Jump to content
FORUMS
Sign in to follow this  
Oxygen

On Loot Boxes and Morality

Recommended Posts

As an interesting note.  I stopped playing HoTS almost completely; largely due to the heroes 2.0 change.  But as a long time MTG player, I have had no problem with hearthstone, despite it being largely the same.  I mean, it is completely understandable since I have been. . . indoctrinated into the randomness of collectable cards (and hey I can trade in 4 of these for one of the same rarity, can't do that in magic!).  Which I think just shows the potential dangers of this sort of system.  Once it becomes common place, we just sort of accept it for the norm and don't really question it.  

Edited by VaraTreledees
  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As long as it's just optional cosmetics I'm fine. Blizzard isn't as stupid as EA and actually respects the playerbase.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Oxygen said:
  • Random microtransactions exploit human behavioural weaknesses to generate significantly more profit than traditional transactions.

Nihil novi sub sole...

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Keizoku said:

Nihil novi sub sole...

Oh, I know, but loot boxes being relatively new makes them pretty unknown for most.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I love loot boxes. They helped me get rid of my gaming addiction and start enjoying real life again.

Thank you, gaming industry.

Sarcasm aside I think the real question isn't "are loot boxes a form of gambling" but rather are they designed to trigger dopamine releases in your brain - just like social media "likes" - in order to get you addicted.

I think the answer is obviously yes.

Edited by Scambug
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Being rewarded for playing the game, and not absolutely have to pay for ingame content, is for me a great motivation to keep playing. I like the excitement of getting the lootboxes. Even if there can be long between something really good comes up, I still want to collect it all, because of this system. Just keep them boxes comming my way :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A thoughtful post, but factually incorrect. Microtransactions have been part of gaming for longer than a decade. Commercial MUDs first pioneered RMTs and microtransactions (and the virtual goods model in general) far earlier. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As long as you're willing to pay monthly, Blizzard will respect you.
The only reason for a corporation is to make money to satisfy its investors.

If the players here are happy too, that can always continue.

But if the subscription rates go down, as with many similar games, they have to find another way to make their shareholders happy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Oxygen said:

Valve's logic was that by making their game mostly available for free, gamers would flock to the popular title in such numbers that even if only a small fraction of those players ended up spending, they would generate a profit.

They are not wrong. It is actually a really smart marketing strategy, and as you stated through your article, it is a way to "toy" with the human nature. Just like South Park showed us, people LOVE free stuff. "Wow, so I can play this awesome game without spending a dime? FUCK YEAH!"

From Valve's perspective, it's a win-win situation. With free games more people will play their stuff, spread popularity, so more people will play. And with their constant updates do TF2 they won the playerbase trust and loyalty; therefore the most loving fans will spend money at good will to support Valve. Which is not wrong. It's, all in all, a healthy relationship.

But everything changed when the Fire Nation EA attacked.

10 hours ago, Oxygen said:

One of the most typical aspects of competitive free-to-play games is that they almost ubiquitously require players to spend a steady amount of money to stay in the loop.

Yes, this is where things get fucked up. Hearthstone actually has a logic behind this because it tries its best to simulate a real-life card game experience, where one has to buy Boosters and Packs to find their desired cards. I'm not defending them, but sadly that is how it works. Predating on human basic instincts is something that is done since the dawn of humanity. Even the religion shows this with the Adam and Eve.

At least in Heroes of the Storm it's mainly cosmetics, which I'm perfectly fine with. Sure, I really REALLY want those Bucaneer Falstad and Maraudin Muradin skins, but that won't ruin my experience playing the game nor give me disadvantages.

10 hours ago, Oxygen said:

The human demand for gambling is undeniable.

Much like I said above, humans exploit their own basic instincts since the forever. If there are two things we can be certain about humanity is that we are ruled by boobs and gambling; it is an undeniable fact. Why do you think Bender's most famous quote is about "blackjack and hookers"?

__________________________________________________

Great article, by the way, as expected from our former Ducklord. I actually enjoy lootboxes by the fact that it doesn't force me to actually spend real money. As long they're not using cheap pay-to-win strategies as EA. Cosmetics are fine as lootbox contents.

Personal story below.

