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[Archived] Destruction Warlock 5.4

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Guest Asthor

Read through the guide once more and had some thoughts.

Lke the guide says, single target wise we really aren't worth anything as destro locks, but as an aoe class we are one of the best (specially on fights with 7 or more adds) . So far we are on par with with demo locks for aoe (although better sustainability and less burst which has pros and cons) and only beaten by Death Knights (who can beat them really?)..

As we can maintain 4 embers constantly on that many adds (due to the fact that incinerates that are cast through Fire and Brimstone each generate burning embers. and this added with Mannoroth's Fury we can pretty much hit every add there is (Fire and Brimstone has a 34yd range that way). This can be highly useful in encounters such as Gar'jal the Spiritbender where a lock can go into the spirit realm.

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Also can add the fact that Orc warlocks gain 1% expertise from wands, just like gnomes from swords and daggers and humans from swords.

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Hai Guys,

Can any of you explain to my why I need to use expertise. Can't find it on the site. And I'm really wondering because I'm hit capped and still every site says that I need to reforg in to Exp.

I just really don't get it. Can spells be parried or something like that. Because I'm still a caster and I'm not gonna stand next to a boss and hit him with my staff/dagger.

So if somebody could explain it to me then pls.

As was already replied, Expertise now gives you spell hit Posted Image

Forgot the Healthstone on the defensive cooldowns section, especially if you have the glyph.. Unending Resolve, plus Dark Regeneration, plus a glyphed Healthstone and you go from 'dead' to 'full' in a few seconds, that's specially good on arenas.

Added. Thanks! Posted Image

"Currently, the talents are tuned in such a way that Posted ImageGrimoire of Sacrifice is the best Tier 5 talent and will be the default choice for Destruction Warlock"

the numbers im gettin right now on my destr lock isn't showing this. does it depend on what demon you sacrifice? with grimoire of supremacy and using my fel imp im pulling about 5-6k more dps than with grimoire of sacrifice (sacrificing my imp or my fel hunter), is anyone else getting anything different?

Can you explain why Grimoire of Sacrifice is better talent than Grimoire of Service and Grimoire of Supremacy for Destruction Warlocks ?

Thanks

There isn't an explanation really, it's all in the way the talents are tuned. As Zagam pointed out, simulation tools give Grimoire of Sacrifice slightly better than Grimoire of Supremacy (with the Observer). So you can choose whichever you want. The reason why I'm only advising Grimoire of Sacrifice is because the gap between Grimoire of Sacrifice and Grimoire of Supremacy is widening as you get better gear, so it may soon be the only possible choice.

Read through the guide once more and had some thoughts.

Lke the guide says, single target wise we really aren't worth anything as destro locks, but as an aoe class we are one of the best (specially on fights with 7 or more adds) . So far we are on par with with demo locks for aoe (although better sustainability and less burst which has pros and cons) and only beaten by Death Knights (who can beat them really?)..

As we can maintain 4 embers constantly on that many adds (due to the fact that incinerates that are cast through Fire and Brimstone each generate burning embers. and this added with Mannoroth's Fury we can pretty much hit every add there is (Fire and Brimstone has a 34yd range that way). This can be highly useful in encounters such as Gar'jal the Spiritbender where a lock can go into the spirit realm.

You should ask Zagam to add this to his "Mogu'shan Vaults Warlock style" thread Posted Image

Also can add the fact that Orc warlocks gain 1% expertise from wands, just like gnomes from swords and daggers and humans from swords.

I'd rather wait to get for a confirmation from Blizzard that this is intended.

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i cant seem to find a definite answer on wether to use spell_shadow_rainoffire.jpgRain of Fire for generating embers on single target rotation. so is it worth it (with low haste) or am i wasting a GCD?

Edited by hottrash

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Guest Tock

"Posted ImageDark Soul: Instability is your main DPS cooldown. It increases your critical strike chance by 30% for. Use it on cooldown and try to max out your Burning Embers before using it, so that you can castPosted ImageChaos Bolt as many times while your critical strike chance is increased"

c

Why would we try to cast as many guaranteed 100% crit chance chaos bolts during a 30% crit chance boost cd?

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i cant seem to find a definite answer on wether to use spell_shadow_rainoffire.jpgRain of Fire for generating embers on single target rotation. so is it worth it (with low haste) or am i wasting a GCD?

Never use Rain of Fire on a single target. The gain in DPS is equivalent to using Life Tap at 100% mana.

"Posted ImageDark Soul: Instability is your main DPS cooldown. It increases your critical strike chance by 30% for. Use it on cooldown and try to max out your Burning Embers before using it, so that you can castPosted ImageChaos Bolt as many times while your critical strike chance is increased"

c

Why would we try to cast as many guaranteed 100% crit chance chaos bolts during a 30% crit chance boost cd?

