deny it...

I didn’t mean it in a confrontational manner. I’m not a ‘warlock player’, I like to play a mixture of everything.

But if you feel one deck is crazy strong compared to everything else, the best answer is to play that deck if you can. If you were right, you are playing the strongest deck. If you were wrong, you see from your losses how to beat it.

The DeathKnight card is very strong, yes, like most other death knights (priest one has had a much bigger impact on the recent metas than the Warlock one). How you beat it depends what you’re playing. If you play Aggro/Tempo deck, the aim is to win the game long before Turn 10 so the death knight is irrelevant. If you play a combo deck like raza priest, you take advantage of the fact the Warlock deck is very slow so you have time to draw into your combo pieces. If you play a control deck you aim to outvalue it. All those routes to victory are quite possible.

Sure, it’s a strong deck. But it’s not as unbeatable as you feel it is. Trust me, I’ve lost to pretty much everything with it :D

Edited by Bozonik

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Ehem.. I just got rank 8  after MSG came out just because of druid jade deck! i didn't know much about playing as druids and didn't like them too. I just searched sites about that new op jade deck... just copied it without reading strategies .. tried it and it was easy to win with it bcuz of druid's op decks and cards.. after while I just got bored and told myself I don't like druid very much and I'm a noob druid but I win almost of games cuz of these op crap cards not my mind or some strategies just because blizzard put some cards ALL named "jade cards" for my deck nothing else... I just believe variety of decks died after old gods patch... I just left game after 2weeks of MSG patch and I back 2days after this new patch to see if game is better than year ago and just saw this op warlock and worse thing! People even don't play shamans or warriors anymore(maybe 1between every 100 players) I just hope blizzard make the game balaned like old days when we were seeing variety of decks and classes not same heroes with same decks...

 

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9 hours ago, Bozonik said:

I didn’t mean it in a confrontational manner. I’m not a ‘warlock player’, I like to play a mixture of everything.

But if you feel one deck is crazy strong compared to everything else, the best answer is to play that deck if you can. If you were right, you are playing the strongest deck. If you were wrong, you see from your losses how to beat it.

The DeathKnight card is very strong, yes, like most other death knights (priest one has had a much bigger impact on the recent metas than the Warlock one). How you beat it depends what you’re playing. If you play Aggro/Tempo deck, the aim is to win the game long before Turn 10 so the death knight is irrelevant. If you play a combo deck like raza priest, you take advantage of the fact the Warlock deck is very slow so you have time to draw into your combo pieces. If you play a control deck you aim to outvalue it. All those routes to victory are quite possible.

Sure, it’s a strong deck. But it’s not as unbeatable as you feel it is. Trust me, I’ve lost to pretty much everything with it :D

I know I some times beat it down with aggro secret but just sometimes when they didn't get good starting decks... I'm talking about average I'm talking about that blizzard isn't working well because we see more than players average are taking warlock for ranked but if it's standard and balanced game people take anything(as we saw during naxx,brm,gvg,tgt patches if u remember)

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2 hours ago, MZLICH said:

I just believe variety of decks died after old gods patch... I just left game after 2weeks of MSG patch and I back 2days after this new patch to see if game is better than year ago and just saw this op warlock and worse thing! People even don't play shamans or warriors anymore(maybe 1between every 100 players) I just hope blizzard make the game balaned like old days when we were seeing variety of decks and classes not same heroes with same decks...

 

Well, MSG meta was very polarised, yes. Although not because of jade decks, which couldn’t compete with the aggro decks running the then new Patches. It was predominantly aggro pirates (mostly warrior and shaman) v Reno decks (mostly Warlock, Mage, Priest).

But the Karazhan meta prior to that had a huge amount of mid-range shaman.

Right now there appears to be a fairly diverse meta. The tracker on hearthpwn suggests currently 15% Warlock, 13% Rogue and Priest, 12% druid and the other five classes about 9% each.

Last expansion did cause a problem due to the powerful cards Druid got resulting in that figure going over 50% Druid at one point if I recall right, and forcing Blizzard to make some nerfs to rebalance things. I’m sure they’d do the same again if one class got out of control this meta. But it’s not really happening as far as I can see.

Edited by Bozonik

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52 minutes ago, Bozonik said:

Well, MSG meta was very polarised, yes. Although not because of jade decks, which couldn’t compete with the aggro decks running the then new Patches. It was predominantly aggro pirates (mostly warrior and shaman) v Reno decks (mostly Warlock, Mage, Priest).

But the Karazhan meta prior to that had a huge amount of mid-range shaman.

Right now there appears to be a fairly diverse meta. The tracker on hearthpwn suggests currently 15% Warlock, 13% Rogue and Priest, 12% druid and the other five classes about 9% each.

Last expansion did cause a problem due to the powerful cards Druid got resulting in that figure going over 50% Druid at one point if I recall right, and forcing Blizzard to make some nerfs to rebalance things. I’m sure they’d do the same again if one class got out of control this meta. But it’s not really happening as far as I can see.