Spoiler

My first contact with lootboxes was through playing Mass Effect 3 Multiplayer, where it was pay-to-win situation, because lootboxes contained characters and weapons. However, since the multiplayer mode is a coop survival against waves of AI enemies, it is not as impactful because you'll be having fun regardless of not having the best equipment. Plus the game's leveling system can make your character have presence in the matches if you build them well. The only classes that are REALLY dependent on top-tier weapons are Soldiers and Infiltrators (the "physical-based" classes), while the other classes can be built around their Power-based cooldowns ("mage-like"), which generally means that a solid build can make a difference even if you have the shittiest gear. So in the end, it didn't matter to me because I liked the "mage-classes" better.

I don't (usually) really get obssessed and frustrated that I don't get one of those Legendary Skins I've been wanting for a long time, so when I finally get them without expecting anything, it is a pleasant surprise.

The only time I've spent money in Heroes of the Storm was to buy The Butcherlisk skin, and after doing so I felt very bad, using my hard earned cash to buy a virtual cosmetic in a game, specially since in Brazil the taxing on dolars really hurts, so skins' values were 3x as expensive. Like, "I could be using this money for something more useful".

Edited by Valhalen
  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One aspect I think is key to micro-transactions as a business model and possible as a whole is constructing a sense of legitimacy or "fairness", and the thought my brain ran away with while reading this post was how daily quests very cleverly tie something with arbitrary value to something with immutable or fixed value.

The rewards from daily quests or regular log-ins often have no actual value from their outset, their supply is limitless, it costs nothing to create or distribute them, their value is determined by how they fit into the rest of the system, how many funbucks do you need to save up for something with an actual gameplay effect.

But the reward is only one of the variables here, the other variable is time, the daily part, and since time waits for no man, this is a variable that wont bend no matter how seductively your credit card details oogle the premium currency menu. Time passes at the same rate for everyone.

The rewards, the arbitrary value, entirely controlled by the company in charge become seemingly based on a system of distribution that is forever equal in judgement, lending it a sense of legitimacy. "How could daily quests be unfair? Time has no bias."

While you could dispute if this gives a sense of fairness or even has any effect on the perception of things, it's hard to deny that by attaching something with value that would otherwise fluctuate with trends or, god forbid, be decided by the players themselves, to a universal aspect of how we experience life, the true value of the reward is greatly obscured, as to decide how much it is really worth, you would need to put a price on your time.

And deciding how much your time is worth is far easier for a team of analysts with a plethora of logistical data about buying habits, playtime, and gaming trends, than it is for someone who just wants to play a game and be entertained.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Valhalen said:

The only time I've spent money in Heroes of the Storm was to buy The Butcherlisk skin, and after doing so I felt very bad, using my hard earned cash to buy a virtual cosmetic in a game, specially since in Brazil the taxing on dolars really hurts, so skins' values were 3x as expensive. Like, "I could be using this money for something more useful".

Every time I spend the $50 dollars at the release of a Hearthstone expansion, I feel exactly the same way.  I really enjoy playing the game and unfortunately, you need to spend at least that $50 at the expansion release to keep up.  I play pretty regularly and when the next expansion is released, I generally have all the commons, all the rares and about half of the epics.  Usually 5-8 legendaries.  It feels so bad to be forced to spend this $50 dollars each time but without it, there is no way I could play and keep up.

 

8 hours ago, VaraTreledees said:

indoctrinated into the randomness of collectable cards (and hey I can trade in 4 of these for one of the same rarity, can't do that in magic!).

Vara, you are looking at this completely wrong.  Magic is a trading card game.  Hearthstone is not.  That is a huge difference in how much your duplicate cards are worth.  I'm not going to explain this for you as Alec here at Icy Veins already does for us.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, seeth07 said:

Vara, you are looking at this completely wrong.  Magic is a trading card game.  Hearthstone is not.  That is a huge difference in how much your duplicate cards are worth.  I'm not going to explain this for you as Alec here at Icy Veins already does for us.

You sort of missed my point.  Having played collectible card games for my entire life, I have grown accustomed to the random nature of them.  Which means when I started playing hearthstone, another card game, I never really questioned the loot distribution system.  It never bothered me, because that is how I expected it to work from previous card games.  However, I hated HotS's change to the loot system, despite being nearly identical to that of hearthstone (in fact it is arguably better since you are only gambling on random cosmetic things as opposed to stuff that actually affects the game play).The little quip about being able to trade them in for 1/4th the value was just me being glib.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, seeth07 said:
9 hours ago, VaraTreledees said:

indoctrinated into the randomness of collectable cards (and hey I can trade in 4 of these for one of the same rarity, can't do that in magic!).