Read the tooltip for Chaos Bolt. Crit rating increases the damage of Chaos Bolt, so the 30% extra crit 'chance' also increases the damage. Chaos Bolt with no DS:Instability proc'd will hit for about 310k for me. With DS:I up, it hits for about 480k. If you want to really do some burst, pool your embers until you have at least 3. As you are building to your 4th, watch for trinket procs. When one (or both!) proc, use DS:I and start spamming the crap out of Chaos Bolt. I had a Chaos Bolt hit Zor'lok for 785k with Light of the Cosmos, Relic of Yu'lon, and a potion popped. DS:I makes Chaos Bolt a fearsome foe. It also greatly increases your ability to generate Burning Embers just by critting with Incinerate. Make sure you reapply Immolate with DS:I up in order to benefit from the tick crits.

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Guest Avarice

Just did a dps check on all the pets.

for Destro with the demon training glyph

Imp is first

Succ

then Fel

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Just did a dps check on all the pets.

for Destro with the demon training glyph

Imp is first

Succ

then Fel

How did you do a 'check' on this? Without any linked logs or proof, I would put much more faith into Simulationcraft's values than your assumed strategy of testing one pet for 30 seconds, another for 30 seconds, and another for 30 seconds, seeing a 200 dps difference and claiming you found a more powerful pet.

Regardless of your findings, if you take Grimoire of Sacrifice, you need not worry about a pet. If you're determined to play with a pet, they all do relatively the same amount of DPS. The difference from the best pet (Grim of Supremacy Observer = 94678) and the worst pet (Grim of Service Imp = 93142) is 1500 DPS, which is noticable but nothing to write home about. A more accurate look is how close the top 3 pets are. They're all within 500 DPS, so just skip on the Imp and you're fine.

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Guest avarice

How did you do a 'check' on this? Without any linked logs or proof, I would put much more faith into Simulationcraft's values than your assumed strategy of testing one pet for 30 seconds, another for 30 seconds, and another for 30 seconds, seeing a 200 dps difference and claiming you found a more powerful pet.

Regardless of your findings, if you take Grimoire of Sacrifice, you need not worry about a pet. If you're determined to play with a pet, they all do relatively the same amount of DPS. The difference from the best pet (Grim of Supremacy Observer = 94678) and the worst pet (Grim of Service Imp = 93142) is 1500 DPS, which is noticable but nothing to write home about. A more accurate look is how close the top 3 pets are. They're all within 500 DPS, so just skip on the Imp and you're fine.

If you want me to get a recount info i can just not sure how to post it up here.

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Guest Crazy

OK the Fel Imp with the glyph of Demon Training WILL have higher DPS than any other pet.

Reason is simple instead of one cast he does three and one of his three will normally be a crit.

Causing the Imps DPS to go up.

I have tested and retested this each run was for 5 minutes and it return the same result the Imp

with the Glyph is highest DPS pet because of his higher chance of getting crits.

For short fights trash ect. the differance will not be much but on boss fights it is a noticable differance

With out the Glyph his DPS drops a lot.

NOTE: If you use the Glyph your Imp will not have energy to use Cauterize thats your trade off.

This was tested was done using a Destro build

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Guest mohal

the problem with all those rotations is that, as far as i am concerned, they are pretty theoretical. they work surely beautifully against a dummy, or when you are soloing, on quest or in a dungeon. but in a skilled group you hardly have the time to use any channeled or slow spell. you mostly end up with a failed message. so you concentrate on doing as much damage as possible, as fast as possible. and that goes not only for warlocks, but for all the classes i have played.

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Guys, i always wanted to ask a question about destro locks - in single target fights RoF gives me about the same damage output as Immolate (7,5%) according to Scada (lvling lock, running dungeons @89). Can it be the "secret" second "DoT" of destruction spec? Sure it's short, but it has bonus damage if target is immolated and gives bonus BE generation. I'm asking simcraft-skilled guys, can you make some simulations that implement RoF in primary single target rotation and show us the results? Thx.

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Just did a dps check on all the pets.

for Destro with the demon training glyph

Imp is first

Succ

then Fel

Recount is inaccurate, use Scada. If you dont believe me, take stopwatch and measure damage done by every pet on dummy for 3 minutes yourself.

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OK the Fel Imp with the glyph of Demon Training WILL have higher DPS than any other pet.

Reason is simple instead of one cast he does three and one of his three will normally be a crit.

Causing the Imps DPS to go up.