There is no way that shaman and warrior sees as much play hunter, paladin or mage. Its just impossible. Like control warlock pushed any kind of warrior out of the meta and evolve shaman is weaker with all new high cost low stat do something shiny cards. On the other hand, spell hunter is better than anticipated thanks to the new secret and spellstone, and mage is the same thanks to another secret and its insane weapon. Paladin is the most viable aggro class right now, even more so than rogue and hunter.

I also have hard time believing that rogue and druid sees more play than paladin, but it might be possible.

Something is very, very wrong with tracker in Hearthpwn.

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20 minutes ago, FanOfValeera said:

There is no way that shaman and warrior sees as much play hunter, paladin or mage. Its just impossible. Like control warlock pushed any kind of warrior out of the meta and evolve shaman is weaker with all new high cost low stat do something shiny cards. On the other hand, spell hunter is better than anticipated thanks to the new secret and spellstone, and mage is the same thanks to another secret and its insane weapon. Paladin is the most viable aggro class right now, even more so than rogue and hunter.

I also have hard time believing that rogue and druid sees more play than paladin, but it might be possible.

Something is very, very wrong with tracker in Hearthpwn.

Yes, it seems somewhat off. Was lazy of me to refer to that one, just easiest to view, but I don’t know how they get their data. HSReplay should be pretty reliable though as it uses a tracker database of millions of games in Standard. They have over the last 7 days:

Priest: 23%, Warlock: 17%, Mage: 15%, Rogue: 11%, Hunter & Paladin: 10%, Druid: 7%, Shaman & Warrior: 3%

That seems similar to my experience, though personally I’d have expected Paladin to be higher too. It does include play from all ranks though so is a broader meta picture rather than our local metas. In any case, it still shows a fairly diverse meta (even priests high figure is split between summoner, raza, big and dragon archetypes rather than being one deck). Sure, Shaman and Warrior are currently pretty dead. But we’ve had a long spell of pirate warrior representing a significant chunk of the meta so personally quite happy to see a break from those. And Shaman had its time dominating the meta too, albeit a while back now.

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That was also my play.  Looking at the hand full of clunky cards, I definitely wouldn't want to play the coin, dropping void Lord a turn earlier is really important, the dark pacts are worthless unless you draw a lacky, taldaram is poor value sans some very niche uses, and defiles can be awkward to use.  So playing prince 3 gets a clunky card out of your hand, reduces the damage you take, letting you tap more later to find your lacky or skull.  On top of that saving your mistress almost guaranteed a defile clear next turn.  I would also make the read that the rogue has a solid play since they never punched you in the face.  Also playing mistress + tap would leave you very vulnerable to backstab plus minstrel. You are almost guaranteed to be clearing next turn, so it is a great turn for the rogue to load up on value.

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A little highjacking on this thread...

I just realized that I have every legendary off this deck - Thalnos, Spiritsinger, the Prince, the Skull and Bloodreaver - quite awesome, considering I have only between 4 and 7 legendaries out of the last 3 expansions.

I lack all the epics from the new set and I guess there is no good replacement for them.

But that is just 1600 dust.

Is there some kind of guide how to use this deck effectivly?

Still playing Jade Druid and playing another deck may be a nice change.

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10 minutes ago, WedgeAntilles said:

A little highjacking on this thread...

I just realized that I have every legendary off this deck - Thalnos, Spiritsinger, the Prince, the Skull and Bloodreaver - quite awesome, considering I have only between 4 and 7 legendaries out of the last 3 expansions.

I lack all the epics from the new set and I guess there is no good replacement for them.

But that is just 1600 dust.

Is there some kind of guide how to use this deck effectivly?

Still playing Jade Druid and playing another deck may be a nice change.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/209317608

Check this out. 

As far as I know, Dog is the first one who created this archetype, or at least the first one who became successful with it (Rank#1 legend) and in majority of this video, he plays the deck.

 

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Why not Coin + Hellfire to clear both minions? (Full disclosure: I thought it was "Prince Keleseth," and figured it was a choice between clearing his board and +1/+1 to your minions.  Mistress of Mixtures/Hero Power never occurred to me).  My guess is that it would be better to keep Hellfire when there are more of the opponent's minions on the board, and that leaving a 1/1 is no big deal.  I'm interested in what others with more experience have to say.

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13 hours ago, Huriphoonado said:

Why not Coin + Hellfire to clear both minions? (Full disclosure: I thought it was "Prince Keleseth," and figured it was a choice between clearing his board and +1/+1 to your minions.  Mistress of Mixtures/Hero Power never occurred to me).  My guess is that it would be better to keep Hellfire when there are more of the opponent's minions on the board, and that leaving a 1/1 is no big deal.  I'm interested in what others with more experience have to say.

The coin is pretty valuable in this deck so you want to hold on to it really. And leaving the 1/1 up is actually beneficial since with mistress and defile in hand it means we are likely to have an efficient clear for his next board too, whilst also retaining another defile and hellfire for later.

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