Vara, you are looking at this completely wrong.  Magic is a trading card game.  Hearthstone is not.  That is a huge difference in how much your duplicate cards are worth.  I'm not going to explain this for you as Alec here at Icy Veins already does for us.

No, but as Vara said, you can trade 4 cards for 1 of the same rarity, So,  if you have 4 usless epics, you can dust they and craft the one you need...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, prankquean said:

A thoughtful post, but factually incorrect. Microtransactions have been part of gaming for longer than a decade. Commercial MUDs first pioneered RMTs and microtransactions (and the virtual goods model in general) far earlier. 

I'll certainly look into that and amend the post to reflect that if my findings are interesting enough. Thanks for the comment!

5 hours ago, Valhalen said:

Much like I said above, humans exploit their own basic instincts since the forever. If there are two things we can be certain about humanity is that we are ruled by boobs and gambling; it is an undeniable fact. Why do you think Bender's most famous quote is about "blackjack and hookers"?

Boobs, I can understand. Gambling is just... dopamine? Perhaps?

3 hours ago, Sepulchritude said:

One aspect I think is key to micro-transactions as a business model and possible as a whole is constructing a sense of legitimacy or "fairness", and the thought my brain ran away with while reading this post was how daily quests very cleverly tie something with arbitrary value to something with immutable or fixed value.

That's exactly why boxes might sound appealing; that's certainly an insidious I've fallen prey to myself. Something about my time being devalued so much.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Oxygen said:

Boobs, I can understand. Gambling is just... dopamine? Perhaps?

Pretty much. The unknown always mess with people's heads. And the idea of risking something in exchange of another of greater value also has a massive impact in the psyche because it can easily overdose one with dopamine and lead to addiction.

For example, gambling is severely strong in the Asian countries, specially in Japan, with the Gashapon and Pachinko machines. In a similar vein, in the Western people love slot machines and card games like poker and blackjack. You win once, win twice, and keep going, trying to win more. A paralel with Heroes of the Storm, for example, would be the reroll mechanic and pity roll, like you mentioned in the original post.

Sometimes I burn my gold with rerolls, because it runs pretty much like this: "Godamnit, 5 common items! Maybe if I reroll once I can get something useful. *Rerolls* Ok, there is 1 rare and 4 commons. I think I'll reroll just one more time to see if an Epic show up... *Rerolls* Whelp, no, 2 rares and 2 commons... Maybe just one more time. *Rerolls* FUCK, 5 commons again!"

Edited by Valhalen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I love them because i spend zero out of game money on them.

My only gripe is that paying coins to reroll one is a total crap shoot.  You could get something better or worse.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Scambug said:

I love loot boxes. They helped me get rid of my gaming addiction and start enjoying real life again.

Thank you, gaming industry.

Sarcasm aside I think the real question isn't "are loot boxes a form of gambling" but rather are they designed to trigger dopamine releases in your brain - just like social media "likes" - in order to get you addicted.

I think the answer is obviously yes.

PSA: Basically everything that you like triggers dopamine releases in your brain. That's why you like it. Saying something is "designed to trigger dopamine releases in your brain in order to get you addicted" is basically just describing anything meant to appeal to people.

That's not to downplay the seriousness of people's problems with addiction. I'm not here to make light of anyone's struggles. But lately people seem to throw around talk of dopamine and addictiveness as if it's inherently a bad thing, when in reality it's pretty much part of the basic functionality of human brains.

Regarding loot boxes, I'm not sure how they're much different than trading cards, randomized collectible figurines, etc. except that they're digital now. I do agree that the "gems"/pseudo-currency thing can feel pretty disgusting considering how easy it makes it to lose track of how much you're actually spending, but then again, is even that that much different than the longstanding marketing convention of ending prices in 99 cents so that your brain thinks of a $3.99 item as $3 rather than $4? The job of marketing departments has always been to manipulate people to get as much money as possible out of their pockets. Expecting them to be ethical while doing so is* somewhere along the spectrum of naive to bizarre.