I have tested and retested this each run was for 5 minutes and it return the same result the Imp

with the Glyph is highest DPS pet because of his higher chance of getting crits.

For short fights trash ect. the differance will not be much but on boss fights it is a noticable differance

With out the Glyph his DPS drops a lot.

NOTE: If you use the Glyph your Imp will not have energy to use Cauterize thats your trade off.

This was tested was done using a Destro build

All top Destruction Warlocks are using either Grimoire of Sacrifice or Grimoire of Supremacy + Observer. I have yet to see any of them using the Fel Imp.

Guys, i always wanted to ask a question about destro locks - in single target fights RoF gives me about the same damage output as Immolate (7,5%) according to Scada (lvling lock, running dungeons @89). Can it be the "secret" second "DoT" of destruction spec? Sure it's short, but it has bonus damage if target is immolated and gives bonus BE generation. I'm asking simcraft-skilled guys, can you make some simulations that implement RoF in primary single target rotation and show us the results? Thx.

How exactly do you want Rain of Fire to be introduced in the single-target rotation. For example, if I replace Incinerate by Rain of Fire, your DPS is divided by 3 (even though there is 99% uptime on Immolate), so I'm not certain it's what you meant Posted Image

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RoF uses one global and is not channeled. Stick it in anywhere after immolate is up.

but

if you go back to an earlier part of the thread, Zagam says "Never use Rain of Fire on a single target. The gain in DPS is equivalent to using Life Tap at 100% mana."

I have found 99.9% of his recommendations to be accurate based on fact/math. 8)

Though I am curious... If the damage is similar to Immolate (I was under the impression it was not), why not use it at the cost of a global. Free embers. Sadly I have not messed with SimCraft with the exception of using the standard tier14 import where RoF isn't even used to calculate total DPS.

As a Destro loc, I have never run out of mana during the Zor'lok (only boss I spam it on) encounter thanks to Pandaria's Jade Spirit enchant, so again we are talking about 1 global every cycle.

Guess the opener would look like:

CoE>Immolate>Conflagrate>ROF>Inc.Inc.Inc>Fel>Inc.Inc.Inc

pop DS:Instability-Trinkets and blow 2 Chaos Bolts for over 1 million damage in under 6 seconds.

Seriously that's the main reason I play destro in the first place... well besides ease of use. LOVE watching those 500k 600k crits

after the opener you play the backdraft game...

I actually wanted to post a question about this class. Would any of you recommend replacing shadowburn with Chaos @ less than 20%? I have tried using DS with both, only to be disappointed with the results of Shadowburn. I know it only takes a global so we we are talking 6 seconds - 4 embers total as opposed to 12 seconds - 4 embers.

Based on my spell damage (and what little understanding I do have) it should look like:

Shadowburn Instantly blasts the target for 4173 + 113339 = 117512 Shadow damage. 78,341 non crit DPS

vs.

Unleash a blast of chaos, causing 2682 + 72860 = 75542 Shadow damage. 25180 non crit DPS

Sadly, I never see Shadowburn Crits for over 400k... ever... and that's why I ask.

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Rain of Fire costs a global cooldown at the cost of a global cooldown of Incinerate. This is very inefficient for DPS against a single target. It also lasts a very short period of time and constantly refreshing it would be a huge mana loss. Ever use Rain of Fire in an arena match to find stealthies? Your mana management would be severely affected by using Rain of Fire on a single target.

The main advantage to using Shadowburn over Chaos Bolt in execute phase is the lack of a cast time. The 2.5-3.0 second cast time you're dealing with means you could use 2 Shadowburns in the time you'd cast 1 Chaos Bolt. This also provides mana back for you to spam Incinerate to generate Embers back quicker. If a target doesn't die 5 seconds after a Shadowburn, you get 15% of your mana back. That's pretty significant.

All I notice in your opening rotation is one RoF which would wear off in about 5 seconds. Do you REALLY want to add Rain of Fire back into your rotation every 4-5 casts? This, I believe, would be an even bigger DPS loss than we can talk about theoretically since it has a targetting reticle meaning you'd have to place your RoF each time as well.

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right on. its less than half the damage of Incinerate in a 2 second time frame. Plus, crits with Incinerate doubles the effect of ember generation.

You really need 3 targets to to see only a marginal DPS increase over casting one incinerate on a single target.

Because its not channeled i just felt its use was warranted. I was also thinking the total damage was doubled for Immolated targets instead of putting it to formula like I did below. hehe glad to see I was wrong. That's 1833 dps loss over the course of 6 seconds the spell is up on single target content (if my math is correct).

Incinerate deals [ 1,496 + 140% of Spell Power ] Fire damage every two seconds to an enemy.

and

RoF deals [ 267x2(immolate buff) + 25% of Spell Power x 2 ] Fire damage every two seconds to an enemy.