TL;DR - The question isn't "Is this ethical?", it's "Is this something that should be regulated, and if so, how?"

For example, one could suggest that digital marketplaces (such as the HotS collections tab) which use pseudo-currencies ("gems") should be required to show real currency price conversions alongside the gem prices on all items.

*At least in my opinion. One could argue ad nauseam about business ethics, which I don't really want to get into here, but my stance is that corporations are inherently non-ethical entities. If we as consumers / society wish them to behave or not behave in certain ways, then it's our job to regulate them, not their job to behave ethically out of the goodness of their nonexistent hearts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, clepsydriska said:

*At least in my opinion. One could argue ad nauseam about business ethics, which I don't really want to get into here, but my stance is that corporations are inherently non-ethical entities. If we as consumers / society wish them to behave or not behave in certain ways, then it's our job to regulate them, not their job to behave ethically out of the goodness of their nonexistent hearts.

I agree with your post, but we run into issues, however, when the will of the people becomes disconnected with the political systems in place. One lobbyist having their way might void the opinion of a million individuals, just as one strange lawsuit decision (the Pokémon one) will forever affect future decisions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not really into gambling. I have not spent a dime on HotS (and I don't play other Blizzard games atm), and I don't plan on doing it. Never ever played the lottery, or even poker, blackjack, etc in my whole life.

Does that make me an alien?

I have, however, spent A LOT on Dota 2 cosmetics. That was because I could buy exactly what I wanted in the Community Market. I didn't risk losing money because of acquiring "a chance to earn something I wanted" as in a loot box, treasure chest, or whatever, but I spent money in buying exactly what I wanted.

Edited by Leadblast

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Leadblast said:

I have, however, spent A LOT on Dota 2 cosmetics. That was because I could buy exactly what I wanted in the Community Market. I didn't risk losing money because of acquiring "a chance to earn something I wanted" as in a loot box, treasure chest, or whatever, but I spent money in buying exactly what I wanted.

I think a lot of people are in the same boat, but I'll make the fair (I think?) assumption that randomized microtransactions just generate more profits. Heroes made the switch for a reason back in May.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/3/2018 at 10:16 AM, Dejo93 said:

As long as it's just optional cosmetics I'm fine. Blizzard isn't as stupid as EA and actually respects the playerbase.

Have you heard of hearthstone?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The things is... I have about 130 items in HoTS that I've never checked out. I couldn't care less about sprays and voicelines, I even removed their hotkeys. I care about skins somewhat, but not near enough to consider spending money on it. The only thing I care about is boosters and heroes, but they are extremely rare. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Makrangoncias said:

The things is... I have about 130 items in HoTS that I've never checked out. I couldn't care less about sprays and voicelines, I even removed their hotkeys. I care about skins somewhat, but not near enough to consider spending money on it. The only thing I care about is boosters and heroes, but they are extremely rare. 

I think this is a point many are neglecting; although Heroes does shower you with loot, it's generally very unappealing because most of it is fluff and overlaps; I have about 9 Zeratul skins, for instance, but I only ever use one of them.

DotA II was thinking ahead with its cosmetic system, and the Heroes devs certainly didn't pick up on that.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Similar Content

    • By Damien
      Today, we release our Path of Exile site. It is not entirely finished yet, but the content is there and we felt comfortable sharing it with Path of Exile players from our current audience.
      This is a project that we have been working on for quite some time (so nothing to do with the recent Diablo announcements or lack thereof). We developed a CMS from the ground up, using our many years of experience with Icy Veins as a basis for the various features we required on the publishing side of the site. We also added things such as a proper item database or a dev tracker. These are things we can't have on Icy Veins, because the tech the site is running on would not permit it. Hopefully, one day we can run Icy Veins on our new tech and do all these things, if we feel like it.
      As I was saying above, the site is not 100% ready, but it is very close in terms of features. We worked hard in the past two weeks to fix all major bugs, so that end users can have a smooth experience, and we have enough content to cover the currently most popular builds. So we are waiting for your feedback!