Not even close!

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Guest kappman22

once reaching hit cap do you want to reforge everything to crit?

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Guest Smokim

One macro i would recommend for destro locks is a mouseover havoc macro. i use mine all the time to apply havoc to a second target without having to worry about changing targets.

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Guest Ygorl

A quick note: Herbalism has traditionally (as far as I have seen, at least) been seen as a poor choice for DPSers looking to maximize output. However, the ability to stack Lifeblood with Dark Soul, trinkets, etc. makes it quite attractive. Using simcraft's BiS heroic profile, replacing Enchanting with Herbalism causes a drop in DPS of about 200. Using the BiS pre-heroic profile, it actually raises DPS by several hundred. The moral of the story is that it's actually quite balanced, and you don't need to feel embarrassed about raiding as Destruction with Herbalism.

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Guest yamichi khaz modan

i dont agree with these builds for destruction im seeing. first thing ya got right.. 15% hit, but next up is haste and mastery, i went the suggested route back whenthe expansion came out.. i was always last place dps.. then i thought screw u guys, and i went back to a haste build but instead of crit bonus i went mastry.. and wow im top dps on any raid im on! now this is for single target maximum fire power, which is any frigin boss in the game, try using ur aoe with the shards n crap but thats just for trash.. your main goal in any raid is to kill the boss, and majority of the time aoeing now isnt our strong point. with haste youre dps over 5min fights stays up there too, as for damage u should also be top there too, i can beat mages easy on my server, making 100k dps on any target is very easy and easy t sustain.. the rotations are correct.. but the stat builds are wrong, its hit, haste/mastry, crit.. crit is covered by youre self buff.. as for the pet, i use my imp but the enchanced one via the talent.. and set up a macro to make your pet shoot its fel shot, and the macro for incinerate works best, also tie in any trinkets and the crit buff into that same macro, and youre dps will be enormous!

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Guest Nytemare

i dont agree with these builds for destruction im seeing. first thing ya got right.. 15% hit, but next up is haste and mastery, i went the suggested route back whenthe expansion came out.. i was always last place dps.. then i thought screw u guys, and i went back to a haste build but instead of crit bonus i went mastry.. and wow im top dps on any raid im on! now this is for single target maximum fire power, which is any frigin boss in the game, try using ur aoe with the shards n crap but thats just for trash.. your main goal in any raid is to kill the boss, and majority of the time aoeing now isnt our strong point. with haste youre dps over 5min fights stays up there too, as for damage u should also be top there too, i can beat mages easy on my server, making 100k dps on any target is very easy and easy t sustain.. the rotations are correct.. but the stat builds are wrong, its hit, haste/mastry, crit.. crit is covered by youre self buff.. as for the pet, i use my imp but the enchanced one via the talent.. and set up a macro to make your pet shoot its fel shot, and the macro for incinerate works best, also tie in any trinkets and the crit buff into that same macro, and youre dps will be enormous!

What would this Hate Build you speak of?

Also I been running SimCraft and when it tells me what my stats are based off DPS is that for how I am enchanted, reforge at that time, or what I should plug into say AskMrRobot and reforge base on those stats? Also it seem GOSaC is stronger then having stronger demon, I saw in this thread mention of using GOServices so which one should I be using to get best results?

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i dont agree with these builds for destruction im seeing. first thing ya got right.. 15% hit, but next up is haste and mastery, i went the suggested route back whenthe expansion came out.. i was always last place dps.. then i thought screw u guys, and i went back to a haste build but instead of crit bonus i went mastry.. and wow im top dps on any raid im on! now this is for single target maximum fire power, which is any frigin boss in the game, try using ur aoe with the shards n crap but thats just for trash.. your main goal in any raid is to kill the boss, and majority of the time aoeing now isnt our strong point. with haste youre dps over 5min fights stays up there too, as for damage u should also be top there too, i can beat mages easy on my server, making 100k dps on any target is very easy and easy t sustain.. the rotations are correct.. but the stat builds are wrong, its hit, haste/mastry, crit.. crit is covered by youre self buff.. as for the pet, i use my imp but the enchanced one via the talent.. and set up a macro to make your pet shoot its fel shot, and the macro for incinerate works best, also tie in any trinkets and the crit buff into that same macro, and youre dps will be enormous!

I think that your understanding of stats needs to be revised. I think that the difference between the possible reforges as a Destruction Warlock is minimal. The difference in DPS between the most extreme reforges at PreRaid gear level is less than 1%. It's about 2% maximum at T15H level. That's why the guide now says that all stats are balanced.

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