      Currently you will find the following things on the site: guides and news for Path of Exile, an item database (still missing out a couple of base items), a dev tracker (Official Forums + Twitter + Reddit), and of course forums where people can discuss about that game.
      Our guide offering is currently as follows:
      Triple Herald Blade Vortex Elementalist Build Arc Mines Saboteur Build Guide Glacial Cascade Mines Saboteur Build Guide Ancestral Warchief Ascendant Build Guide Ascendant Hit Elemental Build Guide Aurabot Ascendant, 8 Auras Build Guide The Cleave Ascendant Build Guide Herald of Agony Occultist Build Guide Frostbolt/Glacial Cascade Totems Hierophant Build Guide Uber Labyrinth Farmer Juggernaut Build Guide Rain of Arrows Deadeye Build Guide Tornado Shot Deadeye Build Guide The Baron Zombies/Skeletons Necromancer Build Guide Toxic Rain Pathfinder Build Blade Flurry Gladiator Build Guide Spectral Throw Raider Build Guide Cyclone Slayer Build Guide We also have a beginner guide for fresh exiles.
      With all that said, we're hoping to see you on that new website and are looking forward to your comments!
      Please welcome our newest website on Path of Exile!
    • By Shikhu
      We at Icy Veins are thrilled to announce the launch of our new section dedicated to in-depth guides and resources for Genshin Impact. 
      Our guides will provide character builds, team recommendations, weapon and artifact advice, battle strategies, open-world exploration, and more. We will go in-depth so Travelers can maximize their teams, progress further in Spiral Abyss, and get the most out of every part of the world.
      Here at Icy Veins, we pride ourselves on keeping our guides up-to-date and accurate with the latest information and game versions at all times. As miHoYo releases new regions, quests, characters and events, our writers will continually update content so it stays relevant.
      For the best Genshin Impact guides, with more on the way soon, visit www.icy-veins.com/genshin-impact . We can’t wait for fans to see what we have in store - this is just the beginning of our commitment to the Genshin community!
    • By Staff
      Join us on Twitch for the latest episode of the Icy Veins Podcast dedicated to Path of Exile with guests from our sister site PoE Vault.
      We'll be live today at 8:00 PM CEST on Twitch to talk about Path of Exile.
      Podcast Guests
      Petko (Mythic Guide Writer / Host) GhazzyTV (Guide Writer / Streamer) Velyna (Guide Writer / Streamer) PatrickHatTrick (Guide Writer / Streamer) Stream Link
      You can watch the podcast on Twitch.
    • By Staff
      In case you weren't aware of it, we have a specialized Discord server that focuses on ARPGs! This includes Diablo 4 of course, and the discord focuses on helping players who might have any questions relating to the featured games in general (Diablo 4, Path of Exile and Lost Ark) or our guides for them. And now the ARPG Vault has reached the 10,000 member milestone and is hosting a giveaway!
      The giveaway lasts until July 7th, and all you have to do to enter is:
      Head on over to the ARPG Vault Discord, Follow the onboarding process by picking a role/game when prompted, React to the emote in the giveaways channel!  
      5 winners will be chosen at random on July 7th at 22:00 CET. Each winner can choose to receive either a $30 Supporter Pack in Path of Exile, or $30 worth of Battle.net Balance.
      So head on over and join the community! You'll definitely find plenty of answers to any of your Diablo 4 (and other ARPG) questions, and might even win something while you're at it!
    • By Staff
      Stay awhile and listen. Today, we're proud to present you with the next chapter of Icy Veins.
      ICY VEINS BETA
      We've been hard at work behind the scenes fleshing out a new Icy Veins experience and today, we'd like to show you what the site will look like in the future.

      DISCLAIMER
      The website is still under development, so if you see something break, or have suggestions/feedback, we'd love to hear from you! You can contact us at contact(at)icy-veins.com or drop a message in our Feedback channel on Discord.
      REVAMPED DIABLO 4 EXPERIENCE
      The new design has been first implemented in our Diablo 4 section, ahead of the Server Slam and the game's launch on June 6. Below, you can see the new landing page, news section, and a sample guide as they appear on both desktop and mobile devices.
      Landing Page (Desktop)

      News Section (Desktop)

      Guide Page (Desktop)

      Mobile (Landing Page / New Section / Guide)
      The new design allows us to serve content on mobile devices more efficiently.

      Let us know your thoughts about the new design in the comments below!
×
×
  • Create New...